If Women Can't Have Authority Over Men in the Church, Why Are They Expected to Teach in School?

[Locoponydirtman]

Of course you are right. But, codifying roles which are oppressive in many circumstances, and often women are viewed as second class citizens, is a lot different than what grows out of the ground.

As Christians, we need to live like Kingdom people. That means recognizing the image of God in us all. It means not following into the trap of living like we are judged and condemned, instead of saints follow Christ.

By adhering to these old ways, basically the church is stifling over 50% of the population. We need everyone to be on mission with God, not just barefoot and pregnant. And women need to understand that this idea of women needing to marry and then be servants to their husbands, is simply wrong. God has called us to be free in him, and that means allowing women to fulfill their callings in God.

I'm not saying every woman is called to be a leader, or a missionary or a teacher. But, for those who have that gift, it is really defying God to say they cannot follow those callings and use those gifts, because of the breakdown in our relationship with God in Genesis 3, rather than our reconciliation to God in 2 Cor. 5:17.

As new creature in Christ, we are all being transformed. We don't need to follow the rules from the dawn of time, or 4000 years, or 2000 years ago.

"So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed." John 8:36.

Time to lose this male patriarchy nonsense, because there is simply not a word in the Bible that says women can't be pastors, anywhere. Roles are a result of sin! Being free to follow Christ is the joy of the cross and resurrection.

In 1 Timothy 3 what is the office of "over seer"?
It hard for me to ignore 1 Timothy 2 and 3. And Ephesians 5 which I know isn't talking about ministry but how could the wife follow these instructions and then the instructions to Timothy as all the other requirements of an Over seer. If those terms in Timothy were gender neutral. Being that the management of the household is a qualifier.

 

[Lanolin]

Holy spirit is the helper.
Women are just holy spirit made visible.

Also, what about the verse that says no man can teach you,,,the holy spirit will guide you to all truth.
1 John 2:27

Who anointed Jesus? No man anointed Jesus. A woman did!

And the gospel shall be preached and what Mary did will always be remembered as a memorial to her.

matthew 26:13

 

[Locoponydirtman]

A book and a video (series) for starters...

Charles Trombley, Who Said Women Can't Teach (Gainesville, FL: Bridge-Logos, 1985, reprint 2003).

part one of a six-part series.

I don't ignor those directives given for male leaders or officers of the church. It is a bad idea for unmarried men who have no family or home life to testify to their character to be in those positions.
There is cultural connotation to all those passages, yet there are principles that are universal and still apply. The braided hair with gold thing was about sexual temptation; to keep it rated PG if you will. So what is the universal principle in women teaching and authority over men. I don't thing it's about teaching or authority as a whole. The end of that statement is in relationship to men. As she said concentric circles. In that passage Paul gives his reason in a statement that gives the intent. Because Adam was made first and Eve was deceived, so what does that mean. You gotta go back to Genesis. The fall wasn't actually her fault it was Adams, she was deceived which is tricked or kind of gives a bit of plausible deniability if you will. Adam however saw that even wasn't dead so he ate the fruit knowing full well it's what God had forbidden. Now the wellbeing of women is for the rest of time the responsibility of men. Therefore it is the duty and responsibility of men from then on. Also thus is the instruction for the man to be a married man and a family man and an experienced Christian not new to the faith so that it is evident that he is up to the responsibility of the task.
Then if it follows to go to Genesis to see what Paul is referencing it also follows that we must look at the book of Ephesians particularly chapter 5 to see what the marriage relationship principles look like and apply them here as well.

Now all that being said . I will continue to watch the series and listen to what is being said.

Please know that I am not one who thinks that there is no role for women as teachers preachers evangelists in fact quite the contrary. There is an important role for them. It would be foolishness to exclude women from ministry. Now know this though. As I plan to begin planting home ministries when my training is done I want you to know I would not go out on my own with out a ministry leader and church home. I will do just as the apostles did through out their ministries being all connected and answerable to the church leaders. My pastor will absolutely fit the qualifications according to the letter from Paul to Timothy. So should any woman who is serious about ministry make herself a countable to some one who fits the qualifications as prescribed.

 

[Tinkerbell725]

You are really deceived! I've been reading all your nonsense about "roles' and you have swallowed the poison, hook, line and sinker!

Do you ever read your Bible in context? Look at the beginning of Genesis. The woman was created to be an ezer warrior and walk beside the man, in the battle against evil. Eve was deceived, but Paul actually blames the man for sin entering the world, in Romans 5:

"So then, just as sin entered the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all people because all sinned— 13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world, but there is no accounting for sin when there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam until Moses even over those who did not sin in the same way that Adam (who is a type of the coming one) transgressed. 15 But the gracious gift is not like the transgression. For if the many died through the transgression of the one man, how much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one man Jesus Christ multiply to the many!" Romans 5:12-15

Plus, Genesis 3 is very clear that roles came AFTER the Fall, not before. So, by keeping roles as your main theology, you are actually denying the change that Jesus brought through his death and resurrection, which makes us all new creatures in him (2 Cor. 5:17) and equal (Gal 3:28). You are blaspheming Jesus, his work on the cross, the power of the resurrection, and the new covenant, wanting to live by the rules God had to put in place for the Jews, to keep them pure, which failed. But, even in the OT, women were leaders and part of the community.

"So then, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; what is old has passed away—look, what is new has come!" 2 Cor. 5:17

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female—for all of you are one in Christ Jesus." Gal 3:28

You keep harping on this topic, thinking because you read John Piper, you know it all. Well, I read John Piper too. He has some good things and some bad things to his preaching, like all preachers do. But, his dogmatic resistance to women in ministry is just not based on the Greek. And he knows Greek well, I've read some of his exegetical work. But, he is blinded by his own upbringing, and ego, that men should run things. Since the church has been run by men till now, and in fact, the church is NOT doing well, in North America, at least, probably time to go back to the Bible, instead of walking with those who do not respect the abilities and God's giftings to women.

I know ezer has been dealt with on this thread, but I will post something I wrote. Perhaps you will read it, and realize how totally and utterly wrong you are. Or, you will hang onto your pride and devotion to the law, and not allow Jesus to do his work he has called people to do - including women.

Roles exist before and after the fall. The ezer role was assigned before the fall and still applies after the fall. How can you say that the ezer role promoted eve to be equal with adam when adam was created in the image of God and eve was created in the image of adam. The ezer role is very powerful but it does not make eve equal to adam. When you assume that they are equal, why did the devil attack eve first? Because she was the weaker being.

A woman can preach but must be under the authority of her husband. Or else she will dishonor her husband. The single woman is under the authority of his father since she does not have a husband. This is the will of the Lord and he knows what is best for us. Why must the woman lead the ministry when she is perfect in supporting it? What is the goal? To glorify God more?


1 Cor 11:1-13


1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.

5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.

9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.

13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto Goduncovered?

 

[kaylagrl]

Roles exist before and after the fall. The ezer role was assigned before the fall and still applies after the fall. How can you say that the ezer role promoted eve to be equal with adam when adam was created in the image of God and eve was created in the image of adam. The ezer role is very powerful but it does not make eve equal to adam. When you assume that they are equal, why did the devil attack eve first? Because she was the weaker being.

A woman can preach but must be under the authority of her husband. Or else she will dishonor her husband. The single woman is under the authority of his father since she does not have a husband. This is the will of the Lord and he knows what is best for us. Why must the woman lead the ministry when she is perfect in supporting it? What is the goal? To glorify God more?


1 Cor 11:1-13


1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.

5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.

9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.

13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto Goduncovered?

Most single women live a long way from home, how can they be under their fathers authority when they are living at home? And even if they live near their father surely you're not suggesting they are still under parental authority?

 

[Tinkerbell725]

Most single women live a long way from home, how can they be under their fathers authority when they are living at home? And even if they live near their father surely you're not suggesting they are still under parental authority?

Spiritual authority. That's why when she gets married, that authority is transferred to her husband. She is still under a man's authority. Honor thy mother and thy father.

 

[kaylagrl]

Spiritual authority. That's why when she gets married, that authority is transferred to her husband.

Humm so how does that work in the real world? Not being sarcastic. How does that work in your opinion?

 

[Dino246]

Spiritual authority. That's why when she gets married, that authority is transferred to her husband. She is still under a man's authority. Honor thy mother and thy father.

Impractical in modern culture, and completely irrelevant where the woman's father is not a Christian.

Honour thy father and mother has nothing to do with spiritual authority as a Christian believer.

 

[Dino246]

I don't ignor those directives given for male leaders or officers of the church. It is a bad idea for unmarried men who have no family or home life to testify to their character to be in those positions.
There is cultural connotation to all those passages, yet there are principles that are universal and still apply. The braided hair with gold thing was about sexual temptation; to keep it rated PG if you will. So what is the universal principle in women teaching and authority over men. I don't thing it's about teaching or authority as a whole. The end of that statement is in relationship to men. As she said concentric circles. In that passage Paul gives his reason in a statement that gives the intent. Because Adam was made first and Eve was deceived, so what does that mean. You gotta go back to Genesis. The fall wasn't actually her fault it was Adams, she was deceived which is tricked or kind of gives a bit of plausible deniability if you will. Adam however saw that even wasn't dead so he ate the fruit knowing full well it's what God had forbidden. Now the wellbeing of women is for the rest of time the responsibility of men. Therefore it is the duty and responsibility of men from then on. Also thus is the instruction for the man to be a married man and a family man and an experienced Christian not new to the faith so that it is evident that he is up to the responsibility of the task.
Then if it follows to go to Genesis to see what Paul is referencing it also follows that we must look at the book of Ephesians particularly chapter 5 to see what the marriage relationship principles look like and apply them here as well.

Now all that being said . I will continue to watch the series and listen to what is being said.

Please know that I am not one who thinks that there is no role for women as teachers preachers evangelists in fact quite the contrary. There is an important role for them. It would be foolishness to exclude women from ministry. Now know this though. As I plan to begin planting home ministries when my training is done I want you to know I would not go out on my own with out a ministry leader and church home. I will do just as the apostles did through out their ministries being all connected and answerable to the church leaders. My pastor will absolutely fit the qualifications according to the letter from Paul to Timothy. So should any woman who is serious about ministry make herself a countable to some one who fits the qualifications as prescribed.

Again, Paul's reference to the order of creation makes perfect sense if he is refuting a false teaching common in Ephesus at the time. It makes little sense otherwise. There is nothing inherent in creation order to establish authority, and "authentein" isn't the word for "authority" anyway, as Angela53510 has explained.

 

[Locoponydirtman]

Again, Paul's reference to the order of creation makes perfect sense if he is refuting a false teaching common in Ephesus at the time. It makes little sense otherwise. There is nothing inherent in creation order to establish authority, and "authentein" isn't the word for "authority" anyway, as Angela53510 has explained.

This is a link to what I am reading on the subject.
https://www.academia.edu/24894058/R...othy_2_12_What_Do_the_Extant_Data_Really_Show

 

[Tinkerbell725]

Impractical in modern culture, and completely irrelevant where the woman's father is not a Christian.

Honour thy father and mother has nothing to do with spiritual authority as a Christian believer.

It is clear that the head of a woman is man. If the father is not a christian, then the head is the spiritual leader. Maybe this is the reason why the spiritual leader must be a man, for the sake of single women and widows.

 

[Lanolin]

Can anyone explain the head covering, shorn passage and power on head because of angels. I think I asked this before and nobody could really explain it. But maybe tinkerbell can since she insists on it.

1 Corinthians 11:3-10

 

[Lanolin]

Im thinking it has to do with hair, and if women dont cover it up, their hair would be a glorious distraction?

 

[Tinkerbell725]

Im thinking it has to do with hair, and if women dont cover it up, their hair would be a glorious distraction?

YES! You got it right! I am even surprised where this is all coming from. Maybe this wisdom is from the leading of the Holy Spirit because I am not even a greek scholar. The Lord is not the author of confusion. It is so simple but we are making it complicated. The hair is the woman's power. She needs to cover it because of the angels. Remember samson? When delilah cut his hair, he lost his power. Hair is power. Woman needs to cover her head for protection from the angels who are attracted to her power and also as respect to her husband. When eve uncovered her head, she lost her protection and was exposed to the devil. So as Sarah who's mistake divided the nation of God because she influenced Abraham. Uncovering the head has caused serious consequences. Consequences are the result of sin.

 

[Tinkerbell725]

Can anyone explain the head covering, shorn passage and power on head because of angels. I think I asked this before and nobody could really explain it. But maybe tinkerbell can since she insists on it.

1 Corinthians 11:3-10

The head cover is the protection of the woman from the angels and a sign of submission to the man. To uncover the head the woman becomes vulnerable and she will dishonor her head. She is safe under the authority of the man.

 

[Dino246]

YES! You got it right! I am even surprised where this is all coming from. Maybe this wisdom is from the leading of the Holy Spirit because I am not even a greek scholar. The Lord is not the author of confusion. It is so simple but we are making it complicated. The hair is the woman's power. She needs to cover it because of the angels. Remember samson? When delilah cut his hair, he lost his power. Hair is power. Woman needs to cover her head for protection from the angels who are attracted to her power and also as respect to her husband. When eve uncovered her head, she lost her protection and was exposed to the devil. So as Sarah who's mistake divided the nation of God because she influenced Abraham. Uncovering the head has caused serious consequences. Consequences are the result of sin.

Samson, specifically, was a Nazirite from birth; no razor was used on his head until Delilah used on. The hair itself had no power; the Holy Spirit was the source of power. He withdrew (Judges 16:20) after Samson casually tossed away his secret.

Women's hair has no comparable power today.

Please check your attitude with regard to alleged revelations from the Holy Spirit. Such a view is dangerous. 1 Corinthians 11 is fraught with difficulty. Thinking you understand it is more likely to result only in your mind being closed to alternate explanations.

 

[Tinkerbell725]

I am not talking about literal hair. Hair is the symbol of her power being the ezer. The hair still has power today. The power to build or destroy a man. The power to influence him since she makes up the man. Ezer kenegdo. Helper if she is worthy. His weakness if he is not worthy.

I saw your video. She is confusing. I don't know what kind of spirit is leading her. She wants to disobey God, be used by the devil, and dishonor her head.

 

[Angela53510]

Roles exist before and after the fall. The ezer role was assigned before the fall and still applies after the fall. How can you say that the ezer role promoted eve to be equal with adam when adam was created in the image of God and eve was created in the image of adam. The ezer role is very powerful but it does not make eve equal to adam. When you assume that they are equal, why did the devil attack eve first? Because she was the weaker being.

A woman can preach but must be under the authority of her husband. Or else she will dishonor her husband. The single woman is under the authority of his father since she does not have a husband. This is the will of the Lord and he knows what is best for us. Why must the woman lead the ministry when she is perfect in supporting it? What is the goal? To glorify God more?


1 Cor 11:1-13


1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.

5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.

9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.

13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto Goduncovered?

First, I do not read KJV English, so post in my language, or the Greek or Hebrew, not some archaic and no longer used version of English.

Second, I explained both Ezer-warrior and authority in these threads. You obviously did not read them. If you respond to them and disagree, based on good hermeneutics and knowledge of the Greek, then I will have no issues with you. We can agree to disagree.

https://christianchat.com/threads/i...pected-to-teach-in-school.184708/post-3917644

https://christianchat.com/threads/i...pected-to-teach-in-school.184708/post-3916735

And last, but not least, I find it odd that you are so arrogant about your abilities. You don't know Greek, you couldn't set out a hermeneutic (interpretative) principle if your life depended on it. Plus, your "opinion" is right because you say it is. You rarely post anything to show your point. Or, when you do, you are defending your opinions with English, instead of Koine Greek or Biblical Hebrew. Ezer is a warrior, not a "helper." That was King James', (an insufferable man) mandate, partly because his claim to throne was so weak because of women who also had claim to the throne of England.

You are totally inflexible in considering what else God was saying in terms of culture in the Bible, and now. My guess is you are really a man, trying to put women in their "place" or you are an abused woman, thoroughly brainwashed by some cult or man, that a woman can not answer the call of God, because men and people like you are so caught in legalism it is unbelievable.

Did I mention, 1 Cor. 11 has so many exegetical issues, scholars would only use it in desperation to prove a point. Who are the angels? Are we sinning because we are not wearing 1st century Greek or Roman clothing, including head coverings, which showed maritial status and many other things? Just wild, you would use this chapter!! You are digging yourself in pretty deep with your opinions, and pretending the Holy Spirit told you so! Guess what the Holy Spirit called me into ministry, and has been using me for many years now. I preach and teach in my church, in front of men, and I have never had an issue with anyone. People learn from me, and get a message from God. I would not preach if God didn't want me to, but he has given me the gift, the knowledge and the passion to do it!

And, getting back to SS's OP, if a woman can teach a male child, why does his gender suddenly mean the woman has to shut up when he reaches some magic age, never mentioned in Scripture? Oh right, because the men won't teach Sunday School, its beneath them, or something. Better to keep a pew warm, than listening to the call of God, man or woman!

 

[Dino246]

I am not talking about literal hair. Hair is the symbol of her power being the ezer. The hair still has power today. The power to build or destroy a man. The power to influence him since she makes up the man. Ezer kenegdo. Helper if she is worthy. His weakness if he is not worthy.

Okay, so you're talking about non-literal hair... whatever that is.

I saw your video. She is confusing. I don't know what kind of spirit is leading her. She wants to disobey God, be used by the devil, and dishonor her head.

It's not "my" video. It's part one of a series where all of the contentious passages are discussed by a competent Bible scholar. If you don't like it, fine, but don't make ridiculous accusations against the presenter without evidence to back them up.

 

[Tinkerbell725]

And the first person to cry and want equal rights was lucifer, who wanted to be God.