Amillennialists...Here's a chance to state your case.

[Melach]

Yeah, Dwight will put you straight with his statements such as "the church was entirely unknown in the old testament" and an "interruption of God's program for Israel".

These are the bogus ideas that form the rotten root of dispensation-al-ism and totally without merit.

i havent found anything without merit its bible. i dont think he is apostle but why do listen to any pastors if you can only read the bible just you?
he hasnt said that it was an interruption.

isnt it true? Jesus offered the kingdom to jews, they didnt accept, and yes God knew and ordained it would happen like that (acts 4:27-28). they still refused.

God brought salvation to gentiles. to jews first then to gentiles st. paul said always went to synagogues first.

 

[Melach]

I knew I should not have come in, took a break. I should have stayed away!

come back friend

 

[garee]

But Jesus was real not spiritual??

Thanks, I would offer.

Yes, a real demonstration in which as the Son of man declared His flesh profits for nothing as to the work of the eternal Holy Spirit that lived in Jesus. .He is the lamb slain from before the foundation of the world. On the 7th day he rested from all the work necessary to creation a new bride, the church..

He came to demonstrate that promised in Joel and Isaiah 53. The unseen work of pouring out His unseen Spirit of Christ on corrupted flesh. This was necessary to put away the wage of sin in the flesh . And is why Jesus's flesh was typified as sinful as the demonstration reveals , as the bearer of sin. The law l kills the spiritual understanding give life . his word is Spirt and life giving. Again the corrupted flesh profits for nothing as a spiritual work

Romans 8:3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Coming as a theophany, a vision as he did several times like that of Melchezedek was not adequate for the demonstration . Real corrupted flesh must be used to show the work of God pouring out His spirt as if it was blood. Blood is used as a metaphor to represent the unseen Holy Spirit, Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:7(For we walk by faith, not by sight

 

[iamsoandso]

Mr. iamsoandso, now I wish I could go back and read all your posts but until I am able to, can you tell me in a nutshell what your thoughts are, do you see any fulfillment in 70 AD?
Do you think there will be a millennial kingdom?
My sense from another thread you do not agree that modern day Israel is a fulfillment of prophecy?

Yes I do see what Jesus said of Jerusalem destroyed as happening then(recieved deadly wound and in the pit in Rev. 17:8)... I see millennial's as in Genesis 2:4 as the gennerations of the heavens and earth simular to OT beliefs or/and early 2nd,3rd century millennialism so us in the sixth day and the seventh future. And modern day Israel as man made according to prophecy(let us make an image/ 1948=Rev 17:8's fullfilment ...) and the true New Jerusalem coming after it(antichrist kingdom rises first,then Jesus returns)...

 

[UnderGrace]

Yes I do see what Jesus said of Jerusalem destroyed as happening then(recieved deadly wound and in the pit in Rev. 17:8)... I see millennial's as in Genesis 2:4 as the gennerations of the heavens and earth simular to OT beliefs or/and early 2nd,3rd century millennialism so us in the sixth day and the seventh future. And modern day Israel as man made according to prophecy(let us make an image/ 1948=Rev 17:8's fullfilment ...) and the true New Jerusalem coming after it(antichrist kingdom rises first,then Jesus returns)...

Hmm interesting

So where does Matthew 24 transition from fulfillment in 70 AD to a futurist prophecy?

 

[Melach]

literal prophecy is required or else we dont know when its fulfilled and we get different spiritual interpretations. each person gives different spiritual interpretation so its impossible to know who is right if its not literal (not taking out figures of speech or declared symbols )

 

[iamsoandso]

Hmm interesting

So where does Matthew 24 transition from fulfillment in 70 AD to a futurist prophecy?

lol, to save me from re typing it a few post prior to post #462 and #464 is where I began...

 

[garee]

i havent found anything without merit its bible. i dont think he is apostle but why do listen to any pastors if you can only read the bible just you?
he hasnt said that it was an interruption.

isnt it true? Jesus offered the kingdom to jews, they didnt accept, and yes God knew and ordained it would happen like that (acts 4:27-28). they still refused.

God brought salvation to gentiles. to jews first then to gentiles st. paul said always went to synagogues first.

God is no respecter of the corrupted flesh of any nation.

He first brought salvation to Abel by applying his grace and mercy on him. Freely giving him a born again spirit that will be raised on the last day.

Was Abel the first martyr of the faith Jewish?

I believe God set aside Jews to be used as a picture in parables to show the "whole pagan world" the difference between faith and no faith, belief and unbelief

I would offer. What he says as a blessing to a inward Jew applies to any born again child of God. No difference. God purifies both hearts as in any heart by a work of his faith that works in us .Its what pleases Him . What he says as a curse to the outward Jews he is speaking to the whole world.

What should please us is a desire to do the will as we are yoked with Emmanuel . The "free will" food the disciples at first knew not of. Which is doing the will of the Creator as designed. This is before mankind experienced doing the will of the strangers "voice"; (you shall surely not die), spoken by the murderer from the beginning in respect to what the eyes see (walk by sight) .

God did not desire mankind experience good and evil .He simply desires we trust his word of one unseen . Faith as the holy place... "Presence of God" disappeared. The corrupted appeared, the glory departed. Mankind knew they were naked without the glory of God. Fig leaves that represent the healing of the nations where used a temporal representations of the coming glory.

What he says to curse an outward Jew having to do with what the eyes see, the temporal, applies to any pagan nation of the world. God is not a Jew nor a gentile. He is not a man as us. .. the one time demonstration is over. The veil representing the corrupted flesh of Jesus is rent, the time of reformation has come nearly two thousand literal years ago.

Like the term "outward Jew" that would pertain to their flesh... which does not profit just as Jesus said of His own flesh it profits for nothing nada. It would be seeking after the things seen. And that not seeking after that not seen.... the faith principle.It is that which can and does profit. . Using the Jews in parables and types adds nothing to their flesh which an outward Jew believes does. This would be a sign to the whole world.... God is no respecter of persons or nations. .

Just like the ceremonial laws using clean and unclean food, or animals they are used to preach a suffering Christ beforehand and the glory that followed .The graves were opened . (first ressurection) All of the metaphors used in parables give us the unseen spirit understanding. They all point to the unseen eternal Holy Place of His hidden glory.

 

[UnderGrace]

literal prophecy is required or else we dont know when its fulfilled and we get different spiritual interpretations. each person gives different spiritual interpretation so its impossible to know who is right if its not literal (not taking out figures of speech or declared symbols )

Just be aware of predictive programming ... "Late Great Planet Earth" being a perfect example, it did not matter that it did not happen since many still think it will.

 

[azamzimtoti]

Yeah, Dwight will put you straight with his statements such as "the church was entirely unknown in the old testament" and an "interruption of God's program for Israel".

More from Peter that refutes Dwight Pentecost's claim "the church was entirely unknown in the old testament":

(Acts 3:24 And all the prophets, from Samuel and those who followed him, have spoken about and announced these days.)

(Acts 3:25 You are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant that God made with your ancestors, saying to Abraham, 'And in your descendants all the nations of the earth will be blessed )

Peter in the above as stating that the church started at Pentecost had been "spoken about and announced (in) these days."

Peter is saying that these days were applicable to them as "the sons of the prophets and of the covenant that God made with your ancestors ", so this refutes Dwight's claim that there was ANY "interruption of God's program for Israel".

The above also refutes the dispensational "bedrock" claim that there is a gap between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel.

 

[Melach]

More from Peter that refutes Dwight Pentecost's claim "the church was entirely unknown in the old testament":

(Acts 3:24 And all the prophets, from Samuel and those who followed him, have spoken about and announced these days.)

(Acts 3:25 You are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant that God made with your ancestors, saying to Abraham, 'And in your descendants all the nations of the earth will be blessed )

Peter in the above as stating that the church started at Pentecost had been "spoken about and announced (in) these days."

Peter is saying that these days were applicable to them as "the sons of the prophets and of the covenant that God made with your ancestors ", so this refutes Dwight's claim that there was ANY "interruption of God's program for Israel".

The above also refutes the dispensational "bedrock" claim that there is a gap between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel.

how does this refute gap between 69th and 70th week of daniel?

 

[garee]

literal prophecy is required or else we dont know when its fulfilled and we get different spiritual interpretations. each person gives different spiritual interpretation so its impossible to know who is right if its not literal (not taking out figures of speech or declared symbols )

Literal would seem to represent literature. and not what kind of interpretation.

The written law is the literal law of God called the letter of the law. The law of faith is to the unseen law called spirit of the law it heals and also creates anew.. I think it could be why it is called the mystery of faith (Christ in us the hope of glory) we are given a understanding but it comes from the peace of God. The perfect work of the father and Son working together in harmony to accomplish the will of God with a peace that surpasses all understanding as our living hope held out before us.

Interestingly in he last chapter or 66 th book (Revelation) out of all of the books it seems to have a greater place of varying private interpretations as our own personal commentaries of what we hope we are hearing as we study hoping we have God's approval. It begins by informing us that not only was it inspirited but also signified a synonym of typify. a word that means to show something not seen using the things seen .

Revelation 1 King James Version (KJV) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

I would ask how many words or words phases would a person attribute to signify or typify the unseen understanding. Let say the first 7 verses of Revelation 20.

For instance .What does the word key signify, or bottomless pit, or what does a literal chain signify, or a literal hand, knowing lying spirit have no physical bodies as if we di wrestle against flesh and blood. . Legion is simply a body of lying spirits?

Revelation 20:1 King James Version (KJV) And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

I would appear as 5 in the first verse.

I would say the key is the gospel as that which loosens or and chain that binds the gates of hell. The bottomless stronghold of the father of lies .

How many more metaphors are used in that parable that hide the spiritual, signified understanding ( the gospel) ?

Revelation 20:2-7 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

 

[iamsoandso]

God is no respecter of the corrupted flesh of any nation.

He first brought salvation to Abel by applying his grace and mercy on him. Freely giving him a born again spirit that will be raised on the last day.

Was Abel the first martyr of the faith Jewish?

I believe God set aside Jews to be used as a picture in parables to show the "whole pagan world" the difference between faith and no faith, belief and unbelief

I would offer. What he says as a blessing to a inward Jew applies to any born again child of God. No difference. God purifies both hearts as in any heart by a work of his faith that works in us .Its what pleases Him . What he says as a curse to the outward Jews he is speaking to the whole world.

What should please us is a desire to do the will as we are yoked with Emmanuel . The "free will" food the disciples at first knew not of. Which is doing the will of the Creator as designed. This is before mankind experienced doing the will of the strangers "voice"; (you shall surely not die), spoken by the murderer from the beginning in respect to what the eyes see (walk by sight) .

God did not desire mankind experience good and evil .He simply desires we trust his word of one unseen . Faith as the holy place... "Presence of God" disappeared. The corrupted appeared, the glory departed. Mankind knew they were naked without the glory of God. Fig leaves that represent the healing of the nations where used a temporal representations of the coming glory.

What he says to curse an outward Jew having to do with what the eyes see, the temporal, applies to any pagan nation of the world. God is not a Jew nor a gentile. He is not a man as us. .. the one time demonstration is over. The veil representing the corrupted flesh of Jesus is rent, the time of reformation has come nearly two thousand literal years ago.

Like the term "outward Jew" that would pertain to their flesh... which does not profit just as Jesus said of His own flesh itngs profits for nothing nada. It would be seeking after the things seen. And that not seeking after that not seen.... the faith principle.It is that which can and does profit. . Using the Jews in parables and types adds nothing to their flesh which an outward Jew believes does. This would be a sign to the whole world.... God is no respecter of persons or nations. .

Just like the ceremonial laws using clean and unclean food, or animals they are used to preach a suffering Christ beforehand and the glory that followed .The graves were opened . (first ressurection) All of the metaphors used in parables give us the unseen spirit understanding. They all point to the unseen eternal Holy Place of His hidden glory.

With respect,,,

I think that some how we(Christians) have from the second and third centuries debated this is spiritual or literal and so as if the power of suggestion we all followed the leader in it and have confused a many of things because of it(none being immune) .

Pardon me using you post as an example...

You use Abel as an example but you are not meaning he was spiritually slain by Cain but instead that he was literally slain in the flesh as a martyr in a literal manner. You literally believe he spoke to us in parables,you literally believe we have faith or do not. You literally believe the veil was rent at the time Jesus died and that the ceremonial laws were given literally to them representing another thing. You literally believe Christ suffered and that the graves were literally opened at that time. (you can see how this might easily confuse some correct?)

On the other side from the point of view of the literl-ist some argue that everything is literal but rarely do they say that nothing is spiritual but argue that the dialog of context should dictate it's application. At the same time most who over litteral-ize events surrounding ad70 end up seeking a future fulfillment of an head of the beast receiving an deadly wound(literally) when in Revelation 17:8(and Rev.13b) the angel states that the beast that was,was not yet is was already in the pit(had received it's wound past tense) and would later have it healed and ascend out again. And so end up trying to place it receiving a wound from the time Revelation was given and the modern date when it's clear it had already received it and was in the pit present tense(literally) at the time of Rev.17:8...

 

[azamzimtoti]

how does this refute gap between 69th and 70th week of daniel?

The gap implies that Jesus' ministry failed in that the supposed "majority" rejected Him, therefore the church was established as an "interim" plan until the "original" program would resume with the nation.

But this implies that the church was not the goal of the prophetic scriptures. But as we can see His crucifixion was the goal to enter His kingdom and establish the church. The dispensation position is the same as the two guys below (a physical kingdom):

(Luke 24:13-16) Now that very day two of them were on their way to a village called Emmaus, about seven miles from Jerusalem. They were talking to each other about all the things that had happened. While they were talking and debating these things, Jesus himself approached and began to accompany them. (but their eyes were kept from recognizing him). )

(Luke 24:17-21) Then he said to them, "What are these matters you are discussing so intently as you walk along?" And they stood still, looking sad. Then one of them, named Cleopas, answered him, "Are you the only visitor to Jerusalem who doesn't know the things that have happened there in these days?" He said to them, "What things?" "The things concerning Jesus the Nazarene," they replied, "a man who, with his powerful deeds and words, proved to be a prophet before God and all the people,

(Luke 24:20-21) and how our chief priests and rulers handed him over to be condemned to death, and crucified him But we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel. Not only this, but it is now the third day since these things happened.)


(Luke 24:25-27) So he said to them, "You foolish people - how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Wasn't it necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and enter into his glory?" Then beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted to them the things written about himself in all the scriptures.)

As we can see from the above that Jesus' crucifixion was the means to "redeem Israel" and in doing so establish the church to redeem them and the Gentiles.

 

[iamsoandso]

Not to cast rocks under any wheels but most futurist would point out that "redeem" https://biblehub.com/greek/3084.htm and https://biblehub.com/greek/600.htm "restore" aren't the same things. Then that afterward in Acts 1:6 the disciples still antisapate an actual restoration of an kingdom of Israel and then in Acts 3:21 https://biblehub.com/text/acts/3-21.htm after receiving the Holy Spirit(and the HS speaking through him) the resoration of all things are not spoken of as present tense but future tense to Acts 3.

 

[azamzimtoti]

(Acts 1:6 So when they had gathered together, they began to ask him, "Lord, is this the time when you are restoring the kingdom to Israel?")

At that time Israel (northern tribes) were not in the kingdom having been cast aside. The above does not imply a restoration of THE kingdom but a bringing of Israel (the diaspora) into Christ's kingdom.

After having spent time with Christ after his resurrection how can it be said that disciples still understood that the kingdom was physical rather than spiritual?

Judah was ruling in the days of Christ, yet it is written that the scepter would depart from them when Shiloh came:

(Gen 49:10 “The scepter shall not depart from Judah, Nor the ruler’s staff from between his feet, Until Shiloh comes, And to him shall be the obedience of the peoples.)

(Acts 3:23 ‘And it will be that every soul that does not heed that prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’ )

James writes to the 12 tribes that have been restored to the kingdom:

(James 1:1 James, a bond-servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes who are dispersed abroad: Greetings.)

(James 2:5 Listen, my beloved brethren: did not God choose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him ?)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The word in Acts 1:6 is:


600 apokathístēmi (from 570 /apistía, "separated from" and 2525 /kathístēmi, "have a definite standing") – properly, restore back to original standing, i.e. that existed before a fall; re-establish, returning back to the (ultimate) ideal; (figuratively) restore back to full freedom (the liberty of the original standing); to enjoy again, i.e. what was taken away by a destructive or life-dominating power.

600/apokathistēmi ("reestablish") emphasizes separation from the former, negative influence to enjoy what is forward (the restoration).

[source: Bible Hub]


EDIT: oops, I'm just now seeing "iamsoandso's" post (reading backwards through the latest posts )

 

[dcontroversal]

How do the futurists deal with Matthew 24:
34Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened.

In light of the words this generation?

The generation that will be alive during the time of his BODY PRESENCE............I do not understand how anyone can deny or reject that KEY......for the fulfillment of the prophecy surrounding the BODY PRESENCE of CHRIST and the END OF THE AGE CHRIST must be PRESENT IN BODY FORM...............

 

[UnderGrace]

The generation that will be alive during the time of his BODY PRESENCE............I do not understand how anyone can deny or reject that KEY......for the fulfillment of the prophecy surrounding the BODY PRESENCE of CHRIST and the END OF THE AGE CHRIST must be PRESENT IN BODY FORM...............

Agree, was He not in body present when He spoke those words?

 

[tourist]

Read to here.