Why Christians get a bad rap amongst the Jews...(an example)

[crossnote]

John 5:43 https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/5-43.htm the way it was spoken in Greek is how it should be determined as spoken because if we suggest how he would have said this in English we would end up looking at it in the language he did say it in. Then we would remember that Jesus was Hebrew and the Jews he spoke to also and that he might have spoken to them in Hebrew and the Gospel was in Greek.

Most likely Jesus spoke in Hebrew, maybe Aramaic, but whatever He spoke was recorded years later in Greek. Yet that agreed upon fact establishes nothing in and of itself. The Greek verb tenses would easily be known by those recording the words of Jesus. Even if you what to contend that the correct translation is 'when' it still by no means establishes the belief that He was referring to the antichrist or the false Messiah.

The Lord is speaking to Jews who did not receive him as the Messiah they were waiting for . And so it would seem to me that if Jesus is speaking of who they were or were not receiving saying they did not receive him as the Messiah then it could only mean that if they did not receive him as the Messiah they obviously would still be looking for one to afterwards come and receive him instead.

This is true, this is your best argument yet on the point. (let me look back why we are discussing this matter in the first place. LOL). Ah, found it.! Ok, even if your above argument is correct, that does not preclude the AC from being a Roman, and I believe I've given credible evidence from Daniel 9 why I believe he is Roman...which btw, I don't recall you addressing per se.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

"that's funny since (JUDEA) was not a (NATION)" yet that political movement had the power to crumble nations long before they did.

Oh, What nation did they crumble? I mean the UN had to give them the land..

 

[iamsoandso]

Most likely Jesus spoke in Hebrew, maybe Aramaic, but whatever He spoke was recorded years later in Greek. Yet that agreed upon fact establishes nothing in and of itself. The Greek verb tenses would easily be known by those recording the words of Jesus. Even if you what to contend that the correct translation is 'when' it still by no means establishes the belief that He was referring to the antichrist or the false Messiah.


This is true, this is your best argument yet on the point. (let me look back why we are discussing this matter in the first place. LOL). Ah, found it.! Ok, even if your above argument is correct, that does not preclude the AC from being a Roman, and I believe I've given credible evidence from Daniel 9 why I believe he is Roman...which btw, I don't recall you addressing per se.

Yes that's what I meant about the possibility based on Greek/Jewish in post #309 but after the gathering back after being scattered(a jew who grew up in a Greek speaking place and who spells his name in Greek). None of the Caesars of Rome would seem to fit this though and none of them sat in the temple and did the things the things from Thess. you gave. Jesus said "when you see the AoD spoken of..." they were to flee and not enter Judea so if it were the Crucifixion the Christians would have fled then but did not until many years afterward.

The Apostles in Acts 15 were still in Jerusalem And in Acts 21 so by their actions they did not see the AoD as present nor the temple as polluted by it but instead remained and were taking part in offerings at the temple. This is why I brought up Acts 21 when speaking of the Jews not permitting a gentile in the temple(pollute it) and think that when this does take place the Jews will not let just anyone in it and will only let a Jew inside. If he forces himself in against their will then they would be against the MoL doing so and not for it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Most likely Jesus spoke in Hebrew, maybe Aramaic, but whatever He spoke was recorded years later in Greek. Yet that agreed upon fact establishes nothing in and of itself. The Greek verb tenses would easily be known by those recording the words of Jesus. Even if you what to contend that the correct translation is 'when' it still by no means establishes the belief that He was referring to the antichrist or the false Messiah.


This is true, this is your best argument yet on the point. (let me look back why we are discussing this matter in the first place. LOL). Ah, found it.! Ok, even if your above argument is correct, that does not preclude the AC from being a Roman, and I believe I've given credible evidence from Daniel 9 why I believe he is Roman...which btw, I don't recall you addressing per se.

Amen, Daniel in multiple places states that the final gentile beast, or king, or leader would be roman. it would be him in power when christ returns, as the rock who destroys nebechandezzars statue. It is he who will control the worlds finances. it is he who will force everyone to take the mark, it is he who will offer peace, then when everyone feels safe, Sets in place the issues which will cause the greatest tribulation this world has ever seen, and ever will see.

 

[iamsoandso]

Oh, What nation did they crumble? I mean the UN had to give them the land..

look up the history of "Zionist movement/,,friends of Israel,movement" their history began long before the news paper headline in 1933 and involved other nations other than Germany. The original name for it was going to be Judea.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

look up the history of "Zionist movement/,,friends of Israel,movement" their history began long before the news paper headline in 1933 and involved other nations other than Germany. The original name for it was going to be Judea.

This does not prove a thing man

I am sorry, But I do not understand your line of reasoning or what bearing it has on the discussion.

The bible says it is God who makes and destroys nations. it is god who gives us rulers (which is also why it says we are to obey those rulers and render to them what is theirs0

God uses men to do his will.. Isreal today would not be isreal apart from Gods will period. Zionism did not bring it together. Zionism has no power.

 

[iamsoandso]

This does not prove a thing man

I am sorry, But I do not understand your line of reasoning or what bearing it has on the discussion.

The bible says it is God who makes and destroys nations. it is god who gives us rulers (which is also why it says we are to obey those rulers and render to them what is theirs0

God uses men to do his will.. Isreal today would not be isreal apart from Gods will period. Zionism did not bring it together. Zionism has no power.

So when the MoL comes and the small and great,rich and poor and nations and kings ect. cannot buy nor sell and anyone refuses to worship it's image is it God who gave him this power or does the dragon Rev.13:2? In Rev. 13:11-15 the one who received the deadly wound is the one that is healed(in the pit in Rev.17:8) and ascends up out of it. In Rev. 17 the angel says he's telling him(John/us?) the mystery of the woman and the beast that carried her so not just the gentile beast from Daniel(no woman riding at that point) But the eight is of the seven(counted into the mix)so after it received the deadly wound it rises and the number of beast is eight(even he is the eighth and is of the seven).

I do agree with you that God is who establishes nations Romans 13, 1 Peter 2 ect,(and others), but it also says from the Scriptures I gave(first paragraph) that the two horned beast sets up and image of an beast also(you ask my point) but it;s obvious from other Scripture's in Rev. that it would be wrong to worship it. So again I agree,you are correct in that God establishes nations the dragon and the two horned beast do but are not suppose to.

I apologize if I seem rude or blunt. Sometimes I read back at my prior post at how I worded things thinking its the way I worded something that seem that way. If I did I mean no disrespect and am not trying to offend anyone. I have things I need to do before dark and will return tonight.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So when the MoL comes and the small and great,rich and poor and nations and kings ect. cannot buy nor sell and anyone refuses to worship it's image is it God who gave him this power or does the dragon Rev.13:2? In Rev. 13:11-15 the one who received the deadly wound is the one that is healed(in the pit in Rev.17:8) and ascends up out of it. In Rev. 17 the angel says he's telling him(John/us?) the mystery of the woman and the beast that carried her so not just the gentile beast from Daniel(no woman riding at that point) But the eight is of the seven(counted into the mix)so after it received the deadly wound it rises and the number of beast is eight(even he is the eighth and is of the seven).

I do agree with you that God is who establishes nations Romans 13, 1 Peter 2 ect,(and others), but it also says from the Scriptures I gave(first paragraph) that the two horned beast sets up and image of an beast also(you ask my point) but it;s obvious from other Scripture's in Rev. that it would be wrong to worship it. So again I agree,you are correct in that God establishes nations the dragon and the two horned beast do but are not suppose to.

I apologize if I seem rude or blunt. Sometimes I read back at my prior post at how I worded things thinking its the way I worded something that seem that way. If I did I mean no disrespect and am not trying to offend anyone. I have things I need to do before dark and will return tonight.

if God does not allow it. Nothing happens.

Satan does not over rule God

 

[iamsoandso]

if God does not allow it. Nothing happens.

Satan does not over rule God

Maybe the way I worded my post was not clear, my intention is not that Satan over rules God but that Satan,two horned beast ect. do this against Gods rule and authority which is to catch those off guard who expect a kingdom and cause them to believe something is of God when it is not. And so they then would run into it with support instead of looking and why is because the Lord will in the minds of who expect another kingdom of Israel(Acts 1:6). I do believe he will,,right after this one runs it's coarse in time.

 

[yellowcanary]

The burden of proof is on you....how do you jive the following promise with the fact that this has yet to be REALIZED........

Why is God's land promise to the ancient people of Israel the only covenant God made with man that stipulates no conditions in the minds of today's dispensationalists ? Who are you and from where comes the audacity to state that either God fulfills this pledge according to your understanding or ... He must be a liar ? Divine privilege carries with it the responsibility of keeping covenant.

In all things Israel today, dispensationalists (and you as well) have the order of God's means backwards.

 

[yellowcanary]

In fairness to dcontroversal, I wasn't intending to claim that he himself would believe God to be a liar if Israel's ancient land promise doesn't come to fruition per his understanding. And I trust that this would be the case. But for many, if not all other dispensationalists I've conversed with on this topic over the years, this has been a consistent declaration. Felt it proper to add these words.

 

[crossnote]

In fairness to dcontroversal, I wasn't intending to claim that he himself would believe God to be a liar if Israel's ancient land promise doesn't come to fruition per his understanding. And I trust that this would be the case. But for many, if not all other dispensationalists I've conversed with on this topic over the years, this has been a consistent declaration. Felt it proper to add these words.

You seem to be hung up on the word Dispensational, how about the word Scriptural?...

Genesis 15:18-21 KJV
[18] In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: [19] The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, [20] And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, [21] And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.

Romans 11:28-29 KJV
[28] As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. [29] For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

 

[Hevosmies358]

Jew' got to be joking.....

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Maybe the way I worded my post was not clear, my intention is not that Satan over rules God but that Satan,two horned beast ect. do this against Gods rule and authority which is to catch those off guard who expect a kingdom and cause them to believe something is of God when it is not. And so they then would run into it with support instead of looking and why is because the Lord will in the minds of who expect another kingdom of Israel(Acts 1:6). I do believe he will,,right after this one runs it's coarse in time.

I can’t agree if your saying there will bt no literal events and time period of Christs rule after these events.

God, and prophesy, state otherwise.

God knows what Satan and these two men are going to do. He not only allows it He does not stop it.

There is a reason this time will be of great tribulation such as never seen before. it is the time God removed his restraint. Whether you as some believe this is the rapture of HS filled church, or just that God stop restraining or preventing Mankind from doing what it has always wanted to do. It is what will happen.

Thats why he wrote in words specific so those of us who are alive and see these things can see what is going on when it happens. And not be deceived. And be encouraged to “endure till the end” and even if you can;t. Know the end is near, and even if you cannot endure, you will be with the lord at that moment.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Why is God's land promise to the ancient people of Israel the only covenant God made with man that stipulates no conditions in the minds of today's dispensationalists ?

Maybe because when God told abraham what he was going to give him, God said I WILL. He did not say, I WILL IF you do this.

Even in the time God completed the ceremony which was an agreement between two parties He put abraham in a deep sleep; So only GOD walked down the center.


There was no, You do this, I will do that, If you fail to keep your bart of the agreement, , I will not be bound to fulfill or keep mine.

Unlike the mosaic. Where God said if you do this, I will do that. If you do not do this, then I will do something else. (A conditional covenant)

Who are you and from where comes the audacity to state that either God fulfills this pledge according to your understanding or ... He must be a liar ? Divine privilege carries with it the responsibility of keeping covenant.

Who are you to twist Gods words. And make it say something it never said, and does not say? Who are you to take a “I WILL” cpvenant, and try to twist it into a conditional covenant?

WHo are you to change Gods word?

In all things Israel today, dispensationalists (and you as well) have the order of God's means backwards.

Oh? And how is this?

All I see is you attack with no meat. How about you explain to us how a non conditional agreement can be changed to a conditional?

You need to reread Gods promise to abraham Issac and Jacob, and show us where God gave them a condition for him to continue to fulfill his covenant he claimed was an ETERNAL covenant?

 

[crossnote]

Jew' got to be joking.....

In this growing climate of antisemitism, it's not a joke.

 

[Hevosmies358]

In this growing climate of antisemitism, it's not a joke.

I hate that word. I hate antisemitism, racism, sexism, homophobia, islamophobia, xenophobia, bigotry.

^Take your pick, we got a bunch of words to choose from. Its disgusting to me.

I support Israel personally, I believe every group of people should have their own nation. Jews have Israel. They should have it. Middle-east is salty about Israel existing but they are doing fine in the civilized west, where everyone has same rights under the law, despite all the fake moans about racism. [except for you know "affirmative acton" in USA)

Aside from me just ranting, what do you mean by growing climate of antisemitism? Do you mean in the CHURCH or in the WORLD?
World I agree. Church I disagree, the Church LOVES them some Israel. I cant find a single church here aside from catholics and orthodox who dont have "Israel evenings" constantly.

EDIT: I edited most of my rant out lol.

 

[iamsoandso]

I can’t agree if your saying there will bt no literal events and time period of Christs rule after these events.

God, and prophesy, state otherwise.

God knows what Satan and these two men are going to do. He not only allows it He does not stop it.

There is a reason this time will be of great tribulation such as never seen before. it is the time God removed his restraint. Whether you as some believe this is the rapture of HS filled church, or just that God stop restraining or preventing Mankind from doing what it has always wanted to do. It is what will happen.

Thats why he wrote in words specific so those of us who are alive and see these things can see what is going on when it happens. And not be deceived. And be encouraged to “endure till the end” and even if you can;t. Know the end is near, and even if you cannot endure, you will be with the lord at that moment.

I do believe there will be a literal fulfillment, in the post you quoted from me it ends "I do believe he will,,,, right after this one runs it's coarse in time"

Now if you consider the differences between what we are speaking of the only major difference is that you and others are pre trib. pre wrath pre mill....(no offense,lol) and so from that point the beast exist and begins to fulfill the things in Scripture "after the Rapture" and so there's no reason for any to look at the events unfolding as if they pertain to to the beast,two horned beast because it is seen as future tense to them being raptured.

On the other hand in a post trib. pre wrath pre mill, frame of mind then those who see this will look for the fulfillment of the deception,that beast kingdom, that tribulation,two horned beast,mark ect.and then the rapture and the mill, kingdom(I have gave those models in my prior post).

The preterist don't see any fulfillment in the 1948 Israel,,the Amills see it symbolic ect.

And so in anwsering the OP as to the bad rap some in Christianity will support Israel because they see it one way while other Christians will see it another. So the bad rap if you think about it is that they see some of Christianity in support of them but not all.

Now as I often say I am outside the camps but you see by now that I see post trib, pre wrath, pe mill. but not as many do today but rather more closer to the 2nd and part of 3rd century Church did.

 

[iamsoandso]

I think God is the only one who is suppose set up nations and that mankind took it upon there own selves to do this but should have been patient and waited for God to do it and that's why he said they would say "let us make an image of the beast that was..." and took the one that received a deadly wound in ad70 and healed it in 1948.

 

[crossnote]

Aside from me just ranting, what do you mean by growing climate of antisemitism? Do you mean in the CHURCH or in the WORLD?
World I agree. Church I disagree, the Church LOVES them some Israel. I cant find a single church here aside from catholics and orthodox who dont have "Israel evenings" constantly.

Yes, much of the world is turning antisemitic, and I would add the amillennial sectors of the Church to your list, which at best are indifferent. In any case, sympathy for the plight of the Jews is waning in Christendom with no help from folks like Andy Stanley who pastors the 2nd largest Church in the U.S. and teaches that the OT poses too many problems and is a stumbling block for his Church Growth agenda, so he teaches only the resurrection and love of Jesus is needed...this is covert antisemitism.