Who understands and can explain the meaning of Romans 9:3-4?

[Guojing]

Not all Jews rejected their Messiah..........

They definitely were being provoked to jealousy with the Holy Spirit being poured out on the Gentiles.

Yes, what I meant was the Jews, as a nation, has rejected their Messiah. Thanks

 

[Lafftur]

Where does it say that God's plan for the Jews are set aside? Where did you get that from? What scripture backs up what you are saying?
Romans 1:11 states: "...Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin".

Romans 1:26 states "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:"

I'm thinking that you may want to recheck your scripture references............

Romans 1:11 King James Version (KJV)
11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;


Romans 1:26 King James Version (KJV)
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

 

[posthuman]

Are you aware of the distinction between Jew and Israelite and the relationship between Jews and Gentiles as it pertains to Israel? Of which of the twelve tribes of Israel do the Jews belong? And do you know the identity of the Gentiles Paul is referring to in the book of Acts?

She conceived again, and when she gave birth to a son she said,
"This time I will praise the LORD." So she named him Judah. Then she stopped having children. ​

(Genesis 29:35)
​

 

[posthuman]

Jews and Gentiles (The tribe of Judah plus the eleven other tribes, the Gentiles. In other words the lost sheep of Israel [Matthew 15:21] which were scattered abroad, not any other nation). Gentiles is not all nations.

in the NT what is translated as "gentiles" is the word "ethnos" which literally means "nations"

"Jew" is sometimes used to denote the southern kingdom: Judah and Benjamin -- some people include Levi also since Levites were living among all the tribes, without allotted land inheritance of their own. "Israelite" in this context denotes being of the northern kingdom.

in Romans 11:1 & also Philippians 3:5, Paul calls himself an Israelite -- specifically of the tribe of Benjamin. this is not using the southern/northern kingdom terminology, but speaking of "Israelite" as all of the 12 ((or 13)) tribes as one. seeing that in the very same chapter of Romans, in vv. 11-13, he makes mention of "gentiles" and pointedly contrasts them with "his own people" in verse 14, it is contradictory to believe that the word "gentile" is meant to refer to the northern kingdom since he uses what would have been 'northern kingdom' terminology, "Israelite" to refer to himself, being of one of the 'southern kingdom' tribes, i.e. 'Jew'.
he is quite obviously using the word gentile to describe non-Hebrews i.e. non-Israelite, non-Jew -- not physically descended from Abraham, but ((see Romans ch. 1- 5)) descendants of Abraham by faith, not necc. by blood.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon​

STRONGS NT 1484: ἔθνος​

​

ἔθνος, ἔθνους, τό:​

1. a multitude (whether of men or of beasts) associated or living together; a company, troop, swarm: ἔθνος ἑταίρων, ἔθνος Ἀχαιων, ἔθνος λαῶν, Homer, Iliad; ἔθνος μελισσαων, 2, 87; μυιαων ἐθνεα, ibid. 469.​

​

2. "a multitude of individuals of the same nature or genus (τό ἔθνος τόθῆλυ ἤ ἀρρεν, Xenophon, oec. 7, 26): πᾶν ἔθνος ἀνθρώπων, the human race, Acts 17:26 (but this seems to belong under the next entry).​

​

3. race, nation: Matthew 21:43; Acts 10:35, etc.; ἔθνος ἐπί ἔθνος, Matthew 24:7; Mark 13:8: οἱ ἄρχοντες, οἱ βασιλεῖς τῶν ἐθνῶν, Matthew 20:25; Luke 22:25; used (in the singular) of the Jewish people, Luke 7:5; Luke 23:2; John 11:48, 50-53; John 18:35; Acts 10:22; Acts 24:2 (), ; .​

​

4. (τά ἔθνη, like הַגויִם in the O. T., foreign nations not worshipping the true God, pagans, Gentiles, (cf. Trench, § xcviii.): Matthew 4:15(Γαλιλαία τῶν ἐθνῶν), ; (3 John 1:7 R G; cf. Revelation 15:3 G L T TrWH marginal reading after John 10:7), and very often; in plain contradistinction to the Jews: Romans 3:29; Romans 9:24; (1 Corinthians 1:23 G L T Tr WH): Galatians 2:8, etc.; ὁ λαός (τοῦ Θεοῦ, Jews) καί τά ἔθνη, Luke 2:32; Acts 26:17, 23; Romans 15:10.​

​

5. Paul uses τά ἔθνη even of Gentile Christians: Romans 11:13; Romans 15:27; Romans 16:4; Galatians 2:12 (opposite Galatians 2:13to οἱ Ἰουδαῖοι, i. e. Jewish Christians), Galatians 2:14; Ephesians 3:1, cf. Ephesians 4:17 (Winers Grammar, § 59, 4 a.; Buttmann, 130 (114)).​

 

[Waggles]

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that kill the prophets, and stone them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Matthew 23:

 

[posthuman]

the word gentile to describe non-Hebrews i.e. non-Israelite, non-Jew -- not physically descended from Abraham, but ((see Romans ch. 1- 5)) descendants of Abraham by faith, not necc. by blood.

that is, having been offered grace to become children of Abraham even though being "gentile"

"not all Israel is Israel" ​

 

[posthuman]

What are the scriptures really saying? Will all nations be saved?

Yes, ALL Israel shall be saved. Jews and Gentiles (The tribe of Judah plus the eleven other tribes, the Gentiles. In other words the lost sheep of Israel [Matthew 15:21] which were scattered abroad, not any other nation). Gentiles is not all nations. This is why verse 26 emphasizes that all Israel shall be saved. If you have any doubt about this read the following scripture:


What nation of People will be saved?
Isaiah 45:17 which states: But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.


What tribe of Israel shall be saved?
Jeremiah 23:6 which states: In his days Judah shall be saved , and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called , THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Who shall be saved?
Romans 9:27 which states: Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved.

Paul is desiring that who be saved? All nations? Let's see:

Romans 10: 1 which states: Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is , that they might be saved. (Paul is preaching about Israel to the Gentiles? Wake up. He's preaching to the lost sheep of Israel. The Gentiles are the lost sheep of Israel. See Matthew 15:21)

What nation shall receive repentance and forgiveness of sins? All nations? Let's see:
Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

John preached to what nation of people concerning repentance?
Acts 13:24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.

The bible is clear throughout about who God's chosen people are, who is going to be saved, who is going to receive repentance, forgiveness of sins, who the covenants are given to, who will receive the promises and who will inherit the kingdom. Let's stop playing games.

Yeah let's stop playing games, for sure.


Deuteronomy 32:21
They made me jealous by what is no god and angered me with their worthless idols. I will make them envious by those who are not a people; I will make them angry by a nation that has no understanding.

This is written before there was any split in the kingdom of Israel - before they ever even entered the land.
And it speaks of salvation to a people who are not Hebrew at all.

So.

 

[oldethennew]

so true Mr. Post,
some wonderful and insightful posts here...

DEAU. 32:44.
And Moses came and spake all the words of this song in the ears of the people, he, and Hoshea the son of Nun.
like it is written in REV. 15:3.
And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of The Lamb, saying,
Great and marvellous are Thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are Thy ways, Thou King of saints.

 

[Sipsey]

I'm thinking that you may want to recheck your scripture references............

Romans 1:11 King James Version (KJV)
11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;


Romans 1:26 King James Version (KJV)
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

Yea, I don’t see how this convo can end well, when it starts off on the wrong verse!

 

[Deade]

"Jew" is sometimes used to denote the southern kingdom: Judah and Benjamin -- some people include Levi also since Levites were living among all the tribes, without allotted land inheritance of their own. "Israelite" in this context denotes being of the northern kingdom.

Do not confuse the people that have settled the land and call themselves Israel with the real Israel of God's choosing. They should call themselves Judah for that is their real identity.

The Southern Kingdom of Judah consisted of what we call Jews today. The following is a paragraph from Wikipedia describing their makeup:

“Israel continued to exist within the reduced territory as an independent kingdom subject to Assyria until around 725–720 BCE, when it was again invaded by Assyria and the rest of the population deported. The Bible relates that the population of Israel was exiled, leaving only the Tribe of Judah, the Tribe of Simeon (that was "absorbed" into Judah), the Tribe of Benjamin, and the people of the Tribe of Levi who lived among them of the original Israelite tribes in the southern Kingdom of Judah.”

Levi was only partly absorbed as there were many more serving in the Northern Kingdom when they were led captive. Benjamin was mostly absorbed but history says some of them went off with the Northern captivity. Therefore only two tribes are totally accounted for in the South (Judah and Simeon). Thus, 10 tribes are still lost. But not to God.

 

[amikamisrael]

Yea, I don’t see how this convo can end well, when it starts off on the wrong verse!

The conversation will end very well. My previous posts were clearly typos. Here are the correct scriptures:

Romans 11:1
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.


Romans 11:26
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

 

[posthuman]

Do not confuse the people that have settled the land and call themselves Israel with the real Israel of God's choosing. They should call themselves Judah for that is their real identity.

The Southern Kingdom of Judah consisted of what we call Jews today. The following is a paragraph from Wikipedia describing their makeup:



Levi was only partly absorbed as there were many more serving in the Northern Kingdom when they were led captive. Benjamin was mostly absorbed but history says some of them went off with the Northern captivity. Therefore only two tribes are totally accounted for in the South (Judah and Simeon). Thus, 10 tribes are still lost. But not to God.

Don't confuse being saved with being ethnically Hebrew..
If this guys conversation is correct then being found in Christ is a matter of having a DNA test come back positive, not of faith.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Romans 9:3-4 states:
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants,and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Paul specifically states that he wishes he could be cursed, in place of all his physical brothers (israel) to whom WAS GIVEN the adoption, The glory f having had christ come through them, All the covenants (abraham, Mosaic, Davidic and a few others) the law (through moses) and the service of God (which they had failed thus-far) and the promises (some of which are still binding even today)

 

[garee]

I'm sensing some jealousy..................... I do believe God's plan is working.......

The Israelites provoked God to jealousy so many times with false idols............... I do believe He is dealing with Israel as a lover of their souls.

In the New Jerusalem that is coming...... only the Wall is made up of the 12 tribes of Israel, everything else is all nations, tongues and people.

Interesting that even today.............. only the Wall remains in Israel....... I believe it is called the wailing wall.......

So, who's crying now........... sorry, just putting some salt on some jealousy wounds....

I would offer walls represent all the saints on this side of the cross typified as sent ones( apostles) . A picture of the great commission sending the gospel out using 12 a remnant of all the apostles. Gates for entering into the holy place are reckoned as tribes .Together walls and gates make up the bride of Christ the church.

The literal walls like gates like tribes lost there purpose as a shadow when the veil was rent . The reformation has come.

 

[amikamisrael]

What you have described is The Wall that will surround the New Jerusalem.

Allow me to re-quote:

Romans 9:3-4

For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Paul makes reference to "my kinsmen ....WHO are Israelites; to WHOM...". He's talking about PEOPLE here. Please explain how you walk away from that verse believing that Paul is making reference to a wall. Make no mistake about it, the consensus doctrine of other nations will be destroyed very soon.

 

[Waggles]

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying,
In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
Galatians 3:

 

[Waggles]

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Galatians 3:

 

[posthuman]

What are the scriptures really saying? Will all nations be saved?

Yes, ALL Israel shall be saved. Jews and Gentiles (The tribe of Judah plus the eleven other tribes, the Gentiles. In other words the lost sheep of Israel [Matthew 15:21] which were scattered abroad, not any other nation). Gentiles is not all nations.

For that grace of God,
that bringeth salvation unto all men,
hath appeared
(Titus 2:11)​

​

@amikamisrael i am wondering if you have yet considered anything i have told you?

 

[Melach]

This is the correct understanding of Romans 3:4:

The honor given by God to be his chosen people belong to the Israelites.

The presence of God as manifest through the ark and the temple belongs to the Israelites.

The covenants of God belong to the Israelites

The laws of God were given to the Israelites because they belong to the Israelites.

The service of God through the keeping his laws, statutes, and commandments belong to the Israelites

The promises (Salvation, Repentance, and Forgiveness of Sins, and Kingdom of Heaven) belong to the Israelites.

Paul is emphasizing that all these things belong to Israel not any other nation.

dear friend. are you a black hebrew israelite? GMS? or british israelism? i am not asking in spite, but to learn where you stand, friend.

 

[dcontroversal]

Romans 9:3-4 states:
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants,and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

This is a very bold statement and boils down to a simple truth.......and I some what understand this truth when I think of my handicapped son.....I would give up my salvation if i knew for sure it would result in my son being saved.......that is the jest of what he states......Paul would give it up and be accursed from Christ if it would result in the KINSMEN (JEWS) of PAUL being saved.........For the sake of MY SON....I would do the same because I love him that much......