Some truth about speaking in tongues, the Holy Ghost, spiritual gifts and 1 Corinthians 14

[Noose]

Never studied it out, but am certainly going to. Thanks.

Please do but remember, Jonah's sign was for a perverse generation.

 

[SpoonJuly]

Don't profess to know everything. Never will either-just on a journey.

May I ask more questions ?
Are their exception to the necessity of water baptism for salvation?
What about death bed conversions or one who is not physically able to be baptized?
If there are exceptions, would that not make multiple paths to salvation?
Interested in your take on this.

 

[Wansvic]

May I ask more questions ?
Are their exception to the necessity of water baptism for salvation?
What about death bed conversions or one who is not physically able to be baptized?
If there are exceptions, would that not make multiple paths to salvation?
Interested in your take on this.

I am not ignoring you, just need to take a break. Will get back to you.

 

[garee]

God's Word never contradicts itself. Action accompanies belief. And I am not talking about OT laws. I am referring to NT instructions:
"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." James 2:18-19

Jesus words clearly depict belief requires action:
Matt 28:19-20
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:

Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

We have the imputed confidence of Christ as the Son of man,.(Philippians 1:6) He was faithful to work the will of the father .His three day labor of love or work of faith completely satisfied the just demands of the law.

James 2 informs us even the devil believes in one God but is not subject to salvation as mankind so they have no understanding how it works and no hope.. The ones that did not leave their first place habitation long to look into grace as a wonderment.. The ones that did leave tremble knowing there end is certain.

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?James2:19-20

Not Christ's work of faith it has plenty of Spirit life, the work he performed was perfect revealing the faith he had as a hope became complete a or perfect also. This is to demonstrate the faith of God (What God believes) and the work of God are inseparable. What he says comes to pass . The "mark" or signature of His word. We have a privilege to work with that which does mutually work in all.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?James2:21

According to the context of that parable beginning with a warning in James 2:1. the commandment do not have the unseen faith of Christ in respect to man seen .verse 7 informs us those who do blaspheme the name by which they are called. That I believe sets the standard for the rest of the chapter. Using two witnesses to establish his point, that faith without works has no life to offer .Rehab and Abraham. Abraham who is used to typify our unseen father, and Isaac to typify the Son of man the father and son working mutually together (Isaiah 53) It justified the Spirit of Christ within. It faithfully worked just as in Rehab and Abraham as the same Spirt of Christ. The same faith of Christ spoken of in Romans 1 that mutually worked in two to bring the gift that comforted both. .His Spirit witnesses to our new spirits

Note... my (addition)

Seest thou how faith (Christ's) wrought with his(Christ's) works, and by (Christ's) works was (Christ's) faith made perfect? James2:22

See how the faith of Christ worked with his works and by works His faith was made complete. He did not just say something and not move to prove the mark of his word.

And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.Ye see then how that by (Christ's) works a man is justified, and not by (Christ's) faith only.James2:23-24

Our new faith is not without the works of Christ, our faithful Creator. He is our rest. he promises us he will not forget the good works we do offer towards his name. Do all things without murmuring and disputing.

Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James2:25-26

No spirit, no works.
know the spirit, know the works of it.
Imputed faith = imputed righteousness.

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputingshilippians 2:13-14

I find it interesting how that verse ends. It is like a faithful father or in my case a Mom telling the 9 children..... fight nice a picture of grace.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

I do think that people object to the concept that plain old water could cleanses one's sins. I would too.

I believe the thing people misunderstand is that God created John the Baptist to announce the coming messiah and to introduce the baptism of repentance for the remission of sin and therein lies the significance of water baptism. Scripture tells us that by the Pharisees refusing it they were in fact rejecting the counsel of God:

"But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him."i
I do, however, believe it is part of the spiritual birth process.

It may sound foolish to some that they need to immerse in a body of water to receive something from God. But we know that whatever God commands in His Word is commanded for a reason.

well Wansvic, I happened to remember a thread you had started called
OT Circumcision a foreshadow of NT of NT water baptism

I did not remember that you were the one that created that op or I would have disagreed sooner

it seems you have quite a few thoughts on water baptism that I really do not agree with. I don't agree with what you are saying about water baptism in this thread, your conclusions on Peter's words and I certainly do not agree with your observations in the OT circumcision as a foreshadow of NT water baptism

I think I will pass on discussing this further with you, apart from the fact this thread is pretty much diverted from the original op
started by Kelby

I see no point in rehashing the same thing we discussed in your other thread with my conclusion being I believe you are incorrect

please do not try to dissuade me by stating what you think people think and how they are wrong

because at the end of the day? I am left kind of bewildered as to how you think these things

you are free to think them, but I think, that is my personal thought, is that you should stop telling everyone they are wrong and then posted alot of scripture to attempt to illustrate your conclusions

let's leave it at that if you can.

I disagree with your conclusions and that includes what you said about water baptism in your other thread

 

[7seasrekeyed]

you can read my thoughts on the matter in that thread if you want to Wansvic

I respectfully ask you to please leave me out of your thoughts on water baptism

thanks

 

[Scribe]

Hi Kelby, you claim to teach the truth.
I have an earnest question about the Holy Spirit and the combination with the gift of speaking of tongues.
Why this is taught since the pentecostal movement started in the beginning of the 20th century?
But I cant find this teaching in any epistels to the church.
What i can find, is that special events, out of pentecost, in which special groups (samarians acts 8, gentiles acts 10 and disciples of John acts 19) received the Holy Spirit with laying their hands on them and speaking in tongues as it was reportet in acts 2 to the jews.
But only this reports says nothing about that this will be in future an expierience for all believers.
And when I add 1.Cor.12 30 to this. Where clear the statement is that not all believers will get the gift of speaking in tongues, as not all believers get the gift of healing.
How then it can come to such a teaching that the receiving of the Holy Spirit is combined with the gift of speaking in tongues?

A revival of truth that began at the turn of the century should not be discounted only because it began in the early 1900s any more than we should discount the reformation movement simply because it began in the 15th century. We don't find scriptures telling us that the Catholics will take over the visible church, lock up the scriptures in Latin until the time of the reformation movement when men like Martin Luther would be instrumental in getting the scriptures into the hands of the people so that they could REDISCOVER the truths about salvation by faith in Jesus Christ and reintroduce the concept that people can, and should read the word of God for themselves. The "modern Pentecostal movement" that began in the early 1900s was simply a part of church history, such as the reformation movement. It is the history of the saints rediscovering the truths in the bible about this subject that had not yet been satisfactorily explained since the time of the reformation. The reformation was a process that in some ways is still going on. We are still trying to find our way back to the book of Acts examples that were lost when that hellish system of popery took over and attempted to replace the Word of God for the myriad of lies that have since, been exposed by the truth in the scriptures, by humble saints who search the scriptures in an effort to establish all rules of faith and practice on the hermeneutically accurate interpretation of scripture. Also, it is important to know that throughout church history there has been a traceable thread of believers who reported belief in the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the gift of tongues but who did not write as did the Roman Catholics so that what we read about them is from the opposition who labeled them heretics and falsely accused them of all kinds of sacrilegious practices that considering the source of the accusers we now have good reason to suspect they may have been very much like our modern day Pentecostals in faith and practice but severely maligned by the Roman Catholic liars with pen and vellum.

 

[Waggles]

https://trffresno.org/

 

[Scribe]

For those who are only now learning about speaking in tongues, I'd like to make a few points and bring several scriptures to your awareness.

If I'm not mistaken, there are only four play-by-play accounts that STATE exactly when, or at what point, the Holy Ghost is poured out upon the people being discussed. Feel free to point out any other scriptural accounts that i missed. The 4 accounts that I'm thinking of are Acts 2:4, Acts 8:17, Acts 10:44, and Acts 19:6. Please read each entire account because they are important, but I just referenced the individual verses stating that the Holy Ghost is being poured out at this specific moment on these individuals. (Other ways of saying this are "Baptized with the Holy Ghost" and "received the Holy Ghost")

Those four accounts are enough to test several things we've thought or been told about the Holy Ghost and/or the role of speaking in tongues. If there are others, we should run our beliefs through them as well. I believe a correct belief should be able to pass through them all.

I would add Acts 9:17 When Paul was baptized in the Holy Spirit. It does not mention that he spoke in tongues in this text, however we know he said that he spoke in tongues more than all the Corinthians and based on these scripture examples you have listed , we can be confident that it was the laying on of hands by Ananias and the baptism of the Holy Spirit that answers the question,
" WHEN did Paul received the gift of tongues."

 

[fredoheaven]

You cessationists are a joke.
here you are on CC denying the truth of scripture, the gospel and Pentecost while Jesus is completely ignoring your protests
and out in the real world thousands and thousands of people are embracing both water baptism and Holy Spirit baptism with
the evidence of speaking in new tongues; and enjoying numerous miracles and healings immediately.

God cares not for your unbelief.

The bible does not teach baptismal regeneration. Water baptism cannot take away sins. It is the blood of Jesus. Since Christ had already served the Cross, the good news message centers his death, burial and resurrection. While water baptism display the gospel being a symbolic or like a figure, it is not a part or give grace. The grace salvation will always center Christ and his works this is the gospel we preach and stand and saved. NO water baptism mention. My admonition is to check yours with open mind and received the en grafted words which are able to save souls.

1 Cor. 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

 

[wolfwint]

A revival of truth that began at the turn of the century should not be discounted only because it began in the early 1900s any more than we should discount the reformation movement simply because it began in the 15th century. We don't find scriptures telling us that the Catholics will take over the visible church, lock up the scriptures in Latin until the time of the reformation movement when men like Martin Luther would be instrumental in getting the scriptures into the hands of the people so that they could REDISCOVER the truths about salvation by faith in Jesus Christ and reintroduce the concept that people can, and should read the word of God for themselves. The "modern Pentecostal movement" that began in the early 1900s was simply a part of church history, such as the reformation movement. It is the history of the saints rediscovering the truths in the bible about this subject that had not yet been satisfactorily explained since the time of the reformation. The reformation was a process that in some ways is still going on. We are still trying to find our way back to the book of Acts examples that were lost when that hellish system of popery took over and attempted to replace the Word of God for the myriad of lies that have since, been exposed by the truth in the scriptures, by humble saints who search the scriptures in an effort to establish all rules of faith and practice on the hermeneutically accurate interpretation of scripture. Also, it is important to know that throughout church history there has been a traceable thread of believers who reported belief in the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the gift of tongues but who did not write as did the Roman Catholics so that what we read about them is from the opposition who labeled them heretics and falsely accused them of all kinds of sacrilegious practices that considering the source of the accusers we now have good reason to suspect they may have been very much like our modern day Pentecostals in faith and practice but severely maligned by the Roman Catholic liars with pen and vellum.

Thank you for explaining, but it is to weak. Before the 1900 you find this teaching that speaking in tongues is the Proof that you are baptised with the Holy Spirit ore filled with the Holy Spirit, Not, as you dont find this teaching in the scripture taught to the First Church believers.

Today this seems to be the most important teaching which point you to be a real believer ore not.
It Wonders me that this important teaching is nowhere mentioned in the bible. It Wonders me not, that you cant find it in the churchhistory Till 1900.
Because it is not bible teaching.

 

[garee]

I would add Acts 9:17 When Paul was baptized in the Holy Spirit. It does not mention that he spoke in tongues in this text, however we know he said that he spoke in tongues more than all the Corinthians and based on these scripture examples you have listed , we can be confident that it was the laying on of hands by Ananias and the baptism of the Holy Spirit that answers the question,
" WHEN did Paul received the gift of tongues."

Paul received the gift of tongues . As Saul he refused to believe all things written in the law and prophets alone (sola scriptura) They as faithless Jews insisted in a law of the fathers as the manner of spirit that comes by walking sight. Previously Paul as Saul he followed that upside down manner of spirit. as in kill the misperceived competition .This is as if we did wrestles against flesh and blood. The out of sight out of mind religion of the pagan world . When Paul kicked against the pricks of sola scriptura it awoke his conscience by giving him a new spirit and new heart. No longer was he part of the affects of the poison of false apostles brining their false prophecy as he was before he was given new faith to believe. He spoke in new tongues prophecy the gospel of salvation was never interested in speaking in that tongue.(gospel tongue) . It had the power to raise Paul from the dead as sign that followed and then in turn Paul turned to defend all things written in the law and prophets and those who once supported the work of Cain who murdered the first martyr. Now were tying to murder Paul.

 

[Wansvic]

you can read my thoughts on the matter in that thread if you want to Wansvic

I respectfully ask you to please leave me out of your thoughts on water baptism

thanks

No problem.

 

[Wansvic]

Was the thief on the right hand of Jesus baptized?
The thief and the disciples are more than 2-3 witnesses already, enough to establish that water baptism is not a requirement.

Established concepts are witnessed by one another by what is recorded at least 2-3 times, not vice versa. (2 Cor 13:1)

 

[Wansvic]

We would all do well to consider Jesus' words, no matter the topic:
"Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein." Mark 10:15

Childlike faith is seen in one's eagerness to believe and act in obedience to the Word of God rather than try to understand everything beforehand.

 

[Wansvic]

You are obviously wrong about the OT and the NT things but about resurrection, what do we do with this part of the scripture?

Matt 27:50When Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, He yielded up His spirit. 51At that moment the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth quaked and the rocks were split. 52The tombs broke open, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people.

It clearly says Jesus resurrected that very moment that He died.

Someone said this discussion should not be taking place on this thread.
I studied this last night and will respond to you on the thread The Keys to the Kingdom, if you like.

 

[Noose]

Someone said this discussion should not be taking place on this thread.
I studied this last night and will respond to you on the thread The Keys to the Kingdom, if you like.

It's ok but i'm not sure i'll get any notification.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Welp this thread went from a tongues thread to a salvation by water through the hands of man thread

 

[Wansvic]

May I ask more questions ?
Are their exception to the necessity of water baptism for salvation?
What about death bed conversions or one who is not physically able to be baptized?
If there are exceptions, would that not make multiple paths to salvation?
Interested in your take on this.

God alone is Omniscience.
There are concepts within the Word that point to possible answers. However, there is no evidence that I am aware of that give definitive answers to your questions.

Will be happy to discuss this in a different thread if you like. Just let me know.

 

[Wansvic]

It's ok but i'm not sure i'll get any notification.

After opening The Keys to the Kingdom thread in the Bible Discussion Forum click on the upper right hand box titled "Watch"