If Women Can't Have Authority Over Men in the Church, Why Are They Expected to Teach in School?

[Locoponydirtman]

There is absolutely no reason to think a man in leadership over a woman is any less of a potential temptation than a woman in leadership over a man. I agree though; women should teach women, and men should teach men. Who was deceived in Genesis 3 is irrelevant.

Except Paul makes a point of who was deceived.
But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.
1 TIMOTHY 2:12‭-‬14 NASB
He said it for a reason.

Sadly, being married is no guarantee that a person won't be tempted either. It only guarantees that the person will be under less scrutiny in that area....

True enough, however there is much better odds that married folks with their family business handled properly. There will never be any guarantee with humans.

 

[seoulsearch]

Seoul I think using women's gifts by being support preacher and teaching future pastors is enough. The woman is not allowed to lead his husband per scripture. She should only support him. Should she lead the whole church? Leading the whole church means leading her husband also.

I understand this is your stance, Tinkerbell, and you know I highly respect you.

I don't agree with many of your points, and I know you don't agree with mine either, but I am thankful for your contributions to this discussion.

I personally believe there is a point where the will and means to obey God comes before gender.

Let's say that there is a married couple in which each person has a talent for leading and teaching, but the husband is the official pastor of the church.

If that pastor has an addiction to watching illicit sex on his computer every night and another man can't be found to replace him, but yet his wife was leading a spiritually clean life and had the ability to lead, I would very prayerfully consider following the wife's leading instead.

I don't believe God would tell me I need to follow someone solely based on their gender, but again, that's just my own perspective.

 

[Tinkerbell725]

I understand this is your stance, Tinkerbell, and you know I highly respect you.

I don't agree with many of your points, and I know you don't agree with mine either, but I am thankful for your contributions to this discussion.

I personally believe there is a point where the will and means to obey God comes before gender.

Let's say that there is a married couple in which each person has a talent for leading and teaching, but the husband is the official pastor of the church.

If that pastor has an addiction to watching illicit sex on his computer every night and another man can't be found to replace him, but yet his wife was leading a spiritually clean life and had the ability to lead, I would very prayerfully consider following the wife's leading instead.

I don't believe God would tell me I need to follow someone solely based on their gender, but again, that's just my own perspective.

In this example, I don't think the wife can focus on preaching because she has a lot on her plate. Her husband needs a lot of support to help him get back to the right path. I think she must do her duty as a wife first. I think God would understand.

 

[Locoponydirtman]

I understand this is your stance, Tinkerbell, and you know I highly respect you.

I don't agree with many of your points, and I know you don't agree with mine either, but I am thankful for your contributions to this discussion.

I personally believe there is a point where the will and means to obey God comes before gender.

Let's say that there is a married couple in which each person has a talent for leading and teaching, but the husband is the official pastor of the church.

If that pastor has an addiction to watching illicit sex on his computer every night and another man can't be found to replace him, but yet his wife was leading a spiritually clean life and had the ability to lead, I would very prayerfully consider following the wife's leading instead.

I don't believe God would tell me I need to follow someone solely based on their gender, but again, that's just my own perspective.

I think you are missing the scripture.
Yes that pastor should step down or be stepped down, however the mandate to have the family in order would prevent her from being qualified even if gender didn't. For example if the wife of a pastor is addicted to porn he needs to step down and get his family business in order. The letters to Timothy are clear and there is nothing to debate about it.

 

[seoulsearch]

In this example, I don't think the wife can focus on preaching because she has a lot on her plate. Her husband needs a lot of support to help him get back to the right path. I think she must do her duty as a wife first. I think God would understand.

I think you are missing the scripture.
Yes that pastor should step down or be stepped down, however the mandate to have the family in order would prevent her from being qualified even if gender didn't. For example if the wife of a pastor is addicted to porn he needs to step down and get his family business in order. The letters to Timothy are clear and there is nothing to debate about it.

I understand your points about family order and agree that things would need to be taken of at home.

But I do wonder, if regularly viewing pornography was enforced as a reason for dismissal from a church leadership position, how many men would be left to lead, and what would the church do to make up for the shortage, because I'm guessing that would eliminate almost all of them.

I'm not saying this as a criticism, but as a statement of reality. (And yes, I understand that now days, it could well be that the woman has the problem instead of, or right alongside, her husband.)

 

[Tinkerbell725]

I understand your points about family order and agree that things would need to be taken of at home.

But I do wonder, if regularly viewing pornography was enforced as a reason for dismissal from a church leadership position, how many men would be left to lead, and what would the church do to make up for the shortage, because I'm guessing that would eliminate almost all of them.

I'm not saying this as a criticism, but as a statement of reality. (And yes, I understand that now days, it could well be that the woman has the problem instead of, or right alongside, her husband.)

That is the worst case scenario. Hopefully it won't happen by God's grace.

 

[seoulsearch]

That is the worst case scenario. Hopefully it won't happen by God's grace.

If the Biblical qualifications for leadership were adhered to as stringently as they are debated, and then actually enforced in all cases, I'm pretty sure it's already happened, and probably a long time ago.

 

[kaylagrl]

Should a woman who comes to Christ years before her husband does allow him to lead her from a position of ignorance?

What of the unmarried woman?

What of the woman who is gifted to preach and teach, and whose husband is gifted with helps?

Where in Scripture does it say that a woman is "not allowed to lead" her husband?

I don't ask these questions merely to pick on you. I ask them because I believe it is worthwhile to challenge attitudes that aren't solidly rooted in Scripture or applicable across the full range of real-life situations.

Another issue is when a woman is the only one available to preach. A small church my sister attends had an older single woman pastoring the church. When she retired a married woman stepped up to take the role. My BIL left the church because she was married. I said " that makes no sense, you sat under a female pastor before". So what happens? Close down the church because there is no man to rescue it? I've traveled in so many places where the church was basically run by women. Either men weren't attending or had passed away. Should all these churches close their doors because no man is there to keep them open?? smh


(not making a point to you specifically,I know your stance on this)

 

[Locoponydirtman]

I understand your points about family order and agree that things would need to be taken of at home.

But I do wonder, if regularly viewing pornography was enforced as a reason for dismissal from a church leadership position, how many men would be left to lead, and what would the church do to make up for the shortage, because I'm guessing that would eliminate almost all of them.

I'm not saying this as a criticism, but as a statement of reality. (And yes, I understand that now days, it could well be that the woman has the problem instead of, or right alongside, her husband.)

That's a good point. I'm not trying to be condemning or judgemental, but I do believe pornography addiction would be grounds for a pastor to need to step back from the ministry and get this under control. It's sad but pornography is the scourge of our time.

 

[TLC209]

I understand this is your stance, Tinkerbell, and you know I highly respect you.

I don't agree with many of your points, and I know you don't agree with mine either, but I am thankful for your contributions to this discussion.

I personally believe there is a point where the will and means to obey God comes before gender.

Let's say that there is a married couple in which each person has a talent for leading and teaching, but the husband is the official pastor of the church.

If that pastor has an addiction to watching illicit sex on his computer every night and another man can't be found to replace him, but yet his wife was leading a spiritually clean life and had the ability to lead, I would very prayerfully consider following the wife's leading instead.

I don't believe God would tell me I need to follow someone solely based on their gender, but again, that's just my own perspective.

Well yes it is your persepective. Because you are speaking from your genders perspective. And for you, you are allowed to be taught by a woman. The bible teaches me a woman cannot teach the man. So for me my perspective is from my gender. So maybe its harder for you to understand in that regard because you are not a man.

 

[seoulsearch]

[IQUOTE="TLC209, post: 3916685, member: 282492"]Well yes it is your persepective. Because you are speaking from your genders perspective. And for you, you are allowed to be taught by a woman. The bible teaches me a woman cannot teach the man. So for me my perspective is from my gender. So maybe its harder for you to understand in that regard because you are not a man.[/QUOTE]

I disagree that my understanding is limited due to gender alone, but appreciate your contributions to this thread.

 

[Lanolin]

I havent attended any of the denoms you mention, so those inconsisitencies arent apparent to me.
I also didnt go to any christian school..or college so no experience of that either.

In general of the churches I have been attending its the males that take the lead, and they do invite women to speak. So if a female preacher wants to speak they would usually be invited to do so by the pastor first. In one church which was a baptist, IVe noticed that the pastors wives are very quiet or actually arent that involved with co-pastoring.

The presbyterian one sometimes the wife gets up and speaks but only when urged to by her husband! Their daughters have spoken a few times, even preached. We have some elders and some highly educated women in our congregation...and there is no bar to women speaking if they are invited to do so.

Non denoms I've been to the pastor and wife have more of an equal role, that sometimes the wife is even called pastrix or pastor as well.

In secular schools I havent had any problem with female teachers but then im female. There is a lack of male teachers actually. I dont know how young men really feel when they are taught by women. 18-22 is an interesting age. Ive worked in male doiminated environments for example engineering school. I recall more women were encourgaed to study engineering. I dont recall many women professors teaching engineering, but a few did in support roles like librarianship.

The lutheran denomination and its schools sound very legalistic. I dont really know how future pastors are taught in that environment, but I would say the training ground for a pastor isnt always straight from college and then they go and pastor a church. I would be very wary of them if that was so. They need to have a bit of life experience first. Pastoring involves a lot more than just preaching a sermon on sundays. That would be the bare minimum responsibilty of a pastor.

TItus says in 2:6 young men likewise exhort to be sober minded.

Letter to titus doesnt actually forbid the aged women from teaching young men. It does say for the aged women to teach the younger women, but then says likewise about the young men. Pauls letter to titus urges him to be a good example and be careful to maintain good works. To deny ungodliness and worldly lusts. He writes to Titus these thing speak and exhort, and rebuke with all authority.

When you are a teacher you have the authority. Prisicilla and aquila, a husband and wife team, did teach the way of the Lord more perfectly to those who were ignorant of it.

Where does this authority come from...it comes from above. I have give you all authority to tread on snakes and scorpions and power over the enemy...recall when the holy spirit was poured out on the believers, not just on the men, but the women also were included in the prophesy 'i will pour out my spirit on all flesh' and goes on to say on sons AND daughters, on servants AND Maidservants.

Tradiitonally at the time of Jesus, jewish males were very segregated from the women. Why because women were told they were unclean and they were to keep away from them. In those days they werent the best in terms of being sanitary. So men often avoided women altogether. Actually it was the womn who were more diligent in keeping pure than the men back then...women would go to the mikveh and be baptised, to be clean after their periods, but cos men dont have them, many dont bother. So here come john the baptists suddenly telling lots of men to be baptisied and cleanse themselves too. Thats radical.

 

[kaylagrl]

Well yes it is your persepective. Because you are speaking from your genders perspective. And for you, you are allowed to be taught by a woman. The bible teaches me a woman cannot teach the man. So for me my perspective is from my gender. So maybe its harder for you to understand in that regard because you are not a man.

I wonder how do you feel about female evangelists? Like Joyce Meyer, not her denomination or what she teaches, but the fact that she is a woman?

 

[melita916]

So... how about women who lead the music part of the service? She may not necessarily be the worship leader, but she leads a song here and there?

“Oh she’s not preaching tho.” But what if she’s quoting scripture? What if she is giving an encouraging word as she’s leading a song?

I’m just a wondering.

 

[Lanolin]

Kathryn kuhlman was another well known healing evangelist, and many came to christ because of her ministry. I recall she said why she was anointed in this role because God couldnt find any men willing at the time.

When God gives a woman authority...its often because the men have abdicated theirs or failed to step up. He would have asked them first. Thats often Gods way...but God can work through anyone regardless of gender.

Recall how esther was called to be queen and save her people. Why didnt God tell Mordecai to speak. He was male he could have! He really wanted to. But no God had called esther to do it and raised her in the posiition to do so. Mordecai said if she did not do so, God would have someone else speak. But she did and her people were vindicated.

 

[TLC209]

I wonder how do you feel about female evangelists? Like Joyce Meyer, not her denomination or what she teaches, but the fact that she is a woman?

I feel shes false. A wolf in sheeps clothing. She proclaims she is gifted as teacher but that is contrary to scripture. The Holy Spirit cannot go against the Word of God. So she must be lead by a different spirit.

She joked about her husband while she was in the pulpit, how he could put up with listening to her all these 30 years while she preached. He sat there like a goof, while she flat out emasculeted him in front of the audience and television. A shell of a man. If you can call him that. I dont consider that a man. But when your wife brings in money by the boatload im sure he can manage with the insults. We know who wears the pants in that relationship. Thats anti-Christ. That is the opposite of Gods order. That is satans work.

 

[Locoponydirtman]

These men must also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons if they are beyond reproach. Women must likewise be dignified, not malicious gossips, but temperate, faithful in all things.
1 TIMOTHY 3:10‭-‬11 NASB

Let us not forget Phoebe, or Damaris along with other women in the ministry

 

[rubberball]

I think the issue is clear. However when a lady teaches a mixed class, if she is doing so under the authority of the pastor, then she is not out of line with Scripture. Everyone who teaches in the church should be under the authority of the pastor. The pastor is under the authority of Jesus. The teachings of Scripture regarding spiritual leadership in the home and the church are Scriptures relating to just that, home and church. There is no prohibition in Scripture about a lady teaching a class in a college, including a Christian college. It may be Christian but it is not the church nor is it the home. The role of leadership in the home and in the church has been decided by God. It is not up for debate or renegotiation. The law of first mention should us help understand. This means we go to the first place we find roles given and authority assigned, Genesis 1-3. Scripture affirms it has been this way from creation.
Think about where these arguments lead. For example, if there doesn't have to be submission to the spiritual leadership of the husband in the home, then the church no longer has to be submissive to the headship of Christ. You've made Ephesians 5 invalid. When we try to redefine the role of husband and wife to make it palatable to our culture, we trust our intellect more than we trust God and invalidate the teaching and authority of Scripture. If we do that then where will it stop and what is our authority?
Ephesians 5; 1 and 2 Timothy; Titus; 1 Peter 5.

 

[tourist]

Another issue is when a woman is the only one available to preach. A small church my sister attends had an older single woman pastoring the church. When she retired a married woman stepped up to take the role. My BIL left the church because she was married. I said " that makes no sense, you sat under a female pastor before". So what happens? Close down the church because there is no man to rescue it? I've traveled in so many places where the church was basically run by women. Either men weren't attending or had passed away. Should all these churches close their doors because no man is there to keep them open?? smh


(not making a point to you specifically,I know your stance on this)

No man to step in? Yeah, shut the churches down. It's the biblically correct thing to do in these circumstances. Not too sure about it being the spiritually correct thing to do though.

 

[tourist]

I think the issue is clear. However when a lady teaches a mixed class, if she is doing so under the authority of the pastor, then she is not out of line with Scripture. Everyone who teaches in the church should be under the authority of the pastor. The pastor is under the authority of Jesus. The teachings of Scripture regarding spiritual leadership in the home and the church are Scriptures relating to just that, home and church. There is no prohibition in Scripture about a lady teaching a class in a college, including a Christian college. It may be Christian but it is not the church nor is it the home. The role of leadership in the home and in the church has been decided by God. It is not up for debate or renegotiation. The law of first mention should us help understand. This means we go to the first place we find roles given and authority assigned, Genesis 1-3. Scripture affirms it has been this way from creation.
Think about where these arguments lead. For example, if there doesn't have to be submission to the spiritual leadership of the husband in the home, then the church no longer has to be submissive to the headship of Christ. You've made Ephesians 5 invalid. When we try to redefine the role of husband and wife to make it palatable to our culture, we trust our intellect more than we trust God and invalidate the teaching and authority of Scripture. If we do that then where will it stop and what is our authority?
Ephesians 5; 1 and 2 Timothy; Titus; 1 Peter 5.

I believe that in each individual marriage it is the husband and wife who define their roles.