Amillennialists...Here's a chance to state your case.

[Melach]

The "thousand years reign" is very simple to understand when we consider how Jesus destroyed the last enemy....death.

that is still future. Jesus did destroy on the cross in a sense but in actuality its only fulfilled in future.

come on this is ridicilous now im sorry to be so unconstructive. but what can i say you? you are saying things that just are observable not true

 

[garee]

In order to fulfill the promises made to them [to Israel].

And here (among other passages):

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in [G1525 - eiselthe / eiserchomai].
[the "fulness of the Gentiles" being a distinct phrase and meaning from "the TIMES of the Gentiles" ('Gentile domination over Israel' reflected in Neb's 'statue/image' dream, with Neb as 'head of gold' and which started in 606bc and ends at end of trib, per Rev11:1)]

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance [/irrevocable].



[the section of Romans 9-11 being about "nations": "Israel [singular nation]" and "the Gentiles [plural nations]"]

The reformation has come. The use of Jewish flesh as types and shadows in various historically true parables that hid the spiritual meaning has come to a end.

Salvation has nothing to do with one nation apposed to another. Or flesh and blood, against flesh and blood. The Jew were used to represent both belief and unbelief to the world. Just as the unclean and clean animal used in the same way in ceremonial laws. Laws that pertained to ceremonies to point ahead .

The word Israel has a meaning attached to it. Israel does not mean Jew. It cannot mean whatever a person decides it to. the meaning must be searched out.

Its simply a term used to represent one who has had a encounter with God and has overcome .which all could describe Christianity .
The reason Jacob's name was changed. Not all born again Israel is Israel. Just as the eternity of difference between a inward born again Jew and one that has Jewish flesh .Same kind of flesh as a gentile (corrupted).

When the reformation came have fulfilled all the promises to the Jewish nation to be used in the temporal way . The Jews lost their temporal identity .It clearly became no longer Jew and gentile. (no need)

The all Israel shall be saved is not in respect to a outward Jew but the whole body, as Christ's chaste virgin bride, the church. .

"Fulness of the Gentiles now that the reformation has come includes members from any nation . A outward Jew is no less considered a gentile ( pagan) today than any other nation .

A terrible tribulation one like never before or ever again for a outward Jew. They have no false hiding place from God. They return to their gentile roots . Abraham's mother was a Amorite and father a Hittite.

 

[Journeyman]

that is still future. Jesus did destroy on the cross in a sense but in actuality its only fulfilled in future.

No, its manifested in the future. In the example of our Lord, his reign over all the powers of darkness was shown after 3 days and 3 nights.

come on this is ridicilous now im sorry to be so unconstructive. but what can i say you? you are saying things that just are observable not true

Its not apparent Melach, because the world looks at turning the other cheek as weakness. It's not. It's strength. Jesus reigns over people in love, in compassion and patience

and he shall divide the spoil with the strong Isa.53:12

The strong are believers.

Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Lk.10:19

It is this current reign of Christ in us, in the weakness of flesh, that will end at his return.

 

[iamsoandso]

No, its manifested in the future. In the example of our Lord, his reign over all the powers of darkness was shown after 3 days and 3 nights.


Its not apparent Melach, because the world looks at turning the other cheek as weakness. It's not. It's strength. Jesus reigns over people in love, in compassion and patience

and he shall divide the spoil with the strong Isa.53:12

The strong are believers.

Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Lk.10:19

It is this current reign of Christ in us, in the weakness of flesh, that will end at his return.

lol here you say they are given power over serpents and scorpions(is in the bible) and in post #600 you said the last enemy has been destroyed,death. ,,,, "Here I'll give you power over things that do not exist"? who do we believe you or you?

 

[Journeyman]

lol here you say they are given power over serpents and scorpions(is in the bible) and in post #600 you said the last enemy has been destroyed,death. ,,,, "Here I'll give you power over things that do not exist"? who do we believe you or you?

I don't understand your problem. Since we now have by Christ power over all our enemies, death has no power over us,

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life 1Jn.5:13

Believers have eternal life now. If you believe the serpent Satan can kill you, you don't believe Jesus.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Get away with what? Telling people that unrepentant sinners WILL NOT CONTINUE FOR ANOTHER 1000 YEARS AFTER JESUS APPEARS IN PERSON?

The "thousand years reign" is very simple to understand when we consider how Jesus destroyed the last enemy....death.

I forget, I know your position is "Preterist," but some have slightly differing views and I forget what yours is on this point:

Do you believe that Revelation 19:19-21 / 16:14-16 / 20:5 has already taken place [or, takes place on an individual basis, in an ongoing sense] ?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The word Israel has a meaning attached to it.

I believe that ALL 73 instances of the word "Israel" in the NT always means "Israel." (only 3 of them are disputed amongst Covenant Theologians, even); see entire listing at link, below. Here's the three:

[quoting from link]

--Romans 9:6 - "Paul draws a contrast of two Israels: Israel the whole, and believing Israel within Israel the whole. Both Israels comprise Jews only. While some Covenant Theologians wish to make the believing Israel the Church, other Covenant Theologians agree that this verse contrasts Jews who believe and Jews who do not."

--Romans 11:26 - "The prophecy that all Israel will be saved. Covenant Theologians are split on the meaning of this verse. Generally speaking, Covenant Amillennialists see this as a reference to the Church, while Covenant Postmillennialists and Covenant Premillennialists see it as a reference to national ethnic Israel."

--Galatians 6:16 - "Paul’s reference to the “Israel of God” is the only reference used by all Covenant Theologians to prove that the Church is called Israel. This verse will be discussed in detail below"

"The only one verse on which all Covenant Theologians are unanimous is Galatians 6:16. This is the one and only verse that even comes close to saying what Covenant Theologians want it to say. Therefore, it will be given its own separate treatment."

[end quoting; bold and underline mine]

"How is the Term Israel Used in the New Testament?" -
http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/reformed/israelaf.htm

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

is not in respect to a outward Jew but the whole body

I believe Romans 2:29's "For he is a Jew, which IS ONE inwardly..." is NOT saying that any "Gentile" who becomes saved turns into a Jew [inwardly]. [nor "real Israel" or "spiritual Israel" or any such terminology] The text here is referring only to "Jews".

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Get away with what?

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 2Pet.3:10-11

Get away with what? Telling people that unrepentant sinners WILL NOT CONTINUE FOR ANOTHER 1000 YEARS AFTER JESUS APPEARS IN PERSON?

The "thousand years reign" is very simple to understand when we consider how Jesus destroyed the last enemy....death.

Have no idea what your babbling here
God said specific things will happen. If they do not happen AS said then God is a liar. His reputation is not anything, and he is not the great prophet/God he claims to be.

Its as simple as that!

 

[iamsoandso]

I don't understand your problem. Since we now have by Christ power over all our enemies, death has no power over us,

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life 1Jn.5:13

Believers have eternal life now. If you believe the serpent Satan can kill you, you don't believe Jesus.

lol If what you say is true then Paul himself don't believe Jesus in 1 Corinthians 15:26 https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/15.htm I'll give you the entire chapter so you can read up to it.

In 2 Corinthians 11:14 https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_corinthians/11.htm Paul warns of the same devil masquerading as an angel of light and would not have needed to do so if he no longer existed as a threat.

And will until the restoration of all things Acts 3:21 https://biblehub.com/interlinear/acts/3-21.htm and Rev. 19:21 and Rev. 20:10 are fulfilled.

 

[cobalt1959]

Splitting hairs between physical and literal. I already pointed out that Peter claimed a spiritual fulfillment:






"You don't have a time of distress in 70 AD that has been unequaled since"

Depends how you view this, this was God's nation, God's city and God's temple, so in this sense there will never be such as "time of distress" such as that as the destruction of the nation, city, temple and covenant ever. Read Josephus for a view of how bad it got in the war back then.

Taking one line such as you have in an attempt to bifurcate the "physical" fulfillment and the "literal fulfillment is an arbitrary "hermeneutic".

Since when are hermeneutics important to an Amillennialist? If Josephus were alive during World War II, I am pretty sure that he would view the massacre of 6 million Jews as worse than the localized death toll in Jerusalem in 70 AD. Yes, I know how Josephus describes it. You want to confine the suffering to that specific time period because you have to to make your eschatology work. It doesn't work anyway, real-world, but that never stops people who want to take a literal translation and fulfillment of prophecy and toss it out the window while making it all allegory and spiritual in nature. "I know what it says, but it doesn't mean that" is the Amillennial game. And your trying to correct others?

 

[cobalt1959]

Okay, let me see now...

So you are stating that the generation that sees the abomination of desolation is the generation that Christ is referring to?

As well you are stating that some of Matthew 24 is fulfilled and some is yet to be fulfilled, where is the delineation in the Olivet discourse between what has happened and what will happen?

The delineation is extremely easy to find. All you have to do is look at the text. You tell me where it's at. I already know where it's at. Me telling you where it is isn't going to help you correct your position.

 

[crossnote]

I believe Romans 2:29's "For he is a Jew, which IS ONE inwardly..." is NOT saying that any "Gentile" who becomes saved turns into a Jew [inwardly]. [nor "real Israel" or "spiritual Israel" or any such terminology] The text here is referring only to "Jews".

That's right because those are the ones Paul has been directing his point to since vs 17.

 

[dcontroversal]

I do not see how they think they can get away with this? Nor do they see how they tarnish Gods name and reputation.

AMEN........like I said....another cake taker..........been a while since I felt compelled to use that designation......

 

[Journeyman]

I forget, I know your position is "Preterist," but some have slightly differing views and I forget what yours is on this point:

Do you believe that Revelation 19:19-21 / 16:14-16 / 20:5 has already taken place [or, takes place on an individual basis, in an ongoing sense] ?

Concerning the final judgment, no.

Do you believe any person who isn't changed from a mortal body to an immortal body could survive the coming of Jesus as Peter described it?

 

[Journeyman]

lol If what you say is true then Paul himself don't believe Jesus in 1 Corinthians 15:26 https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/15.htm I'll give you the entire chapter so you can read up to it.

I know that chapter very well. Death is destroyed for believers by faith in Jesus. That's not the way death will be destroyed for unbelievers. You're making a terrible mistake.

In 2 Corinthians 11:14 https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_corinthians/11.htm Paul warns of the same devil masquerading as an angel of light and would not have needed to do so if he no longer existed as a threat.

And will until the restoration of all things Acts 3:21 https://biblehub.com/interlinear/acts/3-21.htm and Rev. 19:21 and Rev. 20:10 are fulfilled.

Satan is only a threat to anyone who abandons his faith in Christ. People who truly love the Lord don't have to worry about that.

 

[crossnote]

Concerning the final judgment, no.

Do you believe any person who isn't changed from a mortal body to an immortal body could survive the coming of Jesus as Peter described it?

I don't Believe Peter is referring to Christ's 2nd Coming.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
(2Pe 3:10)
Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
(2Pe 3:12-13)


It happens after the White Throne Judgment.

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. (Rev 20:11)

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
(Rev 21:1)

 

[Journeyman]

Have no idea what your babbling here

I'm asking you....how do mortal people survive the destruction of this universe as we know it at the return of Jesus,

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 2Pet.3:10-13

Go ahead. Explain how mortals will survive this.

God said specific things will happen. If they do not happen AS said then God is a liar. His reputation is not anything, and he is not the great prophet/God he claims to be.

Its as simple as that!

Jews use the same argument for why Jesus isn't the Messiah. What exactly is it that you believe God said specifically will happen after Jesus returns in a consiming fire?

 

[Journeyman]

I don't Believe Peter is referring to Christ's 2nd Coming.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
(2Pe 3:10)
Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
(2Pe 3:12-13)

It happens after the White Throne Judgment.

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. (Rev 20:11)

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
(Rev 21:1)

Peter is teaching about the return of Jesus. He says,

Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. vs.14

He's speaking of facing Jesus, the Judge of all mankind,

For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: Jn.5:22

The white throne judgment and Christ's judgment seat are synonymous.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I'm asking you....how do mortal people survive the destruction of this universe as we know it at the return of Jesus,

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 2Pet.3:10-13

Go ahead. Explain how mortals will survive this.


Jews use the same argument for why Jesus isn't the Messiah. What exactly is it that you believe God said specifically will happen after Jesus returns in a consiming fire?

I do not believe That is not the second comming, That is the END, After satan had been released one more time and gets an army together, and God wipes them out and the end begins.

So your going to sit there and use this ONE EVENT to prove that the MANY MANYT OTHER EVENTS God said WILL happen. Will not happen?

My point still stands. Your calling God a liar. And making his promises null and void. What good is my faith in God if he does not keep all of his promises he has made? My faith would be misplaced, That is one thing that is for sure.



And no. The great white and judgment seat are not synonymous. Death and hades are DELIEVERED to christ in one. And the dead IN CHRIST are risen in the other.