A NON-CHARISMATIC UNDERSTANDING OF TONGUES

[jordh24]

Everything we need to know is in the scripture.

Paul was lead by the Spirit

Acts 13:2
While they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them."

 

[crossnote]

It's a dangerous step to pit the Scriptures against the Author of Scripture and vice-versa.

 

[jordh24]

That promise is to the Apostles and it was fulfilled in their giving us the Scriptures an account of the meaning of Jesus' life, death and resurrection.

Besides you are using Scripture to argue against Scripture...not smart.

There are many things that we do that were told to the Apostles that we use and follow today. Communion for example. He told the apostles to do it to remember Him, yet we still do it to this day, Do we stop doing communion because it was asked of the apostles? No.

How am I using scripture to argue against scripture?

 

[jordh24]

That promise is to the Apostles and it was fulfilled in their giving us the Scriptures an account of the meaning of Jesus' life, death and resurrection.

Besides you are using Scripture to argue against Scripture...not smart.

Also, why did all of those in the upper room, numbering 120, speak in tongues if that promise was only to the apostles?

 

[crossnote]

How am I using scripture to argue against scripture?

When you use Scripture such as this...

John 14:26 says "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you."

The HOLY SPIRIT will do these thing, not the scripture. The scripture is VERY important but it CANNOT replace God's voice through the Holy Spirit.

You are pitting the Holy Scriptures against it's Author, the Holy Spirit. That's how we test the spirits...by Scripture.

 

[crossnote]

Also, why did all of those in the upper room, numbering 120, speak in tongues if that promise was only to the apostles?

I was speaking of the promise, "He will bring ALL things to your remembrance, whatever I have told you". in John 14 which you quoted.

 

[jordh24]

When you use Scripture such as this...

John 14:26 says "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you."

The HOLY SPIRIT will do these thing, not the scripture. The scripture is VERY important but it CANNOT replace God's voice through the Holy Spirit.

You are pitting the Holy Scriptures against it's Author, the Holy Spirit. That's how we test the spirits...by Scripture.

My apologies. i will clarify, if I may. What I am meaning is that we cannot solely lean on the scriptures for all direction, because it is inevitable that there will be some empty gaps. The Bible encompasses alot, but it is impossible to have all of life's answers in one book. As a result, when we do find ourselves in those situations where the Bible does not seem to have a clear indication on what we should do, we need to lean on the direction of the Holy Spirit.

 

[PennEd]

Are you trying to prove that tongues are demonic? Are you trying to prove that they are bad? What exactly are you arguing for because I don't know what you are trying to argue here?

No. I'm trying to prove that we must test the spirits. "Feelings" are not a proper test. Have you read the OP's 1st couple posts?

 

[crossnote]

My apologies. i will clarify, if I may. What I am meaning is that we cannot solely lean on the scriptures for all direction, because it is inevitable that there will be some empty gaps. The Bible encompasses alot, but it is impossible to have all of life's answers in one book. As a result, when we do find ourselves in those situations where the Bible does not seem to have a clear indication on what we should do, we need to lean on the direction of the Holy Spirit.

It may not spell out every detail, but it gives us a guiding principle for those type of decisions. For example, it doesn't tell me to marry Cathy or Beth but they had best be in the faith and I am to commit my ways unto Him continually.

 

[VCO]

There are two convents, one stopped and another began when Jesus died on the cross

NOT EXACTLY. GOD NEVER CHANGES, especially HIS PLAN OF SALVATION. Mal. 3:6

So if we can find just one man's testimony, that clearly tells us how GOD saved him, we will know how GOD saves everyone who is SAVED.

Romans 4:3-8 (ESV)
3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”
4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.
5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,
6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

Abraham BELIEVED GOD WOULD PROVIDE A MESSIAH to provide SALVATION for SIN, by understanding and seeing that GOD provided the Ram as a SUBSTITUTE for ISAAC.

THUS:

Old Testament Saints are those who believe GOD would Provide a Messiah.

New Testament Saints are those who believe GOD did Provide a Messiah.


Therefore it is the SAME FAITH THAT SAVES BOTH.


Now what do we have that it currently has TWO OF, yet it will BE ONE eventually.


John 10:16 (NASB)
16 "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

You see TWO FOLDS that will become ONE FLOCK at the RAPTURE. Old Testament Saints, and New Testament Saints, will become the ONE FLOCK. Now many do not know that the word CHURCH was not in the BIBLE AT ALL when it was first written. They substituted the word CHURCH for ASSEMBLY.

Matthew 16:18 (YLT)
18 `And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it;

The People he was talking to were the LAST OF THE OLD TESTAMENT SAINTS. Remember the Birthday of the Church is not until Pentecost after the ASCENSION.

Look it up, the GREEK WORD MEANT ASSEMBLY. He called us the same thing that HE called Old Testament Saints. Old Testament Assembly, and New Testament Assembly will become the ONE FLOCK at the RAPTURE. They did us a disservice by Changing the name to Church.

Move over and make room for the Old Test Assembly (JEWS) who believed GOD would provide a Messiah, on your Pews.

 

[VCO]

If we believe not, he abides faithful because he cannot deny himself. <-----this speaks multitudes

AND:

2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.


Therefore HE KNOWS EVERY DECISION we will make BEFORE TIME BEGAN.

One way that is possible is OMNIPRESENCE includes EVERY SECOND OF TIME AS WE KNOW IT.
He is OMNIPRESENT at every genuine Conversion throughout TIME as we know it.

Luke 1:37 (NIV)
37 For nothing is impossible with God."

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If they SEE God is that not a sign? Just a different kind of sign? People believe that the Word is living, and that it will speak to them, is that not a sign? We have signs all around us.

So I guess your like the rest of your group and Think I can not see God?

The people asked Jesus for a sign, Jesus said a wicked generation seeks after a sign and non will be given to it EXCEPT the sign of Jonah.

I think we fit that generation don’t you?

If a church rejects it how can it work? It cannot work if people flat out reject the idea of these signs and tongues. The Holy Spirit works in all churchs. But I would argue that some other churches have seen visions and mine has not, why is God selecting that one church to give visions to? Different churches needed different methods. God is not a one size fits all, how could he be when the Church is worldwise and spreads over generations?

The HS does not work that way man, He comes into people. And they DO what he wants them to do. It comes naturally. The disciples did not learn that gift. He came into them, and they just started talking. Like they spoke those languages all their lives And there was a purpose.

Face it, If God wanted a person from all churches to speak in tongues, it would happen. There is no and ifs or buts about it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If a pastor says it is from God, we should take his word for it unless God speaks to us telling us otherwise.

Oh?So all pastors are right. And we should listen to them no matter what?

Thats called following men, and not following God my friend. And we were warned about that.

Thats dangerous man.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

In the Old Testament people were saved under the old covenant through the sacrifice of pure animals. In the new covenant Jesus was the pure being that was sacrificed.

So the OT people were saved by works. By the blood of bulls and goats. Which the author of Hebrews said NEVER TOOK AWAY SIN?

No my friend, that is not how they were saved. You already have an issue with the gospel.

God has not changed, the method of how someone attains the clearing of their sins has changed between convanents. And the Holy Spirit under the new convanent has made it so that God lives within us.

Um No. God has not changed, nor has the gospel. The sacrifice and bulls and goats NEVER took away sin.

It LOOKED forward to the one true sacrifice who WOULD take away sin. Jesus paid for their sin also. He LOOKED over their sin based on his knowledge of what Christ would do.

What was impossible because sin debt had NOT YET BEEN PAID was the full indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Kavik]

But the word Paul uses is the Greek word γλώσσες which means Tongues.
The Greek word that looks similar to γλώσσες is γλώσσα.

Yes, similar in appearance but very different in translation and meaning.

ΠΡΟΣ ΚΟΡΙΝΘΙΟΥΣ Α΄ 13:1 Greek NT: Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550
Ἐὰν ταῖς γλώσσαις τῶν ἀνθρώπων λαλῶ καὶ τῶν ἀγγέλων ἀγάπην δὲ μὴ ἔχω γέγονα χαλκὸς ἠχῶν ἢ κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

This verse ^ is very clear which form is being used: γλώσσες which means Tongues.

No clue where you're getting this γλώσσες from.

There is only one word in Greek; γλώσσα. It's a first declension feminine noun and refers to either the physical organ in the mouth, or language (it can also refer to the mouthpiece of certain musical instruments).

The form you point out in your examples, γλώσσαις, is the dative plural form of the very same noun γλώσσα. The Greek Dative also corresponds to the Instrumental case in languages that decline for it; thus in this case, the form γλώσσαις means simply "with/by means of languages". Nothing more, nothing less.

There is no separate word "γλώσσες".

The -ες ending is nominative plural marker for a third declension noun. The nominative singular would need to end in -s, so it would need to derive from a hypothetical word *γλώσς, or perhaps *γλώς. There is no such word in Greek; it's γλώσσα.

 

[Kavik]

Also, why did all of those in the upper room, numbering 120, speak in tongues if that promise was only to the apostles?

It was only the 12. Acts 2 where it mentions they were all of one accord; it refers to the ending of Acts 1 where Matthew is chosen to replace Judas; thus the 12 were again "together and of one accord". Further up in Acts 1, when Jesus is speaking about the coming of the HS, it';s to the 12, not the 120.

In Acts 2, Peter stands up with the other 11, not the other 119.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

But does that mean that we just stick our head in the sand and wait for Jesus to come back? If Jesus comes back and we simply stick our head in the sand he will wonder what we are doing, especially with the parable that was told about the man who hid his coin and did nothing with it. We are called to help others find Jesus, if we do not seek Jesus we will only fall backwards. We need to find out when God is speaking when other forces are speaking to us. Otherwise we will never truly be able to follow God's direction.

Who said we stick our heads in the sand?

is this what you people are taught? (Alot of stuff is making sense now) that we do?

You need to stop listening to what people are teaching you and look at reality man, Go look at all the churches who are out working, doing Gods will. Being used mightily by God, Not only seeing growth in Gods churhc, but seeing people have changed lives, and they to, being equiped go out and continue what the churhc has been doing all along. Go into the world and make disciples of all nations.

People are going out into Satans domain all the time, and The gates of hell has not stopped them

By the way, this is now multiple timed you did not directly answer my post. Is there a reason? Are you denying that those things happen? It is called setting a precidence, if it can happen, it usually DOES happen. So we need more than just someone saying it is god for us to really know it was from God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There are two convents, one stopped and another began when Jesus died on the cross

How did people get saved before moses?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

My faith is in Jesus. But that is besides the point that is being argued. The point being argued is that we need to have faith in what God is telling us through the Spirit. If we do not listen to what the Spirit is telling us, which you and others seem to think we should do, not listen to what our Spirit is saying but rather ignore it altogether. Then we have missed a large point of our Christian walk. We are to walk in the direction that God directs us through the Spirit. Which we cannot do if we try to restrain the leading of the Spirit.

I know your new here friend, And I am trying to be respectfull to you.

But a small warning, Lieing about what others are saying does not help your cause, it did nto help those before you who did the same thing, and it will nto help people after you

Saying we SHOULD TEST THE SPIRIT as God demands, and not just LISTEN to something that CLAIMS to be the spirit. Is not the same as saying we should not listen to the spirit.

If you can not understand the difference and want to continue with this lie. You will not be very helpful to yourself. Or to your church.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Everything we need to know is in the scripture.

In case anyone doubts, Taken from the word of God itself..


2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.