What Pentecostal denomination does NOT believe in the initial evidence doctrine?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
S

SamLovesJesus1990

New member
#1
Mar 1, 2019
4
1
1
#1
So I am in line with most pentecostal teachings. I believe the baptism of the Holy Spirit is subsequent to salvation(although there could be some fluidity to that) and I believe the gifts are for today. But I disagree with the classical pentecostal doctrine that claims speaking in tongues is the initial evidence of Baptism of the Holy Spirit. That one must speak in tongues as proof that they have been baptized. I also tend to not like some of the over emphasis on gifts that some pentecostals have. I understand it depends greatly on the church and pastor, but some pentecostals have put such attention on the gifts that it becomes an obsession to get as much as they can. I believe the spirit will give whatever gift he choses as he wills(1 Corinthians 12: 7-12). Is there any denomination out there that fits this? I have looked at the major pentecostal denominations such as Assemblies of God, Foursquare, Church of God, and they all claim the initial evidence as one of their core doctrines. Does anyone know of a pentecostal denomination that does not require this? And has a more moderate approach to the gifts?
 
S

SpoonJuly

Guest
#2
#2
SamLovesJesus1990 said:
So I am in line with most pentecostal teachings. I believe the baptism of the Holy Spirit is subsequent to salvation(although there could be some fluidity to that) and I believe the gifts are for today. But I disagree with the classical pentecostal doctrine that claims speaking in tongues is the initial evidence of Baptism of the Holy Spirit. That one must speak in tongues as proof that they have been baptized. I also tend to not like some of the over emphasis on gifts that some pentecostals have. I understand it depends greatly on the church and pastor, but some pentecostals have put such attention on the gifts that it becomes an obsession to get as much as they can. I believe the spirit will give whatever gift he choses as he wills(1 Corinthians 12: 7-12). Is there any denomination out there that fits this? I have looked at the major pentecostal denominations such as Assemblies of God, Foursquare, Church of God, and they all claim the initial evidence as one of their core doctrines. Does anyone know of a pentecostal denomination that does not require this? And has a more moderate approach to the gifts?
Click to expand...
What you have experienced is what I have seen in the local Pentecostal churches in my area.
Was not true when I was young.
I remember when one could judge what was taught inside by the sign outside, but that is no longer true even among us Baptist.
All one can do is to start visiting local congregations until you find on you can join with.
None are perfect, but some have become almost a cult. There is a bunch in Kansas that use the name Baptist that are not Baptist but a cult.
 
oyster67

oyster67

Senior Member
#3
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
#3
1 Corinthians 12
12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to EVERY man to profit withal.
12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and ALL the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also [is] Christ.
12:13 For by one Spirit are we ALL baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been ALL made to drink into one Spirit.
12:14 For the body is not one member, but MANY.

The above is what to look for. Let no man tell you that there is anything complicated or difficult about the above passage. It states that the Holy Spirit is for ALL. It says we are ALL baptized when we become a part of the body (v.13) We know that we become part of the body and family the hour we first believe. We do NOT all receive the same Spiritual gifts. Tongues is only one among many. Don't let any man give you his own private, personal interpretation of the above. It is lucid and crystal clear.
 
S

SpoonJuly

Guest
#4
#4
I see that the great number of those who speak in tongues are avoiding this question.
 
oyster67

oyster67

Senior Member
#5
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
#5
SpoonJuly said:
I see that the great number of those who speak in tongues are avoiding this question.
Click to expand...
It has been said that some members in the Corinthian Church felt their gift was superior....

1 Cor 12
12:17 If the whole body [were] an eye, where [were] the hearing? If the whole [were] hearing, where [were] the smelling?
12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
12:19 And if they were all one member, where [were] the body?
12:20 But now [are they] many members, yet but one body.
12:21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
12:22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
 
Melach

Melach

Well-known member
#6
Mar 28, 2019
2,059
1,527
113
#6
im sure none.

sadly many pentecostals teach works based salvation.
 
RickyZ

RickyZ

Senior Member
#7
Sep 20, 2012
9,635
787
113
#7
SpoonJuly said:
I see that the great number of those who speak in tongues are avoiding this question.
Click to expand...
Perhaps we're just tired of arguing the same thing over and over again.

Insisting people speak in tongues to prove their salvation/Holy Spirit baptism is false. Like Oyster said, tongues is but one of the gifts, and as Paul said not all of us will speak in them. But we should at some point evidence at least one of the gifts. I believe even cessationists still evidence some of the gifts, even if they deny it :)

I began my learning about tongues and the gifts in a Foursquare church. But it was not at all the free-for-all that you find in some churches, and that Paul tries to correct in Corinthians. That is the whole gist behind 1 Cor 14, TIME AND PLACE. Unfortunately that lesson is lost on a lot of Pentecostals, giving ammo to those who say they don't exist at all.

Like Spoon said, you can't really tell by the sign on the door what is going on inside anymore. The only way to know is to visit, and compare what they teach with what's actually in the Bible.
 
S

SpoonJuly

Guest
#8
#8
I am 73 years old and live on the property my grandfather bought in 1901. So been here my entire life.
When I was younger, the local Pentecostal churches taught and practiced "speaking in tongues" but it was never their dominant thing and it was seldom talked about outside the local congregation. Even thought there were other doctrinal differences, there seemed to be a friendly fellowship between all local churches.
As those older pastors died off and a new generation took their place, things began to change. Not just Pentecostal, but with all local churches.
But, the younger Pentecostal pastors began to more and more emphasize Tongues and began to teach that it was evidence of the Holy Spirit indwelling a believer. They taught, and still teach that no "speaking in tongues". no Holly Spirit, thus no salvation.
This is my personal dealing with Pentecostal. It is impossible to have any fellowship with them because of this attitude. I must admit that this has made a very negative impression on me and cause me to have a very strong dislike for them.
While some on this forum have changed my mind to a degree, seems the loudest are just like my neighbors.
I am trying very hard to look at each individual and not group you all together.
Hope you will do the same for us Baptist.
 
Mission21

Mission21

Pathfinder
#9
Mar 12, 2019
916
808
93
#9
SamLovesJesus1990 said:
So I am in line with most pentecostal teachings. I believe the baptism of the Holy Spirit is subsequent to salvation(although there could be some fluidity to that) and I believe the gifts are for today. But I disagree with the classical pentecostal doctrine that claims speaking in tongues is the initial evidence of Baptism of the Holy Spirit. That one must speak in tongues as proof that they have been baptized. I also tend to not like some of the over emphasis on gifts that some pentecostals have. I understand it depends greatly on the church and pastor, but some pentecostals have put such attention on the gifts that it becomes an obsession to get as much as they can. I believe the spirit will give whatever gift he choses as he wills(1 Corinthians 12: 7-12). Is there any denomination out there that fits this? I have looked at the major pentecostal denominations such as Assemblies of God, Foursquare, Church of God, and they all claim the initial evidence as one of their core doctrines. Does anyone know of a pentecostal denomination that does not require this? And has a more moderate approach to the gifts?
Click to expand...
Most Pentecostal denominations have 'classical Pentecostal stance'.
- Speaking in tongues as evidence of baptism of Holy Spirit.
---
As someone already suggested, you need to visit Pentecostal churches. - different denominations.
- Get to know/encounter..
- Beyond theoretical/doctrinal search..
 
CS1

CS1

Well-known member
#10
May 23, 2012
13,112
4,374
113
#10
SamLovesJesus1990 said:
So I am in line with most pentecostal teachings. I believe the baptism of the Holy Spirit is subsequent to salvation(although there could be some fluidity to that) and I believe the gifts are for today. But I disagree with the classical pentecostal doctrine that claims speaking in tongues is the initial evidence of Baptism of the Holy Spirit. That one must speak in tongues as proof that they have been baptized. I also tend to not like some of the over emphasis on gifts that some pentecostals have. I understand it depends greatly on the church and pastor, but some pentecostals have put such attention on the gifts that it becomes an obsession to get as much as they can. I believe the spirit will give whatever gift he choses as he wills(1 Corinthians 12: 7-12). Is there any denomination out there that fits this? I have looked at the major pentecostal denominations such as Assemblies of God, Foursquare, Church of God, and they all claim the initial evidence as one of their core doctrines. Does anyone know of a Pentecostal denomination that does not require this? And has a more moderate approach to the gifts?
Click to expand...
the initial evidence doctrine also includes prophesying which both tongues, tongues & interpretation, and prophesying are known as the Prophetic gifts(speaking gifts) of the Holy Spirit found in 1cor 12. everyone who was empowered with the Holy Spirit has done one of the other at least once. How does one know they have been empowered with the Holy Spirit? If we look at Acts 2 what do we see that was done after one was filled with the Holy Spirit or "baptized in the Holy Spirit"?

might rushing wind>? nope
cloven tongues of fire >? nope

what?

Acts 4:1 filled

Acts 8:13-19 what was it, Simon, who used sorcery see that he wanted to by? was it the might wind, cloven fire?

Acts 10:44-47 they spoke with tongues
Acts 11:15 Peter said they received as did we" How? might wind? cloven fire? nope, it was tongues they that was the evidence.

Acts 19:1-6 what was it they did when they were baptized in the Holy Spirit?

in each account in Acts, they spoke in tongues or prophesied. This is why it is seen as the initial evidence. If you can explain what it was they did in Acts that bared witness they were filled I am open to listening.
 
CS1

CS1

Well-known member
#11
May 23, 2012
13,112
4,374
113
#11
oyster67 said:
1 Corinthians 12
12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to EVERY man to profit withal.
12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and ALL the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also [is] Christ.
12:13 For by one Spirit are we ALL baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been ALL made to drink into one Spirit.
12:14 For the body is not one member, but MANY.

The above is what to look for. Let no man tell you that there is anything complicated or difficult about the above passage. It states that the Holy Spirit is for ALL. It says we are ALL baptized when we become a part of the body (v.13) We know that we become part of the body and family the hour we first believe. We do NOT all receive the same Spiritual gifts. Tongues is only one among many. Don't let any man give you his own private, personal interpretation of the above. It is lucid and crystal clear.
Click to expand...
you are mixing up the empowering of the Holy Spirit with the gifts of the Holy Spirit. two different things
 
CS1

CS1

Well-known member
#12
May 23, 2012
13,112
4,374
113
#12
SpoonJuly said:
I see that the great number of those who speak in tongues are avoiding this question.
Click to expand...
what was the question? I did not see it please tell I will try to answer it.
 
S

SpoonJuly

Guest
#15
#15
I see the moderator that takes sides is here so I will leave before I am scolded again.
 
CS1

CS1

Well-known member
#17
May 23, 2012
13,112
4,374
113
#17
SpoonJuly said:
I see the moderator that takes sides is here so I will leave before I am scolded again.
Click to expand...
Spoonjuly please do not suggest I have taken sides. maybe from your lack of remembrance, I already stated I could be wrong I think in my very first post of this Thread. Also, I have given scripture ref: to support the position of some who see tongues as the initial evidence. I see you take a side and it is ok for you to do but not me? Wrong!.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#18
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,778
113
#18
SamLovesJesus1990 said:
I have looked at the major pentecostal denominations such as Assemblies of God, Foursquare, Church of God, and they all claim the initial evidence as one of their core doctrines. Does anyone know of a pentecostal denomination that does not require this?
Click to expand...
Not very likely. That would be like asking a Calvinist if he would reject four of the five points of Calvinism and remain within "the fold".
 
G

garee

Banned
#19
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
#19
That one must speak in tongues as proof that they have been baptized. I also tend to not like some of the over emphasis on gifts that some pentecostals have.
Click to expand...
Those who look to signs before they can confirm themselves having the Holy Spirit would seem to have two sign that they call gifts. like killing two birds with one stone.

The baptism has to with a old testament foundation just as tongues . Neither confirm the things not seen. His Spirit accomplished that work of the Spirit of Christ

One when a person has a desire to be a member of the priesthood before they begin their ministry they get wet. . Just as the Son of man Jesus did in regard to John 3:25 the subject matter of the dispute .Tongues is a sign that confirms unbelief, no faith in God.

No such thing a "sign gifts" spiritual unseen, yes . We walk by faith...….the unseen eternal.
 
CS1

CS1

Well-known member
#20
May 23, 2012
13,112
4,374
113
#20
garee said:
Those who look to signs before they can confirm themselves having the Holy Spirit would seem to have two sign that they call gifts. like killing two birds with one stone.

The baptism has to with a old testament foundation just as tongues . Neither confirm the things not seen. His Spirit accomplished that work of the Spirit of Christ

One when a person has a desire to be a member of the priesthood before they begin their ministry they get wet. . Just as the Son of man Jesus did in regard to John 3:25 the subject matter of the dispute .Tongues is a sign that confirms unbelief, no faith in God.

No such thing a "sign gifts" spiritual unseen, yes . We walk by faith...….the unseen eternal.
Click to expand...
wrong!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.