Not By Works
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Well......the Roman soldiers change there minds during the event....at first mocking him, ridiculing him and then when he gave up the ghost and the earth quaked and darkness was over the land the one said..
Now the centurion, and those who were with him keeping guard over Jesus, when they saw the earthquake and the things that were happening, became very frightened and said, "Truly this was the Son of God!"
It is not beyond possible that one of the two changed his mind and acknowledge Jesus
for those who might be asking the same question as me i found this helpeful:
https://precepts.wordpress.com/2007/08/09/contradictions-the-reviling-of-the-thieves/
https://precepts.wordpress.com/2007/08/09/contradictions-the-reviling-of-the-thieves/
I think the best explanation (which I won't go into fully here) is that there were more than TWO persons who were crucified with Him...
--Matthew 27:44 has "robbers/open thieves/brigand/bandits [G3027 - lestai / lestes]"
--Luke 23:32 says "And there were also two other [of a distinct/different kind] criminals [G2557 - kakourgoi / kakourgos], led with Him to be put to death."
In John 19:32-33, it says, "Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with Him. But when they came to Jesus, and saw that He already having been dead, they brake not His legs" [I believe (likely) they would have gone in order, so came to Jesus after the first two in the line were done (not that there were ONLY two total, there)... I tend to see it this way
Make sense? ]EDIT: I'm just now seeing the post above mine
... and see a link there. Does it say something similar to what I've put? (boy, I'm a really slow typist, that post came while I was still typing! : P )
The Bible speaks of "good men" as did Jesus when he said "thou good and faithful servant" in Mat 25:21. Other examples of ordinary people being called "good" are Psa 112:5 and Tit 1:8.
When Jesus asked the rich young ruler, "Why do YOU call me good? No one is good, save one, that is, God" he was asking a leading question. Then he told the rich young ruler, "there is another who is good and that is God." Jesus never said he was God outright, but he did imply it. Those who understood what Jesus meant held it against him and crucified him because he made out he was God.
Only God could say to one and not the other, "To day thou shalt be with me in paradise."
Emphasis added by me.
You would be right Jimbone. You are one of the few that correctly represented what I have been saying.
1 John 3:14- bears witness to the words I put in red.
I believe we are kept by the power of God through faith. Just as we are saved by Grace through faith
I have never waivered on that. My whole argument was heart change (regeneration) results in life change.
I think Jimbone's words are fitting here...see especially parts in red
jimbone 98,682 I don't think he (Macabeus) is actually saying what you think he is about the overall concept. It's not you are saved and now have a list of fruit you HAVE to produce, a burden put on you, no he is saying that BECAUSE you are saved you by nature now will "AS A RESULT OF" salvation, produce fruit and it starts day one. It did for me brother, I can testify of this truth. Again I think a LOT of this is just bad blood between brothers at this point, and their should be no bad blood between any of us. Somebody is going to have humble themselves and forgive the other unconditionally and with no expectation, ready for any kind of response, this is necessary to ever come out of your stronghold and actually talk to the other person, as well as listen and try to understand them. Anytime I've done this, save 1, has resulted in some kind of understanding.
Jimbone takes the time to read with comprehension.
Jimbone's words are relevant here...
and why shouldn't it start day one?
1 John 3:14- 14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
If you have passed from death unto life, you love the brethren
and what is the biblical definition of love?
1 John 3:18- My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
what I am saying is this- it could be day 1, it could be day 10, it could be day 100. it could be.......
we are to bear fruit, we should not time frame how long it takes , because the Bible lays out no time frame for this to manifest.
But you and DC said it doesn't happen from day 1.
Because it takes a tree a long time to sprout, grow, blossom, and then bear fruit, the same is true of believers. That was your argument, remember?
And I was attacked and slandered for disagreeing with you when you guys said this. Remember?
Can someone read who is blind?
If one stands before the King and says I am covered by Jesus so can continue in sin
without change, what chance is there for agreement or change?
I have read day after day the claim we are all fallen sinners, the same and talking change
is delusional and hypocrisy, that walking like Jesus is fantasy.
And truly for them, they are stuck with an unresolved heart, wondering why things do not
move forward in Christ.
If they read what is written while always saying in their hearts, these guys are lying hypocrites,
who know nothing, it does not matter what is said. Jesus faced people just like this, and even
with miracles they could not deny, still they said He was evil and worthy of death.
Without an anchor of faith in ones heart, nothing will change. If one has just unbelief, and the
conviction deceivers are sharing, with no reality, they feel justified to be angry, and desire to
get rid of these annoying sharers. You can feel this in some, not having the love to see, we all
share from a common experience of Jesus and God, so should empathise and get along side and
see as the other sees, then maybe the Lords love will flow. Praise God He is graceful to His
people and shines a light on all our paths, Amen
I would agree that like a new born babe we start to grow in faith, but it takes a while, perhaps maybe years before we start to bear fruit.
in the scheme of things, some bear fruit quicker than others.
we are saved by nothing more than faith and belief in Christ. bearing fruit is a result of salvation. when you or anyone attaches bearing fruit to the cause or maintaining salvation, then that is wrong.
we have been asked by a member to tamp down the back and fourth bickering. I will honor this request, and let the above be my final statement on this matter.
A hard heart sees no change, because nothing has taken root.
When someone has something to lose, sinful behaviour they refuse to surrender,
any accusation to those who bring light will be used.
Never accept the word of a sinner who justifies their sin, like it is a badge of honour.
What sin are they talking about? Murder, theft, lying, adultery, coveting, miss-representing others,
dishonouring their parents. Or is it hurt covering vengeance, hatred, bitterness, unforgiveness.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
matt 5
The impure will not see anything or know anything.
5 For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person--such a man is an idolater--
has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Eph 5
Purity is part of the start of our walk. But I suspect some have never actually become pure at
all, or even believed God desires this in them.
So this is my challenge to those who believe God is ok with them abiding in sin, have you ever
really been purified, cleansed, made whole? Have you the faith to believe this is what the cross
does for you, a new born individual, Holy and acceptable to God?
If the answer is no, no wonder you believe as you do, and continually find fruit so difficult and
something far off. But God has the answer, repent, turn, confess, humble yourself and He will
life you up, like never before, Praise the Lord for His cleansing through the Holy Spirit, Amen.
When someone has something to lose, sinful behaviour they refuse to surrender,
any accusation to those who bring light will be used.
Never accept the word of a sinner who justifies their sin, like it is a badge of honour.
What sin are they talking about? Murder, theft, lying, adultery, coveting, miss-representing others,
dishonouring their parents. Or is it hurt covering vengeance, hatred, bitterness, unforgiveness.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
matt 5
The impure will not see anything or know anything.
5 For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person--such a man is an idolater--
has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Eph 5
Purity is part of the start of our walk. But I suspect some have never actually become pure at
all, or even believed God desires this in them.
So this is my challenge to those who believe God is ok with them abiding in sin, have you ever
really been purified, cleansed, made whole? Have you the faith to believe this is what the cross
does for you, a new born individual, Holy and acceptable to God?
If the answer is no, no wonder you believe as you do, and continually find fruit so difficult and
something far off. But God has the answer, repent, turn, confess, humble yourself and He will
life you up, like never before, Praise the Lord for His cleansing through the Holy Spirit, Amen.
I would agree that like a new born babe we start to grow in faith, but it takes a while, perhaps maybe years before we start to bear fruit.
Is love a fruit? Does it bear fruit?
1 John 3: 14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
If we do not love, we abide in death.
And what is the biblical definition of love?
1 John 3: 18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
I would agree that like a new born babe we start to grow in faith, but it takes a while, perhaps maybe years before we start to bear fruit.
Would you say the following would be instances of bearing fruit?
a. Sharing your testimony
b. The Holy Spirit using your changed life to draw someone to Jesus.
c. Telling someone about the Grace of God.
Does it take years to be able to start doing these things? Not necessarily. Only if your choices cause it to take years.
a
This is why I always speak of His power to change, I have to testify of this because it's the work He has done in me, and I will forever speak about how I feel a Christians main message should not be "we still sin", I will proclaim the POWER of Jesus to Change us, by His grace, through faith in Him He awakens our dead spirit and reconciles it to His, forever changing our very nature by restoring us to how we were created to be. Praise His glorious name!!! Making us truly whole in His glory. I will forever proclaim that no one, no matter how He draws them, can have this happen and not work. You will do so by nature, if you are not born again you can not please God, and when we are born again we now WANT to please Him by nature. That said we will also point ALL credit, honor, and praise we may get from the world directly to Him as a testament of this power, because outside of Him we would not do the things we now do. That's why He alone rightly gets all glory. Amen.
That has always been my main issue with this, was not so much "your wrong", but more just trying to share how that message being central all the time helped to keep me deceived into thinking I was saved when I wasn't. I agree with you, but for some reason trying to explain that the works have nothing to do at all with getting or staying saved, but if there are no works, and we should also be more clear about defining what a work is, then it should be warning bells for that person. It's not for me to judge you in this matter at all, or anyone else, this is a matter of you being truly reconciled to Him, when this is the case you know it, and any change in you is a work. The main point is you are now spiritually reconnected to Him and the Spirit of God now dwells in you. You are now capable of pleasing the Father, and I can only speak for myself, but the closer I get to Him the hotter that fire burns. I long to be pleasing to Him, for His glory. I want none ever. They have to understand that what Mac is talking about is not chains, it is again just the result of this re-connection.
Amen brother, and I testify the truth of this as one who has sat in church thinking I was "saved" because I repeated a prayer and was declared saved. But I was deceived and in the flesh still, but always heard "we will always sin", "you can be saved by the power of our almighty Creator and not change for 100 years", and all this stuff. Now this is where I qualify this so please read carefully, on a technical level these things are true, I am on a walk, in the process of being molded to look more like Him by His power in me. I do still sin, but now when I see my sin I am empowered to actual face it in truth and by His power start to change it.
This is why I always speak of His power to change, I have to testify of this because it's the work He has done in me, and I will forever speak about how I feel a Christians main message should not be "we still sin", I will proclaim the POWER of Jesus to Change us, by His grace, through faith in Him He awakens our dead spirit and reconciles it to His, forever changing our very nature by restoring us to how we were created to be. Praise His glorious name!!! Making us truly whole in His glory. I will forever proclaim that no one, no matter how He draws them, can have this happen and not work. You will do so by nature, if you are not born again you can not please God, and when we are born again we now WANT to please Him by nature. That said we will also point ALL credit, honor, and praise we may get from the world directly to Him as a testament of this power, because outside of Him we would not do the things we now do. That's why He alone rightly gets all glory. Amen.
That has always been my main issue with this, was not so much "your wrong", but more just trying to share how that message being central all the time helped to keep me deceived into thinking I was saved when I wasn't. I agree with you, but for some reason trying to explain that the works have nothing to do at all with getting or staying saved, but if there are no works, and we should also be more clear about defining what a work is, then it should be warning bells for that person. It's not for me to judge you in this matter at all, or anyone else, this is a matter of you being truly reconciled to Him, when this is the case you know it, and any change in you is a work. The main point is you are now spiritually reconnected to Him and the Spirit of God now dwells in you. You are now capable of pleasing the Father, and I can only speak for myself, but the closer I get to Him the hotter that fire burns. I long to be pleasing to Him, for His glory. I want none ever. They have to understand that what Mac is talking about is not chains, it is again just the result of this re-connection.