Been watching a lot about the quran.. Misled?

TheLearner · Apr 21, 2019

According to at-Tabari Muhammad believed that the end of the world was to occur 500 years after his coming:

"According to Hannad b. al-Sari and Abu Hisham al-Rifa'i- Abu Bakr b. 'Ayyash- Abu Hasin- Abu Salih- Abu Hurayrah: The Messenger of God said: When I was sent (to transmit the divine message), I and the Hour were like these two, pointing at his index and middle fingers." (Tabari, p. 176; emphasis ours, see also pp. 175-181)

Similar traditions are found in Sahih Muslim:

Book 41, Number 7044:

This hadith has been reported by Sahl b. Sa'd that he heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: I and the Last Hour are (close to each other) like this (and he, in order to explain it) pointed (by joining his) forefinger, (one) next to the thumb and the middle finger (together).

Book 41, Number 7046:

Shu'ba reported: I heard Qatada and Abu Tayyab narrating that both of them heard Anas as narrating that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: I and the Last Hour have been sent like this, and Shu'ba drew his forefinger and middle finger near each other while narrating it.

Book 41, Number 7049:

Anas reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: I and the Last Hour have been sent like this and (he while doing it) joined the forefinger with the middle finger.

At-Tabari comments on the meaning of the Hour being as close as Muhammad's index and middle fingers:

"Thus, (the evidence permitting) a conclusion is as follows: The beginning of the day is the rise of the dawn, and its end is the setting of the sun. Further, the reported tradition on the authority of the Prophet is sound. As we have mentioned earlier, he said after having prayed the afternoon prayer: What remains of this world as compared to what has passed of it is just like what remains of this day as compared to what has passed of it. He also said: When I was sent, I and the Hour were like these two- holding index finger and middle finger together; I preceded it to the same extent as this one- meaning the middle finger- preceded that one- meaning the index finger. Further, the extent (of time) between the mean time of the afternoon prayer- that is, when the shadow of everything is twice its size, according to the best assumption ('ala al-taharri)- (to sunset) is the extent of time of one-half of one-seventh of the day, give or take a little. Likewise, the excess of the length of the middle finger over the index finger is something about that or close to it. There is also a sound tradition on the authority of the Messenger of God, as I was told by Ahmad b. 'Abd al-Rahman b. Wahb- his paternal uncle 'Abd-allah b. Wahb- Mu'awiyah b. Salih- 'Abd al-Rahman b. Jubayr b. Nufayr- his father Jubayr b. Nufayr- the companion of the Prophet, Abu Tha'labah al-Khushani: The Messenger of God said: Indeed, God will not make this nation incapable of (lasting) half a day- referring to the day of a thousand years.
"All these facts taken together make it clear that of the two statements I have mentioned concerning the total extent of time, the one from Ibn Abbas, and the other from Ka'b, the one more likely to be correct in accordance with the information coming from the Messenger of God is that of Ibn 'Abbas transmitted here by us on his authority: The world is one of the weeks of the other world - seven thousand years.
"Consequently, because this is so and the report on the authority of the Messenger of God is sound- namely, that he reported that what remained of the time of this world during his lifetime was half a day, or five hundred years, since five hundred years are half a day of the days, of which one is a thousand years- the conclusion is that the time of this world that had elapsed to the moment of the Prophet's statement corresponds to what we have transmitted on the authority of Abu Tha'labah al-Khushani from the Prophet, and is 6,500 years or approximately 6,500 years. God knows best!" (Tabari, pp. 182-183, bold emphasis ours)

Hence, according to these traditions Muhammad believed that not only was the world less than 7,000 years old but it was to end on the seventh day, or seven thousand years from the time it was created.

Accordingly, the world should have ended sometime between 1070-1132 AD, approximately 500 years after the birth and death of Muhammad. This is based on the fact that according to at-Tabari and others, the advent of Muhammad took place approximately 6,500 years from the time of creation. This is clearly a false prophecy.

TheLearner · Apr 21, 2019

Yet this date contradicts the one approximated by Abu Dawood in his Sunan. There, we saw that Antichrist was to appear seven months after the conquest of Constantinople, an event that took place in 1453 AD. This being the case, how could Muhammad have claimed elsewhere that the world was to end 500 years after his own birth and death? To make matters worse, the Islamic traditions claim that Antichrist was actually present during Muhammad's lifetime. In fact, according to the traditions Antichrist was a man named Ibn Saiyad:

Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 2, Book 23, Number 437:

Narrated Ibn 'Umar:
'Umar set out along with the Prophet (p.b.u.h) with a group of people to Ibn Saiyad till they saw him playing with the boys near the hillocks of Bani Mughala. Ibn Saiyad at that time was nearing his puberty and did not notice (us) until the Prophet stroked him with his hand and said to him, "Do you testify that I am Allah's Apostle?" Ibn Saiyad looked at him and said, "I testify that you are the Messenger of illiterates." Then Ibn Saiyad asked the Prophet (p.b.u.h), "Do you testify that I am Allah's Apostle?" The Prophet (p.b.u.h) refuted it and said, "I believe in Allah and His Apostles." Then he said (to Ibn Saiyad), "What do you think?" Ibn Saiyad answered, "True people and liars visit me." The Prophet said, "You have been confused as to this matter." Then the Prophet said to him, "I have kept something (in my mind) for you, (can you tell me that?)" Ibn Saiyad said, "It is Al-Dukh (the smoke)." (2) The Prophet said, "Let you be in ignominy. You cannot cross your limits." On that 'Umar, said, "O Allah's Apostle! Allow me to chop his head off." The Prophet (p.b.u.h) said, "If he is he (i.e. Dajjal), then you cannot over-power him, and if he is not, then there is no use of murdering him." (Ibn 'Umar added): Later on Allah's Apostle (p.b.u.h) once again went along with Ubai bin Ka'b to the date-palm trees (garden) where Ibn Saiyad was staying. The Prophet (p.b.u.h) wanted to hear something from Ibn Saiyad before Ibn Saiyad could see him, and the Prophet (p.b.u.h) saw him lying covered with a sheet and from where his murmurs were heard. Ibn Saiyad's mother saw Allah's Apostle while he was hiding himself behind the trunks of the date-palm trees. She addressed Ibn Saiyad, "O Saf! (and this was the name of Ibn Saiyad) Here is Muhammad." And with that Ibn Saiyad got up. The Prophet said, "Had this woman left him (Had she not disturbed him), then Ibn Saiyad would have revealed the reality of his case."

The traditions go on to positively identify Ibn Saiyad as Antichrist:

Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 92, Number 453:

Narrated Muhammad bin Al-Munkadir:
I saw Jabir bin 'Abdullah swearing by Allah that Ibn Sayyad was the Dajjal. I said to Jabir, "How can you swear by Allah?" Jabir said, "I have heard 'Umar swearing by Allah regarding this matter in the presence of the Prophet and the Prophet did not disapprove of it."

Sunan Abu Dawood, Book 37, Number 4317:

Narrated Jabir ibn Abdullah:
Muhammad ibn al-Munkadir told that he saw Jabir ibn Abdullah swearing by Allah that Ibn as-Sa'id was the Dajjal (Antichrist). I expressed my surprise by saying: You swear by Allah! He said: I heard Umar swearing to that in the presence of the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him), but the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) did not make any objection to it.

Yet these traditions contradict the following traditions where Antichrist is described as being one eyed and as being locked up in chains:

Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 55, Number 553:

Narrated Ibn Umar:
Once Allah's Apostle stood amongst the people, glorified and praised Allah as He deserved and then mentioned the Dajjal saying, "I warn you against him (i.e. the Dajjal) and there was no prophet but warned his nation against him. No doubt, Noah warned his nation against him but I tell you about him something of which no prophet told his nation before me. You should know that he is one-eyed, and Allah is not one-eyed."

Sunan Abu Dawood, Book 37, Number 4306:

Narrated Ubadah ibn as-Samit: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: I have told you so much about the Dajjal (Antichrist) that I am afraid you may not understand. The Antichrist is short, hen-toed, woolly-haired, one-eyed, an eye-sightless, and neither protruding nor deep-seated. If you are confused about him, know that your Lord is not one-eyed.

Sunan Abu Dawood, Book 37, Number 4311:

Narrated Fatimah, daughter of Qays:
The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) once delayed the congregational night prayer.
He came out and said: The talk of Tamim ad-Dari detained me. He transmitted it to me from a man who was of the islands of the sea. All of a sudden he found a woman who was trailing her hair. He asked: Who are you?
She said: I am the Jassasah. Go to that castle. So I came to it and found a man who was trailing his hair, chained in iron collars, and leaping between Heaven and Earth.
I asked: Who are you? He replied: I am the Dajjal (Antichrist). Has the Prophet of the unlettered people come forth now? I replied: Yes. He said: Have they obeyed him or disobeyed him? I said: No, they have obeyed him. He said: That is better for them.

Someone might interject here and claim that the traditions make mention of 30 Antichrists to come into the world:

Sunan Abu Dawood, Book 37, Number 4319:

Narrated Abu Hurayrah:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: The Last Hour will not come before there come forth thirty Dajjals (fraudulents), everyone presuming himself that he is an apostle of Allah. (see also Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 88, Number 237)

This implies that Ibn Saiyad was just one of the thirty antichrists, and not THE Antichrist that was to come right before the end of the world.

obedienttogod · Apr 21, 2019

Sophrosyne said:

I have some very dear and close friends who are not just of the Muslim faith, but they are from Muslim nations that eventually relocated to the United States. We get together and discuss scriptures. I learn as much as my friends do. The Muslim faith, the Hebrew/Jewish/Judaism faith, and the Christian faith ALL STEM FROM ABRAHAM.

And what is ironic about that we ALL stem from Abraham, is the Quran from beginning to Mohammed, is very much like beginning to Yeshua in the Hebrew Torah and Christian Old Testament. All claim we come from ONE MAN, named Adam (that actually blew me away to know the Muslim believed in God's Creation. Abraham had a High Priest named, Melchizedek (who was Yeshua (Jesus) before the world knew Him as Yeshua). Melchizedek was the king of Salem (which means king of PEACE). Ironically, the Muslims from Abraham call their God, the God of Peace.

There really are many similarities with all 3 faiths. But they change for the Muslim at Mohammed. They change for the Jew and Christian at Yeshua. What is interesting, Abraham taught the Muslim and Jew to view God as ONE PERSON, where the Christian is split on that view.

Mohammed brought war and taught how to control women and to put man on a very high plateau.
Yeshua brought Salvation and rather trying to split humanity, He created a way we ALL could be of ONE FAITH, ONE BELIEF, ONE MIND, ONE PURPOSE, ONE LORD, ONE GOD, the BRIDE of Yeshua!!

Some how, the Muslim view became dying in the act of killing the enemy equals eternal life.

Yeshua taught us to sacrifice, even if leads to losing your life in order for others to have a chance at Salvation equals to how someone truly loves his neighbor and brother/sister.

I am praying for you, Brother!!
May God open the doors to allow a deeper understanding, and the importance of what Yeshua can mean to your own personal life!!

TheLearner · Apr 21, 2019

There are several problems with this assertion. First, none of the traditions claim that Ibn Saiyad is one of the thirty antichrists that were to appear. Rather, the traditions imply that he is THE Dajjal or Antichrist. Second, if we take either of the dates proposed by at-Tabari or Abu Dawood all thirty Dajjals needed to have appeared before either 1070-1132 or 1453 AD. Finally, according to the New Testament Muhammad is actually one of these Antichrists:

"Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour… Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist-he denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also." 1 John 2:18, 22-23

Since Muhammad denied that Jesus is God's Son he is therefore one of the many antichrists that was to come according to the apostle John.

As if the preceding weren't bad enough, other traditions have Muhammad predicting that the end was to come within the lifetime of his followers:

Sahih Muslim, Book 41, Number 7050:

'A'isha reported that when the desert Arabs came to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) they asked about the Last Hour as to when that would come. And he looked towards the youngest amongst them and said: If he lives he would not grow very old that he would find your Last Hour coming to you he would see you dying.

Sahih Muslim, Book 41, Number 7051:

Anas reported that a person asked Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as to when the Last Hour would come. He had in his presence a young boy of the Ansar who was called Mahammad. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: If this young boy lives, he may not grow very old till (he would see) the Last Hour coming to you.

Sahih Muslim, Book 41, Number 7052:

Anas b. Malik reported that a person asked Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him): When would the Last Hour come? Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) kept quiet for a while, then looked at a young boy in his presence belonging to the tribe of Azd Shanilwa and he said: If this boy lives he would not grow very old till the Last Hour would come to you. Anas said that this young boy was of our age during those days.

Sahih Muslim, Book 41, Number 7053:

Anas reported: A young boy of Mughira b. Shu'ba happened to pass by (the Holy Prophet) and he was of my age. Thereupon Allah's Apostle (may peace be apon him) said: If he lives long he would not grow very old till the Last Hour would come (to the old People of this generation).

Muhammad clearly said that the young boy wouldn't have grown very old before the Last Hour came upon the people. Now let us be generous and suppose that the young boy was ten and lived to be hundred and ten years old, implying that the Last Hour was to take place a hundred years after Muhammad made these statements. Yet, centuries have passed and the Last Hour still hasn't come upon us.

But wait, there is more! According to the narratives of al-Bukhari, Muhammad announced that everyone would be dead within a hundred years:

Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 3, Number 116:

Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:
Once the Prophet led us in the 'Isha' prayer during the last days of his life and after finishing it (the prayer) (with Taslim) he said: "Do you realize (the importance of) this night? Nobody present on the surface of the earth tonight will be living after the completion of one hundred years from this night."

Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 10, Number 539:

Narrated Abdullah:
"One night Allah's Apostle led us in the 'Isha' prayer and that is the one called Al-'Atma by the people. After the completion of the prayer, he faced us and said, ‘Do you know the importance of this night? Nobody present on the surface of the earth tonight will be living after one hundred years from this night.’" (See Hadith No. 575).

TheLearner · Apr 21, 2019

Nearly fourteen centuries have gone by and there continue to be human beings alive all around the earth! This particular hadith was so troubling that another narration tries to explain it away by arguing that Muhammad really meant that none of his generation would be alive in a hundred years:

Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 10, Number 575:

Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:
The Prophet prayed one of the 'lsha' prayer in his last days and after finishing it with Taslim, he stood up and said, "Do you realize (the importance of) this night? Nobody present on the surface of the earth tonight would be living after the completion of one hundred years from this night."
The people made a mistake in grasping the meaning of this statement of Allah's Apostle and they indulged in those things which are said about these narrators (i.e. some said that the Day of Resurrection will be established after 100 years etc.) But the Prophet said, "Nobody present on the surface of earth tonight would be living after the completion of 100 years from this night"; he meant, "When that century (people of that century) would pass away."

There are several points to note from this specific report. First, note the candid admission of the narrator that Muslims understood from Muhammad’s words that the world was going to end in a hundred years. This provides corroborating evidence that the plain meaning of Muhammad’s so-called prophecy was that the last day would occur within a hundred years.

Second, notice just how irrational this ad hoc explanation is. The hadith compiler really expects his readers to believe that what Muhammad meant was that no one of his generation would be alive within a hundred years when there is nothing amazing about such a claim. To say that one’s generation would all be dead within a hundred years doesn’t require supernatural knowledge. The only thing required to make such a claim is common sense since life expectancy was low in those days. Hardly anyone lived beyond the age of a hundred years. If it was supposed to be a statement ("prophecy") about the life expectancy of the people living around him, then it was trivial. What is the point?

Even though trivial, it would almost certainly be wrong. Muhammad said "on the surface of the earth" – that is a large place. Although centenarians are rare, they probably existed at all times. Even in the life of Muhammad there was at least one such person. Abu Afak is reported to have lived to the age of 120:

SARIYYAH OF SALIM IBN ‘UMAYR
Then occurred the sariyyah of Salim Ibn ‘Umayr al-‘Amri against Abu ‘Afak, the Jew, in Shawwal in the beginning of the twentieth month from the hijrah of the Apostle of Allah, may Allah bless him. Abu ‘Afak, was from Banu ‘Amr Ibn ‘Awf, and was an old man who had attained the age of one hundred and twenty years. He was a Jew, and used to instigate the people against the Apostle of Allah, may Allah bless him, and composed (satirical) verses. Salim Ibn ‘Umayr who was one of the great weepers and who had participated in Badr, said: I take a vow that I shall either kill Abu ‘Afak or die before him. He waited for an opportunity until a hot night came, and Abu ‘Afak slept in an open place. Salim Ibn ‘Umayr knew it, so he placed the sword on his liver and pressed it till it reached his bed. The enemy of Allah screamed and the people, who were his followers rushed to him, took him to his house and interred him. (Ibn Sa'ad's Kitab Al-Tabaqat Al-Kabir, English translation by S. Moinul Haq, M.A., PH.D assisted by H.K. Ghazanfar M.A. [Kitab Bhavan Exporters & Importers, 1784 Kalan Mahal, Daryaganj, New Delhi - 110 002 India), Volume II, p. 31; bold and underline emphasis ours)

Did Muhammad really want to say: in a hundred years from now, there will be no more people who are older than a hundred years? Again: what would be the point of such an announcement? What has that to do with the message of Islam?

Moreover, Muhammad introduced his announcement with these words: "Do you know the importance of this night?" For that main reason, the alternative interpretation supplied by the narrator makes little sense. After all, in what sense would the observation that a time will come when nobody will be older than a hundred years be important for Muslims or Islam? It is simply irrelevant, and irrelevant is the opposite of important.

On the other hand, the proclamation of the Day of Resurrection and Allah’s judgment of all people is an essential part of Islam. If it had been revealed to Muhammad in his prayer that the world would end in exactly one hundred years, such a revelation would mark this night without question as being very important.

Only this interpretation really makes sense of the statement. The problem is, however, that the only meaningful interpretation of it has the consequence that Muhammad made a false prophecy. Muslims have tried to avert this by putting instead an utterly trivial, irrelevant – and most probably still incorrect – statement into Muhammad’s mouth.

Finally, it must be kept in mind that imam al-Bukhari collected these traditions roughly 250 years after Muhammad’s migration to Medina (c. 622/623 AD), long after the time that Muhammad said the world was going to end. In light of this, it is not surprising that he or someone else would provide an explanation in order to avoid having to admit that Muhammad was a false prophet for falsely claiming that the Day of Resurrection would take place a hundred years after his time.

Therefore, no matter from what angle one looks at it we are still left with irreconcilable contradictions and false predictions.

CONCLUSION

We have examined both the Quran and the Islamic traditions and found that both sources contain false predictions. In light of the prophetic criteria given by God in Deuteronomy 18 we discover that Muhammad fails this test. This means that Muhammad is neither a true prophet nor is he the prophet like Moses.

In the service of our Great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, our risen Lord forever. Amen. Come Lord Jesus. We love you always.
"
https://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/false_prophecies.htm

https://www.google.com/search?sourc...0j0i10j0i22i30j33i22i29i30j33i160.kSmc9Ye2x6k

TheLearner · Apr 21, 2019

https://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/false_prophecies.htm
https://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Wood/deuteronomy_deductions.htm

THE DEUTERONOMY DEDUCTIONS:
Two Short, Sound, Simple Proofs that Muhammad Was a False Prophet

By David Wood

"But the prophet who speaks a word presumptuously in My name which I have
not commanded him to speak . . . that prophet shall die."
~GOD (Deuteronomy18:20)[1]
"I have fabricated things against God and have imputed to Him words which He has not spoken."
~MUHAMMAD (Al-Tabari 6:111)[2]

Muhammad claimed that Jewish and Christian scriptures had predicted his coming (see, e.g., Qur’an 7:157). This has led Muslim apologists to comb the Old and New Testaments in search of passages that refer to their prophet. While all biblical evidence offered by Muslims in support of their prophet appears horribly strained to non-Muslims (provided the latter read the passages in context) and has been thoroughly refuted time and again, it is still common to hear Muslims claim that the Bible speaks about Muhammad.

The most popular "prophecy" about Muhammad is found in Deuteronomy 18. It is quite ironic, then, to learn that, according to Deuteronomy 18, Muhammad can’t possibly be a prophet. As we will see, this puts Muslims in an awkward position, and helps show the lengths to which they will go in their efforts to defend their prophet.

The purpose of this essay is to prove, based on Muslim claims (including their appeal to Deuteronomy 18), that Muhammad was a false prophet. I will begin by presenting two arguments against the prophethood of Muhammad, and I will follow this by carefully defending the arguments. Once I have shown that the arguments are sound, I will briefly discuss the options available to Muslims who want to reject the obvious conclusion.

I. THE DEUTERONOMY DEDUCTIONS

There are two elements to look for when examining deductive arguments: valid logic and true premises. To say that a deductive argument is valid is to say that, due to the logical form, true premises will always lead to a true conclusion. The most basic argument form is the syllogism, and the most basic valid form of the syllogism is Modus Ponens.[3]The logical form of the following arguments is Modus Ponens; thus, they are logically valid:

Argument A—false gods and false prophets

A1. If a person speaks in the names of false gods, that person is a false prophet.
A2. Muhammad spoke in the names of false gods.
——————————————————
A3. Therefore, Muhammad was a false prophet.

Argument B—false revelations and false prophets

B1. If a person delivers a revelation that doesn’t come from God, that person is a false prophet.
B2. Muhammad delivered a revelation that didn’t come from God.
——————————————————
B3. Therefore, Muhammad was a false prophet.

Since the logic of both arguments is valid, true premises will always lead to a true conclusion. Hence, if the premises of these arguments are true, Muhammad was a false prophet. Let us turn, then, to a careful discussion of our premises.

II. PREMISES A1 AND B1 DEFENDED

A1 and B1 seem intuitively obvious. That is, it seems clear that if a person speaks in the names of false gods or delivers revelations that don’t come from God, the person cannot be a true prophet. Nevertheless, by appealing to the Bible to bolster their belief in Muhammad, Muslims have inadvertently granted that A1 and B1 are true.

Deuteronomy 18 serves as the foundation of Islam’s "Argument from Biblical Prophecy," used by generations of Muslims to prove that Muhammad was a true prophet. Indeed, the popular Brief Illustrated Guide to Understanding Islam uses Deuteronomy 18 as its primary evidence that the Bible speaks of Muhammad. Author I. A. Ibrahim says,

The Biblical prophecies on the advent of the Prophet Muhammad are evidence of the truth of Islam for people who believe in the Bible.
In Deuteronomy 18, Moses stated that God told him: "I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account." (Deuteronomy 18: 18-19)[4]

The book goes on to argue that Muhammad fulfilled this prophecy in numerous ways. While such claims have been refuted ad nauseum,[5] I will simply note that Muslims have here granted that Deuteronomy 18:18-19 is inspired by God (since they regard it as a miraculous prophecy). Surely, then, we can’t ignore the next verse, where God says:

"But the prophet who speaks a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die." (Deuteronomy 18:20)

Here we have two criteria for spotting a false prophet: (1) delivering a revelation which God has not "commanded him to speak," and (2) speaking "in the name of other gods." Since Muslims who appeal to so-called biblical prophecies of Muhammad have given this passage their stamp of approval, they cannot deny the truth of A1 and B1. To sum up, Muslims have appealed to a passage in Deuteronomy 18, and that passage entails premises A1 and B1. Thus, according to Muslim claims, the first premise of each of the Deuteronomy Deductions is true.

TheLearner · Apr 21, 2019

"I have fabricated things against God and have imputed to Him words which He has not spoken."
~MUHAMMAD (Al-Tabari 6:111

TheLearner · Apr 21, 2019

stonesoffire said:

I never had any doubt that Jesus was God in flesh, but the information about the Memra of the Jews cinched it for me. And I used it in another forum with discussion with one who didn't believe He was God. Imrah is the hebrew word for Word of the Lord. He was then the Memra of God...and He manifested to them at times as the angel of the Lord.

Google it if you want to know more or search for Memra. Is too much for a post.

Not only this, but He is the God of Israel and in one instance when Moses ascended the mountain to speak with God, he went with men. He sprinkled blood of sacrifice upon all and then they started. The men stopped, conversed and ate with the God of Israel, and Moses went on to the mountain top alone with Father. That was Jesus before coming to earth as a babe. The Son.

The fig tree, one did touch on why Jesus cursed it. It's a symbol of Israel, and I agree with the other poster....He cursed it because Adam and Eve was thought to cover themselves after sinning with fig leaves. God changed this to skin. Blood was shed.

I truly hope you are not just wanting info from us but are an honest seeker. Not trying to be insulting but I know this happens.

Please give the links, thanks daniel

TheLearner · Apr 21, 2019

Adstar said:

http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2014/04/50-reasons-muhammad-was-not-prophet.html
https://irr.org/biblical-basis-of-doctrine-of-trinity
https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/bowman_robert/trinity/trinity.cfm

Melach · Apr 21, 2019

the two natures of Jesus

Jesus was 100% God 100% man.

that is why sometimes Jesus as the son of man does 'humanly' things and sometimes Jesus as the son of God predicts the future accurately (like st. peter's denial of Him) and is also doing things only God can do

that is what it is. the hypostatic union

dcontroversal · Apr 21, 2019

The difference between the two books.......and I would suggest you read and study the bible with genuine prayer to the ONE true GOD of heaven to have your eyes opened.....ditch the Quran, it will lead you some place you do not wish to be......

Quran <-----written by one man that worshiped the moon and was a pedophile

The Bible......

This book is not the work of one man and or a Shakespearian play.....It was written over a period of 1600 years by some 40 odd authors. It contains the verbiage of Kings, priests, slaves, Roman soldiers, tax collectors, fishermen, thieves, Pharaohs, the rich, the poor, lepers, demon possessed, angels, Satan and every other gambit of human background. It accurately predicts the rise and fall of world kingdoms and even names the leaders of some centuries or more in advance of their coming and exactly what they would do in their reign. It is full of overwhelming proof of divine influence and even speaks to modern flight, modern weapons, nuclear war, genetics, more than 4 dimensions, modern mathematics, medicine, astronomy, and has hundreds of prophetic utterances that have come to pass exactly as they were given without error.

Not only does it contain narrative, but it also contains allegory, metaphor, symbolic, prophecy, parables, poetry, acrostic psalms, prayers, and the words of a donkey while being written in four languages (some Chaldean in Daniel and Aramaic in Matthew) and containing language beyond human comprehension.

ABOVE all....It contains the divine words of the one true God concerning the human condition and the eternal destinies of men based upon said choices in this life I.E. a person's destiny is sealed based upon their acceptance and or rejection of the irrevocable gift of life found in Christ.

What I have said here does not even scratch the surface concerning the validity of the word and the value without price that can be placed upon the pages and pages of wisdom that can be gleaned from the truth found therein.....it is tragic that men devalue it to the mere works of men which states multitudes about their bias, reckless abandon and lack of honest evaluation

PennEd · Apr 21, 2019

Sophrosyne said:

You don't need to study the koran. You NEED the Gospel. You CANNOT understand the inspired Word of God, the Bible, until you are born again. There is NOTHING more important than that. So here it is. I pray the Lord gives you the faith to believe and act on it.

The Risen Christ, Faith’s Reality
15 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by [a]Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have [b]fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles.

Confess with your mouth Jesus IS Lord, believe in your heart that His Father raised Him from the grave, and you WILL be saved.

stonesoffire · Apr 21, 2019

TheLearner said:

Hi TheLearner

I can't tell where exactly I read about Memra now. At the time, I was on another forum and was reading from many websites. That's why I said google if you want to know more.

Also on that forum, we had those who were studying the Christian faith, just for the purpose of tearing it down. I'm a bit suspicious of anyone who knows they are being brainwashed yet remains in it.

But, imrah is H0565 in Strongs

Melach · Apr 21, 2019

what makes the bible so much superior to all other 'holy books' is that its written by many people for one. and second that its a book with a clear narrative and story from creation to eternity.

other books are just poetry with no clear story line and is just repeating the same thing over and over, like in the qu ran its repeating the same thing and its a complete mess, no chronological events.

you can read the bible its written by 40 authors inspired by God and the story starts in creation, and stops in eternity. it also contains prophecy, accurate ones, where many other 'holy books' dont contain any prophecy or signifanct.

if you ever read things like the eddas of ancient norse mythology they are clearly just mythological poetry and nothing to do with factual stories or narratives.

the reason people today like these other holybooks instead of the bible is because these other ones dont hold you accountable for your actions and call you out on your sins. these other ones are also very open to interpretation.

stonesoffire · Apr 21, 2019

8 And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.

9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:

10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.

11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

No link for this. I saw it in a study.

TheLearner · Apr 21, 2019

thanks all, read to here

dcontroversal · Apr 21, 2019

obedienttogod said:

I have some very dear and close friends who are not just of the Muslim faith, but they are from Muslim nations that eventually relocated to the United States. We get together and discuss scriptures. I learn as much as my friends do. The Muslim faith, the Hebrew/Jewish/Judaism faith, and the Christian faith ALL STEM FROM ABRAHAM.

And what is ironic about that we ALL stem from Abraham, is the Quran from beginning to Mohammed, is very much like beginning to Yeshua in the Hebrew Torah and Christian Old Testament. All claim we come from ONE MAN, named Adam (that actually blew me away to know the Muslim believed in God's Creation. Abraham had a High Priest named, Melchizedek (who was Yeshua (Jesus) before the world knew Him as Yeshua). Melchizedek was the king of Salem (which means king of PEACE). Ironically, the Muslims from Abraham call their God, the God of Peace.

There really are many similarities with all 3 faiths. But they change for the Muslim at Mohammed. They change for the Jew and Christian at Yeshua. What is interesting, Abraham taught the Muslim and Jew to view God as ONE PERSON, where the Christian is split on that view.

Mohammed brought war and taught how to control women and to put man on a very high plateau.
Yeshua brought Salvation and rather trying to split humanity, He created a way we ALL could be of ONE FAITH, ONE BELIEF, ONE MIND, ONE PURPOSE, ONE LORD, ONE GOD, the BRIDE of Yeshua!!

Some how, the Muslim view became dying in the act of killing the enemy equals eternal life.

Yeshua taught us to sacrifice, even if leads to losing your life in order for others to have a chance at Salvation equals to how someone truly loves his neighbor and brother/sister.

I am praying for you, Brother!!
May God open the doors to allow a deeper understanding, and the importance of what Yeshua can mean to your own personal life!!

The Muslim faith does not stem from Abraham....that is one of the most ignorant statements I have seen on this site............

JustEli · Apr 21, 2019

Some years ago while framing a house in portland, I was nearly knocked off the wall due to miscomunication.
There I was two stories up, feet still planted on the top plate, body at a 45 degree angle i.e. I was screwed.
My momentum was stopped, I physically felt something prevent me from falling.
Time stood still, I experienced everything and nothing all at once, the hand of the Lord
was upon me.
He touched me, I've heard his voice, I've known the presence of the holy Spirit countless times
in ways my feeble vocabulary fails to describe.

Don't let your stupid mind, and "intellect" prevent you from seeing the forest through the trees.

And don't take offense, for you see, Im far more stupiderer than you.

stonesoffire · Apr 21, 2019

dcontroversal said:

I think he means through Ishmael.

stonesoffire · Apr 21, 2019

JustEli said:

Some years ago while framing a house in portland, I was nearly knocked off the wall due to miscomunication.
There I was two stories up, feet still planted on the top plate, body at a 45 degree angle i.e. I was screwed.
My momentum was stopped, I physically felt something prevent me from falling.
Time stood still, I experienced everything and nothing all at once, the hand of the Lord
was upon me.
He touched me, I've heard his voice, I've known the presence of the holy Spirit countless times
in ways my feeble vocabulary fails to describe.

Don't let your stupid mind, and "intellect" prevent you from seeing the forest through the trees.

And don't take offense, for you see, Im far more stupiderer than you.

Yes! When we experience Him, not just read about, but actually come into contact with the Living God, there will never be a doubt again!

Been watching a lot about the quran.. Misled?

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