A NON-CHARISMATIC UNDERSTANDING OF TONGUES

[eternally-gratefull]

I am not denying that it cannot happen without speaking in tongues, I have had similar experiences without tongues, I am just saying that God sometimes chooses to work in this way.

Why?

 

[UnderGrace]

Yes... We don't need another language to speak to God, I have never denied that. But we can use tongues through the Holy Spirit to edify our Spirit. It's like communion, we don't need it to go to heaven, but we use it to edify our Spirit.

Okay, you are speaking about ecstatic utterances then, not "glossa" in Corinthians

 

[obedienttogod]

btw..... it is francais ....not capitalized.

I cap things out of habit

 

[UnderGrace]

I cap things out of habit

Yes that happens.

Well with all your language pursuits I am sure you will one day wake up and realize that 'glossa" means language, no more and no less.

Happy Studying!!

 

[jordh24]

Why?

I would argue that sometimes some people need a different sign then others. Some people God giving them an idea in their head is enough others they may need more. One example of this is, there was a church service and a number of people were asked to come to the alter. One of which was a Jew. The preacher was asking him if he wanted to give his life to Jesus and the Jew rejected because he did not believe that Jesus was God. The Jew knew English as well as Yiddish, and the Jewish man was standing beside someone who was speaking in tongues. The Jewish man told the preacher the only way he would believe is if God gave him a super clear sign that Jesus was truly the Messiah. The person beside him all the sudden began speaking the Jewish man's native tongue and said Jesus who He says He is, and the Jewish man believed because of that sign, the man speaking in tongues did not speak Yiddish. So yes, sometimes God chooses to use tongues at times.

 

[jordh24]

Okay, you are speaking about ecstatic utterances then, not "glossa" in Corinthians

Just want to make it clear. You are going along the assumption that there are different types of tongues due to the original texts?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I would argue that sometimes some people need a different sign then others. Some people God giving them an idea in their head is enough others they may need more. One example of this is, there was a church service and a number of people were asked to come to the alter. One of which was a Jew. The preacher was asking him if he wanted to give his life to Jesus and the Jew rejected because he did not believe that Jesus was God. The Jew knew English as well as Yiddish, and the Jewish man was standing beside someone who was speaking in tongues. The Jewish man told the preacher the only way he would believe is if God gave him a super clear sign that Jesus was truly the Messiah. The person beside him all the sudden began speaking the Jewish man's native tongue and said Jesus who He says He is, and the Jewish man believed because of that sign, the man speaking in tongues did not speak Yiddish. So yes, sometimes God chooses to use tongues at times.

See this is where have a major problem

We are not to seek for signs, In fact Jesus said an evil and adulterous generations seeks after a sign.

I understand in Act signs were needed, Because God started somethign new. And he need to prove that new system was from him

But why do we need signs today?

 

[jordh24]

Okay, you are speaking about ecstatic utterances then, not "glossa" in Corinthians

If so, it seems from my understanding that the tongues described in Acts and Corinthians were similar but different at the same time. The tongues in Acts and Corinthians included both earthly and heavenly languages. Thus the word language from "glossa.' We can see this be the case in 1 Corinthians 13:1 where is says "Though I speak with the tongues of men and angels" Which indicates the languages(tongues) he was speaking was both heavenly and earthly languages.

 

[jordh24]

See this is where have a major problem

We are not to seek for signs, In fact Jesus said an evil and adulterous generations seeks after a sign.

I understand in Act signs were needed, Because God started somethign new. And he need to prove that new system was from him

But why do we need signs today?

Is God not the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow?

Malichi 3:6 "For I, the LORD, do not change..."

Psalm 102:27 "But You are the same, And Your years will not come to an end."

If we believe that God never changes, why would the signs he provides change?

 

[obedienttogod]

what kind of message does God send?

in my experience, warnings that what someone is doing, what someone is believing, what someone is incorrectly teaching others by adding God to it.

My Grandfather was very well known for his biblical knowledge and people loved how he preached.
Long story short:
Some people were traveling, and I think, they were gone for a few months and headed back home. But they stopped every Sunday to attend a church service wherever they had been at in their travels. One Sunday, it happened to be at my home church now, but this took place back when my Grandfather pastored it. They must have really liked it, because they made it home and told their own pastor about my Grandfather. So, we did not know them and never met them before and same from their point of view...we were strangers to one another. But their pastor got ahold of my Grandfather and set up a time when my Grandfather could go there and preach.

Like I said, we had no idea who anyone was, but my Grandfather tried to oblige at the request of sharing God's Word.

Anyways, during worship, all were praying in ENGLISH, and suddenly we just got quiet, praying in a whisper. And somewhere from within that building, a man spoke for no more than 20 seconds in Tongues. And a deep silence just overwhelmed everyone. The Holy Spirit instructed my Grandfather that he had the interpretation. I'll never forget, because when my Grandfather spoke, I loved it. He said, You are playing church, God has been made to be a fool. And that was it.

Couple weeks later, it was discovered the pastor had been with other women and was abusing young boys and then getting behind the pulpit and preaching how bad everyone else was.

That is what has been my intimate knowledge, of why God uses Tongues and Interpretation in correcting His Church.

 

[azamzimtoti]

I have an asthmatic understanding of tongues, I get coughing when the subject get "brought up"

 

[jordh24]

in my experience, warnings that what someone is doing, what someone is believing, what someone is incorrectly teaching others by adding God to it.

My Grandfather was very well known for his biblical knowledge and people loved how he preached.
Long story short:
Some people were traveling, and I think, they were gone for a few months and headed back home. But they stopped every Sunday to attend a church service wherever they had been at in their travels. One Sunday, it happened to be at my home church now, but this took place back when my Grandfather pastored it. They must have really liked it, because they made it home and told their own pastor about my Grandfather. So, we did not know them and never met them before and same from their point of view...we were strangers to one another. But their pastor got ahold of my Grandfather and set up a time when my Grandfather could go there and preach.

Like I said, we had no idea who anyone was, but my Grandfather tried to oblige at the request of sharing God's Word.

Anyways, during worship, all were praying in ENGLISH, and suddenly we just got quiet, praying in a whisper. And somewhere from within that building, a man spoke for no more than 20 seconds in Tongues. And a deep silence just overwhelmed everyone. The Holy Spirit instructed my Grandfather that he had the interpretation. I'll never forget, because when my Grandfather spoke, I loved it. He said, You are playing church, God has been made to be a fool. And that was it.

Couple weeks later, it was discovered the pastor had been with other women and was abusing young boys and then getting behind the pulpit and preaching how bad everyone else was.

That is what has been my intimate knowledge, of why God uses Tongues and Interpretation in correcting His Church.

You, my friend, nailed it.

 

[obedienttogod]

Yes that happens.

Well with all your language pursuits I am sure you will one day wake up and realize that 'glossa" means language, no more and no less.

Happy Studying!!

I do understand what glossia means:

But the word Paul uses is the Greek word γλώσσες which means Tongues.
The Greek word that looks similar to γλώσσες is γλώσσα.

Yes, similar in appearance but very different in translation and meaning.

ΠΡΟΣ ΚΟΡΙΝΘΙΟΥΣ Α΄ 13:1 Greek NT: Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550
Ἐὰν ταῖς γλώσσαις τῶν ἀνθρώπων λαλῶ καὶ τῶν ἀγγέλων ἀγάπην δὲ μὴ ἔχω γέγονα χαλκὸς ἠχῶν ἢ κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

This verse ^ is very clear which form is being used: γλώσσες which means Tongues.

 

[obedienttogod]

I do understand what glossia means:

But the word Paul uses is the Greek word γλώσσες which means Tongues.
The Greek word that looks similar to γλώσσες is γλώσσα.

Yes, similar in appearance but very different in translation and meaning.

ΠΡΟΣ ΚΟΡΙΝΘΙΟΥΣ Α΄ 13:1 Greek NT: Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550
Ἐὰν ταῖς γλώσσαις τῶν ἀνθρώπων λαλῶ καὶ τῶν ἀγγέλων ἀγάπην δὲ μὴ ἔχω γέγονα χαλκὸς ἠχῶν ἢ κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

This verse ^ is very clear which form is being used: γλώσσες which means Tongues.

In fact, EVERY GREEK TEXT USES THIS WORD I POINTED OUT:

Greek Texts
ΠΡΟΣ ΚΟΡΙΝΘΙΟΥΣ Α΄ 13:1 Greek NT: Nestle 1904
Ἐὰν ταῖς γλώσσαις τῶν ἀνθρώπων λαλῶ καὶ τῶν ἀγγέλων, ἀγάπην δὲ μὴ ἔχω, γέγονα χαλκὸς ἠχῶν ἢ κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον.

ΠΡΟΣ ΚΟΡΙΝΘΙΟΥΣ Α΄ 13:1 Greek NT: Westcott and Hort 1881
Ἐὰν ταῖς γλώσσαις τῶν ἀνθρώπων λαλῶ καὶ τῶν ἀγγέλων, ἀγάπην δὲ μὴ ἔχω, γέγονα χαλκὸς ἠχῶν ἢ κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον.

ΠΡΟΣ ΚΟΡΙΝΘΙΟΥΣ Α΄ 13:1 Greek NT: Westcott and Hort / [NA27 and UBS4 variants]
Ἐὰν ταῖς γλώσσαις τῶν ἀνθρώπων λαλῶ καὶ τῶν ἀγγέλων, ἀγάπην δὲ μὴ ἔχω, γέγονα χαλκὸς ἠχῶν ἢ κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον.

ΠΡΟΣ ΚΟΡΙΝΘΙΟΥΣ Α΄ 13:1 Greek NT: RP Byzantine Majority Text 2005
Ἐὰν ταῖς γλώσσαις τῶν ἀνθρώπων λαλῶ καὶ τῶν ἀγγέλων, ἀγάπην δὲ μὴ ἔχω, γέγονα χαλκὸς ἠχῶν ἢ κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον.

ΠΡΟΣ ΚΟΡΙΝΘΙΟΥΣ Α΄ 13:1 Greek NT: Greek Orthodox Church
Ἐὰν ταῖς γλώσσαις τῶν ἀνθρώπων λαλῶ καὶ τῶν ἀγγέλων, ἀγάπην δὲ μὴ ἔχω, γέγονα χαλκὸς ἠχῶν ἢ κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον.

ΠΡΟΣ ΚΟΡΙΝΘΙΟΥΣ Α΄ 13:1 Greek NT: Tischendorf 8th Edition
Ἐὰν ταῖς γλώσσαις τῶν ἀνθρώπων λαλῶ καὶ τῶν ἀγγέλων, ἀγάπην δὲ μὴ ἔχω, γέγονα χαλκὸς ἠχῶν ἢ κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον.

ΠΡΟΣ ΚΟΡΙΝΘΙΟΥΣ Α΄ 13:1 Greek NT: Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894
Ἐὰν ταῖς γλώσσαις τῶν ἀνθρώπων λαλῶ καὶ τῶν ἀγγέλων, ἀγάπην δὲ μὴ ἔχω, γέγονα χαλκὸς ἠχῶν ἢ κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον.

ΠΡΟΣ ΚΟΡΙΝΘΙΟΥΣ Α΄ 13:1 Greek NT: Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550
Ἐὰν ταῖς γλώσσαις τῶν ἀνθρώπων λαλῶ καὶ τῶν ἀγγέλων ἀγάπην δὲ μὴ ἔχω γέγονα χαλκὸς ἠχῶν ἢ κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

1 Corinthians 13:1 Greek Study Bible (Apostolic / Interlinear)
Ἐὰν ταῖς γλώσσαις τῶν ἀνθρώπων λαλῶ καὶ τῶν ἀγγέλων, ἀγάπην δὲ μὴ ἔχω, γέγονα χαλκὸς ἠχῶν ἢκύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον.

 

[VCO]

I love it, Brother!!

Excellent verse choice.


I do have a question, and it relates to the post of mine you quoted and answered


in 107 A.D. a man named Polycarp, who most denominations today preach was a Disciple of the last Apostle John the Beloved. There are numerous examples that show Polycarp in the same vicinity as John on multiple occasions (like we have the original Disciples in the same vicinity with Yeshua through His Ministry before His Death-Burial-Resurrection).

Anyway, Polycarp, a renowned known Disciple of the Beloved Disciple/Apostle John, instructed his own Disciples, that the Gifts of the Holy Spirit had not ceased and were alive and will continue to be alive until Yeshua returns (that which is PERFECT).


Here are some examples of his (Polycarp) writings and from one of his own Disciples:


107 A.D.
Polycarp (A.D. 70-155), who was himself a disciple of the Apostle John, wrote: "in like manner do we also hear many brethren in the Church who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light for the general benefit the hidden things of men and declare the mysteries of God, whom also the apostle terms 'spiritual', they being spiritual because they partake of the Spirit".

Apostle John admonished Polycarp to pray so that he might "be wanting in nothing, and... abound in every gift."


Here are some effects to this later on:

110 A.D.
Justin Martyr wrote, "For the prophetical gifts remain with us, even to the present time... Now it is possible to see amongst us women and men who possess gifts of the Spirit of God."

150 A.D.
Irenaeus (A.D. 115 to 202) a pupil of Polycarp (Disciple of the Apostle John) wrote: who have received the Spirit of God, and who through the Spirit of God do speak in all languages, as he used [h]imself also to speak. In like manner we do also hear many brethren in the Church, who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages...





The list continues with example after example the lineage of the Apostle John (Discipes) were believing ALL GIFTS WERE ACTIVE, NONE HAD CEASED, AND THEY SHOULD CONTINUE TILL CHRIST RETURNS.



If these writings are FACTUAL, then anyone believing the Gifts are no longer active, are reading into scripture and creating their own interpretations!!

Yes, I remember Polycarp the Martyr, from Fox's Book of Martyr's. Irenaeus, I do not remember. So I had to read about him, and I found an interesting quote by HIM. It appears it lasted as long as apostles generation were still alive, from this Catholic book about St. Irenaeus, dated approximately 180. Irenaeus did not die until 202, so that means he was still alive and already a Catholic Saint when this book was Published.

Here is the quote: “We speak wisdom among them that are perfect,” terming those persons “perfect” who have received the Spirit of God, and who through the Spirit of God do speak in all languages, as he used Himself also to speak. In like manner we do also hear many brethren in the Church, who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light for the general benefit the hidden things of men, . . ."

https://unsettledchristianity.com/irenaeus-on-the-spiritual-need-of-speaking-in-tongues/


Notice in the Pink, it rules out any ecstatic utterances. HOWEVER IT SAYS Irenaeus USED to speak in TONGUES. Implying in his younger years he used to speak in TONGUES, and that he could no longer do it. So then the Cessation may have happened around 130. So the NEWS of other Christians could have been way later, and The Cathololic writer HAS NO FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE OF TONGUES CONTINUING.

 

[jordh24]

In fact, EVERY GREEK TEXT USES THIS WORD I POINTED OUT:

Greek Texts
ΠΡΟΣ ΚΟΡΙΝΘΙΟΥΣ Α΄ 13:1 Greek NT: Nestle 1904
Ἐὰν ταῖς γλώσσαις τῶν ἀνθρώπων λαλῶ καὶ τῶν ἀγγέλων, ἀγάπην δὲ μὴ ἔχω, γέγονα χαλκὸς ἠχῶν ἢ κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον.

ΠΡΟΣ ΚΟΡΙΝΘΙΟΥΣ Α΄ 13:1 Greek NT: Westcott and Hort 1881
Ἐὰν ταῖς γλώσσαις τῶν ἀνθρώπων λαλῶ καὶ τῶν ἀγγέλων, ἀγάπην δὲ μὴ ἔχω, γέγονα χαλκὸς ἠχῶν ἢ κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον.

ΠΡΟΣ ΚΟΡΙΝΘΙΟΥΣ Α΄ 13:1 Greek NT: Westcott and Hort / [NA27 and UBS4 variants]
Ἐὰν ταῖς γλώσσαις τῶν ἀνθρώπων λαλῶ καὶ τῶν ἀγγέλων, ἀγάπην δὲ μὴ ἔχω, γέγονα χαλκὸς ἠχῶν ἢ κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον.

ΠΡΟΣ ΚΟΡΙΝΘΙΟΥΣ Α΄ 13:1 Greek NT: RP Byzantine Majority Text 2005
Ἐὰν ταῖς γλώσσαις τῶν ἀνθρώπων λαλῶ καὶ τῶν ἀγγέλων, ἀγάπην δὲ μὴ ἔχω, γέγονα χαλκὸς ἠχῶν ἢ κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον.

ΠΡΟΣ ΚΟΡΙΝΘΙΟΥΣ Α΄ 13:1 Greek NT: Greek Orthodox Church
Ἐὰν ταῖς γλώσσαις τῶν ἀνθρώπων λαλῶ καὶ τῶν ἀγγέλων, ἀγάπην δὲ μὴ ἔχω, γέγονα χαλκὸς ἠχῶν ἢ κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον.

ΠΡΟΣ ΚΟΡΙΝΘΙΟΥΣ Α΄ 13:1 Greek NT: Tischendorf 8th Edition
Ἐὰν ταῖς γλώσσαις τῶν ἀνθρώπων λαλῶ καὶ τῶν ἀγγέλων, ἀγάπην δὲ μὴ ἔχω, γέγονα χαλκὸς ἠχῶν ἢ κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον.

ΠΡΟΣ ΚΟΡΙΝΘΙΟΥΣ Α΄ 13:1 Greek NT: Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894
Ἐὰν ταῖς γλώσσαις τῶν ἀνθρώπων λαλῶ καὶ τῶν ἀγγέλων, ἀγάπην δὲ μὴ ἔχω, γέγονα χαλκὸς ἠχῶν ἢ κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον.

ΠΡΟΣ ΚΟΡΙΝΘΙΟΥΣ Α΄ 13:1 Greek NT: Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550
Ἐὰν ταῖς γλώσσαις τῶν ἀνθρώπων λαλῶ καὶ τῶν ἀγγέλων ἀγάπην δὲ μὴ ἔχω γέγονα χαλκὸς ἠχῶν ἢ κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

1 Corinthians 13:1 Greek Study Bible (Apostolic / Interlinear)
Ἐὰν ταῖς γλώσσαις τῶν ἀνθρώπων λαλῶ καὶ τῶν ἀγγέλων, ἀγάπην δὲ μὴ ἔχω, γέγονα χαλκὸς ἠχῶν ἢκύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον.

So the orginal texts do use the word tongues?

 

[obedienttogod]

So the orginal texts do use the word tongues?

Yes, they do since the year 1550 from the first Greek translated bible, Tongues has always been used because Paul used that word.

It's those who believe Tongues have ceased that have wrongly applied language.

 

[PennEd]

I have witnessed it on a couple of different occasions. People will be praying, and someone will feel inclined to speak out in tongues and someone else in the congregation will receive the message from God that is the interpretation of the tongues. I have never interpreted because it is a spiritual gift and is not for everyone. You can tell that an interpretation is coming because you can feel it in your Spirit.

And what did the interpreters tell you?

 

[PennEd]

Yes... We don't need another language to speak to God, I have never denied that. But we can use tongues through the Holy Spirit to edify our Spirit. It's like communion, we don't need it to go to heaven, but we use it to edify our Spirit.

But edification comes from the Word. That's why we have the living, God breathed Word.

 

[jordh24]

And what did the interpreters tell you?

Quite similar to what obedienttogod has shared, often times it is warnings to the church or even to a particular person. In one service an interpretation was for a particular person. The interpretation said essentially said to stop wandering like the nation of Isreal and return to Him.