What Pentecostal denomination does NOT believe in the initial evidence doctrine?

[KelbyofGod]

I am 73 years old and live on the property my grandfather bought in 1901. So been here my entire life.
When I was younger, the local Pentecostal churches taught and practiced "speaking in tongues" but it was never their dominant thing and it was seldom talked about outside the local congregation. Even thought there were other doctrinal differences, there seemed to be a friendly fellowship between all local churches.
As those older pastors died off and a new generation took their place, things began to change. Not just Pentecostal, but with all local churches.
But, the younger Pentecostal pastors began to more and more emphasize Tongues and began to teach that it was evidence of the Holy Spirit indwelling a believer. They taught, and still teach that no "speaking in tongues". no Holly Spirit, thus no salvation.
This is my personal dealing with Pentecostal. It is impossible to have any fellowship with them because of this attitude. I must admit that this has made a very negative impression on me and cause me to have a very strong dislike for them.
While some on this forum have changed my mind to a degree, seems the loudest are just like my neighbors.
I am trying very hard to look at each individual and not group you all together.
Hope you will do the same for us Baptist.

I liked the way you worded this. Honest. Real.

There's a reason why Pentecostal people are fervent and zealous. It's not always good and it's not all bad. If you've ever watched a young person who has just been given their first assignment as a supervisor, you may begin to grasp what I'm saying.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[KelbyofGod]

I see that the great number of those who speak in tongues are avoiding this question.

.
Wasn't avoiding. Just noticed the post a few minutes ago.

 

[PS]

So I am in line with most pentecostal teachings. I believe the baptism of the Holy Spirit is subsequent to salvation(although there could be some fluidity to that) and I believe the gifts are for today. But I disagree with the classical pentecostal doctrine that claims speaking in tongues is the initial evidence of Baptism of the Holy Spirit. That one must speak in tongues as proof that they have been baptized. I also tend to not like some of the over emphasis on gifts that some pentecostals have. I understand it depends greatly on the church and pastor, but some pentecostals have put such attention on the gifts that it becomes an obsession to get as much as they can. I believe the spirit will give whatever gift he choses as he wills(1 Corinthians 12: 7-12). Is there any denomination out there that fits this? I have looked at the major pentecostal denominations such as Assemblies of God, Foursquare, Church of God, and they all claim the initial evidence as one of their core doctrines. Does anyone know of a pentecostal denomination that does not require this? And has a more moderate approach to the gifts?

Speaking in tongues is evidence, but not necessary, there are other more useful gifts. The gift of healing would be really wonderful.

 

[PS]

.....But, the younger Pentecostal pastors began to more and more emphasize Tongues and began to teach that it was evidence of the Holy Spirit indwelling a believer. They taught, and still teach that no "speaking in tongues". no Holly Spirit, thus no salvation.
This is my personal dealing with Pentecostal. It is impossible to have any fellowship with them because of this attitude. I must admit that this has made a very negative impression on me and cause me to have a very strong dislike for them.
While some on this forum have changed my mind to a degree, seems the loudest are just like my neighbors.
I am trying very hard to look at each individual and not group you all together.
Hope you will do the same for us Baptist.

That is so wrong. (And I'm Pentecostal, Elim Foursquare in the UK.)

 

[SpoonJuly]

That is so wrong. (And I'm Pentecostal, Elim Foursquare in the UK.)

Thank you for agreeing.
If one reads very carefully, there are many on this forum who do the same thing.
They may not be honest enough to say it to your face, but imply it time and time again.
I am thankful that ALL you folks have not gone down this road.

 

[KelbyofGod]

I would be one that would say that speaking in tongues is necessary (because everyone needs to be able to worship the Father in spirit as well as truth) to a person's face. But I also know it is available (pretty much for the asking) to anyone who wants it. Hence, it is not an insurmountable problem when you get God involved.

But that's the thing... it takes God's involvement.

Kinda like a miraculous healing.. that also takes God's actual involvement. And a lot of people might not know how to get that to happen.

And it's scary when someone says "you MUST have God's involvement, not just your own thoughts/beliefs"...especially if the church they were raised in didn't teach how that works.

There's a reason why half of the biblically recorded accounts of people receiving the Holy Ghost required the laying on of hands before it was given. The individuals needed the extra help. The same holds true today.


I know that's not a direct answer to the OP's original question about churches. But I don't directly know of any specific ones, as I live in a more rural area.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[notuptome]

I would be one that would say that speaking in tongues is necessary (because everyone needs to be able to worship the Father in spirit as well as truth) to a person's face. But I also know it is available (pretty much for the asking) to anyone who wants it. Hence, it is not an insurmountable problem when you get God involved.

But that's the thing... it takes God's involvement.

Kinda like a miraculous healing.. that also takes God's actual involvement. And a lot of people might not know how to get that to happen.

And it's scary when someone says "you MUST have God's involvement, not just your own thoughts/beliefs"...especially if the church they were raised in didn't teach how that works.

There's a reason why half of the biblically recorded accounts of people receiving the Holy Ghost required the laying on of hands before it was given. The individuals needed the extra help. The same holds true today.


I know that's not a direct answer to the OP's original question about churches. But I don't directly know of any specific ones, as I live in a more rural area.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

You want to worship the Lord in Spirit and truth? Worship the Lord through the word of God. The Holy Spirit will minister in the heart through the word of God.

Praying in tongues keeps the man from the truth. You cannot be edified if there is no knowledge of what you are praying. Without knowledge there can be no understanding. Without understanding there is no wisdom.

When I was young in the Lord I was taught that if the adversary cannot keep you from learning to pray his next best thing is to distract you from effectual prayer.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[SpoonJuly]

I would be one that would say that speaking in tongues is necessary (because everyone needs to be able to worship the Father in spirit as well as truth) to a person's face. But I also know it is available (pretty much for the asking) to anyone who wants it. Hence, it is not an insurmountable problem when you get God involved.

But that's the thing... it takes God's involvement.

Kinda like a miraculous healing.. that also takes God's actual involvement. And a lot of people might not know how to get that to happen.

And it's scary when someone says "you MUST have God's involvement, not just your own thoughts/beliefs"...especially if the church they were raised in didn't teach how that works.

There's a reason why half of the biblically recorded accounts of people receiving the Holy Ghost required the laying on of hands before it was given. The individuals needed the extra help. The same holds true today.


I know that's not a direct answer to the OP's original question about churches. But I don't directly know of any specific ones, as I live in a more rural area.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

What you are saying is very similar to what these local pentecostals are saying, and most on this forum.
You are implying that Your worship and fellowship with God is greater than mine. That my worship and service and prayer is less than yours simply because I do not speak in tongues.
You are in effect saying I am less a Christian and my relationship with my Lord is lacking.
And than you imply it is because I do not seek what is easy to get---I need help.
That is passing judgment that you have no authority to do.

And your statement about laying on of hands is totally wrong.

 

[SpoonJuly]

I would be one that would say that speaking in tongues is necessary (because everyone needs to be able to worship the Father in spirit as well as truth) to a person's face. But I also know it is available (pretty much for the asking) to anyone who wants it. Hence, it is not an insurmountable problem when you get God involved.

But that's the thing... it takes God's involvement.

Kinda like a miraculous healing.. that also takes God's actual involvement. And a lot of people might not know how to get that to happen.

And it's scary when someone says "you MUST have God's involvement, not just your own thoughts/beliefs"...especially if the church they were raised in didn't teach how that works.

There's a reason why half of the biblically recorded accounts of people receiving the Holy Ghost required the laying on of hands before it was given. The individuals needed the extra help. The same holds true today.


I know that's not a direct answer to the OP's original question about churches. But I don't directly know of any specific ones, as I live in a more rural area.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

Do you believe that speaking in tongues is a sign of salvation?
No tongues, thus no Holy Spirit, and no salvation?

 

[PS]

Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

You want to worship the Lord in Spirit and truth? Worship the Lord through the word of God. The Holy Spirit will minister in the heart through the word of God.

Praying in tongues keeps the man from the truth. You cannot be edified if there is no knowledge of what you are praying. Without knowledge there can be no understanding. Without understanding there is no wisdom.

When I was young in the Lord I was taught that if the adversary cannot keep you from learning to pray his next best thing is to distract you from effectual prayer.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The gifts of the Spirit are God given. Please don't reject His gifts. God gave us the gift of interpretation also.

Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? (1Co 12:27-30 KJV)

Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
(1Co 14:1-5 KJV)

Having said that, don't despair if you do not speak in tongues, once you give your heart to the Lord, you are saved whether or not.

 

[notuptome]

The gifts of the Spirit are God given. Please don't reject His gifts. God gave us the gift of interpretation also.

Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? (1Co 12:27-30 KJV)

Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
(1Co 14:1-5 KJV)

Having said that, don't despair if you do not speak in tongues, once you give your heart to the Lord, you are saved whether or not.

Sorry but that is patronizing. I rejoice in the Lord. I speak with the Lord often. Tongues according to Pentecostal reasoning are not biblical tongues. Prayer tongues are completely absurd.

Worship God through His word. The word does not change and will not pass away. Tongues ended when the NT was completed. OT and NT make the perfect or complete revelation of God through which the Holy Spirit guides us. It is the precious deposit of truth that we require to know our Savior and to serve our Lord.

1 Cor 13:8 three gifts ended.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[PS]

Sorry but that is patronizing. I rejoice in the Lord. I speak with the Lord often. Tongues according to Pentecostal reasoning are not biblical tongues. Prayer tongues are completely absurd.

Worship God through His word. The word does not change and will not pass away. Tongues ended when the NT was completed. OT and NT make the perfect or complete revelation of God through which the Holy Spirit guides us. It is the precious deposit of truth that we require to know our Savior and to serve our Lord.

1 Cor 13:8 three gifts ended.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I quote the Bible and you say it is patronising.

Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. (1Co 13:8 ESV)

1 Cor 13:8 tells us love endures forever, eternally, but the things of earth like prophecies, tongues and knowledge will cease; as will everything else at the end of time. However, while we live they are there to be used for the glory of God.

 

[notuptome]

I quote the Bible and you say it is patronising.

Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. (1Co 13:8 ESV)

1 Cor 13:8 tells us love endures forever, eternally, but the things of earth like prophecies, tongues and knowledge will cease; as will everything else at the end of time. However, while we live they are there to be used for the glory of God.

No to declare that I need not despair if I don't speak in tongues is patronizing.

"Having said that, don't despair if you do not speak in tongues, once you give your heart to the Lord, you are saved whether or not."

Now you conveniently take a position on 1 Cor 13:8 that is unsound and eisegesis not exegesis. 1 Cor 13:8 clearly ends three gifts when the bible is completed.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[PS]

No to declare that I need not despair if I don't speak in tongues is patronizing.

"Having said that, don't despair if you do not speak in tongues, once you give your heart to the Lord, you are saved whether or not."

Now you conveniently take a position on 1 Cor 13:8 that is unsound and eisegesis not exegesis. 1 Cor 13:8 clearly ends three gifts when the bible is completed.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

It sounds to me like you are still on the milk. (1 Corinthians 3:2)

 

[notuptome]

It sounds to me like you are still on the milk. (1 Corinthians 3:2)

Is your intent just to insult me? Have you no maturity in the Lord? Such aloof arrogance.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[PS]

Is your intent just to insult me? Have you no maturity in the Lord? Such aloof arrogance.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

God is eternal, so are his gifts and so is the Holy Spirit who worketh in man even today, His will to do. God did not finish with us 80 years after he returned to the Father. I am trying to teach you but time limiting God is an insult to the Almighty. All right them, show me in the Bible where Jesus said he would send the Comforter for a limited amount of time. There are thousands who prove you wrong. In the meantime I have to walk the dog.

 

[notuptome]

God is eternal, so are his gifts and so is the Holy Spirit who worketh in man even today, His will to do. God did not finish with us 80 years after he returned to the Father. I am trying to teach you but time limiting God is an insult to the Almighty. All right them, show me in the Bible where Jesus said he would send the Comforter for a limited amount of time. There are thousands who prove you wrong. In the meantime I have to walk the dog.

Some truth but not all the truth. God said He was ending tongues. God did not say He would end the Holy Spirit's ministry in the hearts and lives of His children. So by carefully altering the truth you accuse those who would hold to the truth.

God has chosen the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. Not signs and wonders. Not healings and raising the dead. Nope just simple preaching which to them that perish foolishness.

Walk your dog and by the mercy of God you will return.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[stonesoffire]

Before coming here to CC, I didn't have a set opinion of whether tongues was evidence or not. Some told me that they asked but never received that certain gift and I just accepted that.

After studying and listening to others, I saw the difference between the gift of tongues, and the language of the spiritual man or woman. That is a topic I don't see being brought up. What is the spiritual man or woman and how do we know who is who.

So I agree with CS1 now. There are several voice gifts, and at receiving Holy Spirit, the voice is what was first affected. Tongues, prophecy, and am sure worship and magnifying the Lord Jesus in wisdom and knowledge all came into play.

The prayer language is the spiritual language of the Spiritual man. That is not the gift of tongues which is a message to others from God, same as prophecy.

Confusion will continue as long as these things are refused. Because now in this day....knowledge is not enough. Plus the Word of God states knowledge puffs one up with pride.....but experience is intimacy with God. The baptism of Holy Spirit is that. God and man coming together in the Work that Jesus gives to us to do. No longer law...line upon line, here a little there a little.....but Spirit led. And taught. Revealing the Son and the Sonship He gives to man.

 

[stonesoffire]

Is your intent just to insult me? Have you no maturity in the Lord? Such aloof arrogance.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

A spoon of the same you dish out to others perhaps?

 

[KelbyofGod]

What you are saying is very similar to what these local pentecostals are saying, and most on this forum.
1.You are implying that Your worship and fellowship with God is greater than mine. 2.That my worship and service and prayer is less than yours simply because I do not speak in tongues.
3a.You are in effect saying I am less a Christian and (3b) my relationship with my Lord is lacking.
4. And than you imply it is because I do not seek what is easy to get---5. I need help.
6a. That is passing judgment that 6b you have no authority to do.

7. And your statement about laying on of hands is totally wrong.

The idea of different levels is throughout the bible and life itself BUT there is a huge difference between acknowledging differences and attacking character. I am not attacking anyone's character. There are way too many that seem to take pleasure in doing that in the forums.

And I'm not making huge, broad accusations against you or anyone who currently doesn't have the ability to speak in tongues...I'm just pointing out that there's a large area of things that become available if a person steps through the same door that I did...and that the door is available to all. (That's not elitist thinking)


Please forgive my numbering of statements in your quoted post. I did that in order to ask you to consider that the ideas in 1-5 are readily accepted in other areas of our lives, and are easily applied to me too, within 1 Corinthians 14 if you consider what is said about someone who prophesies vs. someone who only speaks in tongues.

1 Cor. 14:5 "Greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh in tongues" (except he interpret). <--implies points 1, 2 and 3a upon me.

1 Cor. 14:13 "Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret." <--Implies points 3b and 4:

And I think that anyone who claims point 5 doesn't apply to them (in several areas of their life) has lost touch with reality.

Some people struggle more than others. We can get mad at that, or just accept it as reality. For example: I prayed for weeks, seeking to be able to pray in tongues fluently...while I've watched others get it seemingly without effort at the laying on of hands, or at baptism. (Others got it on their own but I wasn't there to witness that happening.) I may not have LIKED that I struggled more than they did, but I probably appreciated it more than many as a result of that struggling.

On point 6a & 6b, I roughly define "passing judgement" as "declaring someone worthy or unworthy...or sending a punishment upon someone". I'm not declaring anyone 'unworthy'...I'm saying I consider them worthy and also consider that the door is open unto them, encouraging them to "Come on in".

On point 7, I see that 2 out of the 4 initial outpourings of the Holy Ghost, recorded in Acts, occurred at the laying on of hands. And that the giving and receiving of other gifts is also associated with laying on of hands (in the epistles). So I'm not sure what you mean by "totally wrong". Would you be willing to clarify? Thanks.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby