Sacrifice

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Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
23,460
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#1
Have you ever had to sacrifice anything?
Is obedience better than sacrifice?

I was thinking this as I was reading the story of Abraham. Would he have had been called to sacrifice Isaac if he'd obeyed God in the first place? But no he had Ishmael..and had to send him away because sarah feared Isaac wasnt going to inherit Gods promises.

If abraham had not gone ahead and had Ishmael with Hagar, God may have not asked him to sacrifice Isaac.

Likewise, if the Israelites had actually obeyed God first, maybe Jesus wouldnt have had to give his life as a sacrifice.

If adam and Eve had obeyed God in the first place, a lamb wouldnt have had to give its life to clothe them.


Something to think about. Moral of story trust and obey. Otherwise you may need to sacrifice something you love to pay for your sin of disobedience.
 
S

SpoonJuly

Guest
#2
It was not Israel's sin that made the sacrifice of Jesus necessary, but ALL mankind's, beginning with Adam, and includes you and me.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,602
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#3
Yes, I have sacrificed things. It's hard, until you remember that they are just things, and ultimately are God's anyway.

Isaac was a picture of Christ. I don't think his near-sacrifice has anything to do with Ishmael. God said to Abraham, "Take now your son, your only son, whom you love, Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering...." (Gen 22:2)
 
A

AuntieAnt

Guest
#4
First of all, if Sarah was patient and trusted God to make a way for Abraham to have many descendents, she wouldn't have given her Egyptian slave girl to her husband to bear a son in her place. And Ishmael would not have been born and there would be peace in the Middle East. Maybe. But who knows, seems people find reasons to war no matter what.

Anyhow... I have sacrificed plenty of things. And yes, if I had trusted God and obeyed Him in the first place, I wouldn't have had to sacrifice most of the things I did. So I guess I'm no better than Sarah, Abraham's wife.

Nevertheless, God knew I didn't have it in me to blindly follow Him and that I needed His guidance and love to heal me of depression, fear and doubt. If I hadn't have gone through the trials I did, I wouldn't know what a Great Father, Merciful Healer, and Kind Shepherd the Lord is.

Yeah, it's better to obey than sacrifice. :giggle:
 

CharliRenee

Member
Staff member
Nov 4, 2014
6,693
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#5
Often obedience calls for sacrifice.
 
A

AuntieAnt

Guest
#6
Often obedience calls for sacrifice.
I get your point. But when He gets us to the place where we can obey Him without complaining and with complete trust in His loving will, it's no longer a sacrifice. ❤

It's only ever a sacrifice when we trust in or love something/someone more than Him.
 

CharliRenee

Member
Staff member
Nov 4, 2014
6,693
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#7
I get your point. But when He gets us to the place where we can obey Him without complaining and with complete trust in His loving will, it's no longer a sacrifice. ❤
Hmmmm, point taken. Wow that is good auntie@It's only ever a sacrifice when we trust in or love something/someone more than Him. And if He is where He ought to be in our lives, any thing He asks should be a privilege and honor.

To do righteousness and justice is more acceptable to the Lord than sacrifice.
Proverbs 21:3 ESV
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
23,460
7,188
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#8
Yes, I have sacrificed things. It's hard, until you remember that they are just things, and ultimately are God's anyway.

Isaac was a picture of Christ. I don't think his near-sacrifice has anything to do with Ishmael. God said to Abraham, "Take now your son, your only son, whom you love, Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering...." (Gen 22:2)
I think it does as Abraham had already sent Ishmael away at this point.
 
Apr 15, 2017
2,867
653
113
#9
1Sa 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
1Sa 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

Obedience is better than sacrifice, for if you do not obey then the sacrifice does not count in your life, which the Bible is speaking of the sacrifice of animals, which would also be the sacrifice of Jesus, for if you do not obey by doing the will of God to repent, and turn from sin, then the sacrifice of Jesus does not count in your life, which is why the Bible says if we wilfully sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth, hold unto sin, being disobedient, then there is no more sacrifice for sin, for the blood of Christ cannot wash it away.

And when we come to God we sacrifice the ways of the world that we had that we enjoyed according to the flesh, the outer person that is seen.

We sacrifice bragging and boasting.

We sacrifice exalting ourselves above other people.

We sacrifice belittling people, and cutting people down.

We sacrifice being rich, and having many material things, all in an attempt to brag about ourselves.

We sacrifice worldly entertainment, and fleshy pleasures.

We sacrifice the fighting, and arguing, and beating the crap out of a person that we enjoyed while in the world to exalt ourselves.

We sacrifice the ways of the outer person that is seen to exalt ourselves above people, and to try to appear better than them, and to enjoy the ways of the world in money, and material things, and fleshy pleasures, and worldly entertainment, and travel, and fine cuisine.

But many who claim Christ do not make that sacrifice as they are trying to still enjoy the ways of the outer person that is seen, which they have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof.

Heb 11:24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
Heb 11:25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season.

For there is pleasure according to the flesh when we are in the world, but we sacrifice that pleasure, and Moses refused being called the son of Pharaoh's daughter to identify with the people of God, and suffer affliction with the people of God, rather than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season.

Exo 2:13 And when he went out the second day, behold, two men of the Hebrews strove together: and he said to him that did the wrong, Wherefore smitest thou thy fellow?
Exo 2:14 And he said, Who made thee a prince and a judge over us? intendest thou to kill me, as thou killedst the Egyptian? And Moses feared, and said, Surely this thing is known.

Gen 43:32 And they set on for him by himself, and for them by themselves, and for the Egyptians, which did eat with him, by themselves: because the Egyptians might not eat bread with the Hebrews; for that is an abomination unto the Egyptians.

Also Moses was not the man that many people think he was that they think he was great in the kingdom of Egypt, and a prince, and maybe take over the throne in Egypt.

But look how the Hebrews talked to Moses, saying who made you a prince, and a judge over us, for the Hebrews knew Moses was a Hebrew.

Moses knew he was a Hebrew, and Pharaoh, and the Egyptians knew he was a Hebrew, and the Egyptians look down on the Hebrews, so Moses was only a lowly Hebrew that did not have to be a slave for being the daughter of Pharaoh, but not anything great in Egypt, for they would not permit him to be anything great.

There was nothing in Egypt for Moses anyway for he was a lowly Hebrew to the Egyptians, and being the son of Pharaoh's daughter did not change that for he was not Egyptian.

But many people think he was great in Egypt, but he was not, and Moses was considered a lowly Hebrew, but he still got to have it better than the other Hebrews for being the son of Pharaoh's daughter.

Movies, and animated movies, portrays Moses as a man of influence, and power, in Egypt, calling him the prince of Egypt, but it is not true, for Pharaoh would not let a Hebrew have any kind of position of power in Egypt, and the Egyptians looked at the Hebrews as lower than them, and Moses did not want it anyway if he could have it choosing to suffer affliction with the people of God, his people, rather than enjoy whatever benefits he did get being the son of Pharaoh's daughter.

God wanted to see if Abraham would offer his son, which Abraham was going to do, but God stopped him, to see if Abraham loved Him more than the physical life of his son.

Which God loves us more than the physical life of His Son, the man Christ Jesus, and sacrificed Him for the salvation of the world.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
23,460
7,188
113
#10
1Sa 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
1Sa 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

Obedience is better than sacrifice, for if you do not obey then the sacrifice does not count in your life, which the Bible is speaking of the sacrifice of animals, which would also be the sacrifice of Jesus, for if you do not obey by doing the will of God to repent, and turn from sin, then the sacrifice of Jesus does not count in your life, which is why the Bible says if we wilfully sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth, hold unto sin, being disobedient, then there is no more sacrifice for sin, for the blood of Christ cannot wash it away.

And when we come to God we sacrifice the ways of the world that we had that we enjoyed according to the flesh, the outer person that is seen.

We sacrifice bragging and boasting.

We sacrifice exalting ourselves above other people.

We sacrifice belittling people, and cutting people down.

We sacrifice being rich, and having many material things, all in an attempt to brag about ourselves.

We sacrifice worldly entertainment, and fleshy pleasures.

We sacrifice the fighting, and arguing, and beating the crap out of a person that we enjoyed while in the world to exalt ourselves.

We sacrifice the ways of the outer person that is seen to exalt ourselves above people, and to try to appear better than them, and to enjoy the ways of the world in money, and material things, and fleshy pleasures, and worldly entertainment, and travel, and fine cuisine.

But many who claim Christ do not make that sacrifice as they are trying to still enjoy the ways of the outer person that is seen, which they have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof.

Heb 11:24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
Heb 11:25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season.

For there is pleasure according to the flesh when we are in the world, but we sacrifice that pleasure, and Moses refused being called the son of Pharaoh's daughter to identify with the people of God, and suffer affliction with the people of God, rather than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season.

Exo 2:13 And when he went out the second day, behold, two men of the Hebrews strove together: and he said to him that did the wrong, Wherefore smitest thou thy fellow?
Exo 2:14 And he said, Who made thee a prince and a judge over us? intendest thou to kill me, as thou killedst the Egyptian? And Moses feared, and said, Surely this thing is known.

Gen 43:32 And they set on for him by himself, and for them by themselves, and for the Egyptians, which did eat with him, by themselves: because the Egyptians might not eat bread with the Hebrews; for that is an abomination unto the Egyptians.

Also Moses was not the man that many people think he was that they think he was great in the kingdom of Egypt, and a prince, and maybe take over the throne in Egypt.

But look how the Hebrews talked to Moses, saying who made you a prince, and a judge over us, for the Hebrews knew Moses was a Hebrew.

Moses knew he was a Hebrew, and Pharaoh, and the Egyptians knew he was a Hebrew, and the Egyptians look down on the Hebrews, so Moses was only a lowly Hebrew that did not have to be a slave for being the daughter of Pharaoh, but not anything great in Egypt, for they would not permit him to be anything great.

There was nothing in Egypt for Moses anyway for he was a lowly Hebrew to the Egyptians, and being the son of Pharaoh's daughter did not change that for he was not Egyptian.

But many people think he was great in Egypt, but he was not, and Moses was considered a lowly Hebrew, but he still got to have it better than the other Hebrews for being the son of Pharaoh's daughter.

Movies, and animated movies, portrays Moses as a man of influence, and power, in Egypt, calling him the prince of Egypt, but it is not true, for Pharaoh would not let a Hebrew have any kind of position of power in Egypt, and the Egyptians looked at the Hebrews as lower than them, and Moses did not want it anyway if he could have it choosing to suffer affliction with the people of God, his people, rather than enjoy whatever benefits he did get being the son of Pharaoh's daughter.

God wanted to see if Abraham would offer his son, which Abraham was going to do, but God stopped him, to see if Abraham loved Him more than the physical life of his son.

Which God loves us more than the physical life of His Son, the man Christ Jesus, and sacrificed Him for the salvation of the world.
Wow interesting take MattJesus. To think God loved us so much more he was willing to give up his one and only son for all of us. His son was absolutely perfect and sinless, and we are so not.

I was thinking it would have been no sacrifice to give up Ishmael, after all he wasnt the one that was promised. It would have been a sacrifice to give up Isaac, because he was the promised one.

But I think God asked abraham to give up Isaac because He was was thinking about Ishmael too. And indeed Ishamel was blessed and became the father of many princes so, all was not lost.

The interesting thing was Isaac did not protest, or at least its not recorded in the Bible he objected to this. What great faith Isaac must have had, to know that he could have been sacrificed. He willingly was laid on the altar and bound. He may have known whatever happened, God would raise him. Or maybe he just believed his dad when he said God will provide Himself a lamb.

Lambs in general do not protest as they are slaughterd or sacrificed. Unlike pigs that squeal and yell. They willingly lay down their lives.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,465
6,722
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#11
Obedience is our due, never a scrifice. The only sacrifice we are told to give to our Maker is that of thanksgiving, for all proceeds from HIm andnone other...
 

noblenut

Junior Member
Nov 29, 2017
265
90
28
#12
Have you ever had to sacrifice anything?
Is obedience better than sacrifice?

I was thinking this as I was reading the story of Abraham. Would he have had been called to sacrifice Isaac if he'd obeyed God in the first place? But no he had Ishmael..and had to send him away because sarah feared Isaac wasnt going to inherit Gods promises.

If abraham had not gone ahead and had Ishmael with Hagar, God may have not asked him to sacrifice Isaac.

Likewise, if the Israelites had actually obeyed God first, maybe Jesus wouldnt have had to give his life as a sacrifice.

If adam and Eve had obeyed God in the first place, a lamb wouldnt have had to give its life to clothe them.


Something to think about. Moral of story trust and obey. Otherwise you may need to sacrifice something you love to pay for your sin of disobedience.
your assumptions about Ishmael are completely wrong, Ishmael was also part of the prophecy because God said Abram will be the father of many nations, if Abraham only had Isaac he would have only been the father of one nation but he is the father of many nations through Ishmael as well as Isaac
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
23,460
7,188
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#13
your assumptions about Ishmael are completely wrong, Ishmael was also part of the prophecy because God said Abram will be the father of many nations, if Abraham only had Isaac he would have only been the father of one nation but he is the father of many nations through Ishmael as well as Isaac
Really, but abraham did have further children with Keturah..however it was only Isaac that God established the covenant with. Also God said Sarah would be the mother of nations, kings of people shall be of her. See genesis 17:6

I may be wrong, but the Bible is not wrong. Am quoting what the Bible says, not my opinion.

Note that God appeared to abaram again AFTER Ishamel was born to repeat the promise to abram and sarah. And he told them to circumcise their promised son when he is eight days old. At the time Ishamel was already 13 years old, and abraham 90 they still got circumcised. Abaraham fell on his face and laughed about the news of Isaac being born, but because he cared about Ishamael he asked what would become of him, see genesis 17:18

Read the genesis story again. Ishamael actually wasnt part of the prophecy, to begin with, but God did bless him anyway. It was because abram and sarah disobeyed God in that area by rushing on ahead and getting a surrogate birth.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,951
13,615
113
#14
I get your point. But when He gets us to the place where we can obey Him without complaining and with complete trust in His loving will, it's no longer a sacrifice. ❤

It's only ever a sacrifice when we trust in or love something/someone more than Him.
I think, when we realize that we have nothing that wasn't given to us, then it becomes 'not really sacrifice' - - or rather, sacrificing becomes no longer any kind of struggle over selfishness.

He gives and He takes away; still i will praise Him ;)
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,602
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#15
I think it does as Abraham had already sent Ishmael away at this point.
Perhaps you could explain the connection you think is there, but which is not stated in the text?
 
Mar 21, 2019
487
163
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#16
Really, but abraham did have further children with Keturah..however it was only Isaac that God established the covenant with. Also God said Sarah would be the mother of nations, kings of people shall be of her. See genesis 17:6

I may be wrong, but the Bible is not wrong. Am quoting what the Bible says, not my opinion.

Note that God appeared to abaram again AFTER Ishamel was born to repeat the promise to abram and sarah. And he told them to circumcise their promised son when he is eight days old. At the time Ishamel was already 13 years old, and abraham 90 they still got circumcised. Abaraham fell on his face and laughed about the news of Isaac being born, but because he cared about Ishamael he asked what would become of him, see genesis 17:18

Read the genesis story again. Ishamael actually wasnt part of the prophecy, to begin with, but God did bless him anyway. It was because abram and sarah disobeyed God in that area by rushing on ahead and getting a surrogate birth.
So why would Abraham circumcise all the males, if God's covenant was only with Isaac?

Genesis 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
Genesis 17:23 And Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house; and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him.

I acknowledge verse 21 which states "But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year." But the context seems to me to be that God's covenant with Abraham is for all of his house, although it is through Isaac that his offspring would be reckoned.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
23,460
7,188
113
#17
So why would Abraham circumcise all the males, if God's covenant was only with Isaac?

Genesis 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
Genesis 17:23 And Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house; and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him.

I acknowledge verse 21 which states "But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year." But the context seems to me to be that God's covenant with Abraham is for all of his house, although it is through Isaac that his offspring would be reckoned.
Thats a good question I dont know but thats what God wanted. Its God who establishes the covenant, not Abraham. And He wanted to do it through Isaac.
I gues abrahams circumcision, Ishmaels and all others were a 'token' circumcision. Wheras Isaacs circumcision was the one God wanted (at eight days old) to establish. Why eight days, I think maybe to signify that he was perfect after 6 days creation and a days rest perhaps?
And also maybe to abraham wanted to be obedient, which is why he circumcised everyone in his household.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,465
6,722
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#18
The covenant is through Isaac, then Jacob called Israel, and the Twelve Tribes………….from thence to the nations.

All who understand know this covenant is the New Testament long before the law was given.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
23,460
7,188
113
#19
The covenant is through Isaac, then Jacob called Israel, and the Twelve Tribes………….from thence to the nations.

All who understand know this covenant is the New Testament long before the law was given.
Yea I think some people seem a bit confused over what a covenant is or means.

Maybe we need to take another look exactly what a convenant with God entails.

Many people seem to think its up to man to make it, but actually its initiated by God.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,465
6,722
113
#20
Yea I think some people seem a bit confused over what a covenant is or means.

Maybe we need to take another look exactly what a convenant with God entails.

Many people seem to think its up to man to make it, but actually its initiated by God.
It seems to me it is a witness and testimony of that witness. That is a witness and testimony of the promise of the Gospel which was first given to Abraham, and then passed down as described in my post 18, but perhaps someone else could describe it better…...