Is cleanliness next to godliness?

[Blik]

Hello Blik,

My point was/is, that no matter how clean you get on the outside by washing with water, it can never cover one's sins. Only the blood of Christ can do that. Cleanliness is not next to Godliness. But faith in the shed blood of Christ credits us with righteousness and reconciles us to God.

How God has designed our world is like a beautiful symphony. Christ is the theme, but there is much to our world to make for harmony. Cleanliness in all our world is part of the beautiful music.

 

[Blik]

Well it doesnt have to be a law. Why everyone seems to makes out the law in the OT to be something BAD is beyond me. Otherwise why would anyone bother with washing.

I so agree. If we thought and spoke using the language of Hebrew we wouldn't be using the word law at all. There is no one word to translate how the Hebrew language puts what we read as law. It includes the English word guidance as an example.

 

[Kim82]

We had whole pyjama drive at church for children who need to live in cars cos they have no home!

Is it a competition? The who can do more for the poor and brag about it competition?

You ignore where Jesus said, don't practice your righteousness before men and when give alms, let not your left hand know what your right hand is doing. Matthew 6:1-4

You ignore the words of Jesus, while you highlight the words of John Wesley. Matthew 15:9

Jesus says do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Luke 6:31

Bearing that in mind, it makes sense that we would keep ourselves and our surroundings clean.

If your neighbour does not dispose of their garbage properly, it will attract insects that will soon make their way over to your place.

If you don't take a bath, you will have an odor. When you turn up at church with an odor, everyone will be uncomfortable.

To be of help to others, you want to be as healthy as you possibly can. And in keeping clean, you can prevent certain illnesses.

So we all can agree, being clean and tidy makes sense.

But God says we must neither add nor take away from His word. Deuteronomy 4:2

While we all need to be physically clean, the cleanness that God emphasizes is cleanness from sin. Isaiah 1:16,18

If you have an issue with untidy people, then make a thread about that. But do it in such a way where you are not making a doctrine out of it.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Where does this phrase come from, is it from the Bible?

It may not be from the Bible, but it is quite accurate.

Physical and external cleanliness is important provided internal cleanliness is even more important.

And a day is coming when this earth and its atmosphere will be totally burned up with supernatural cleansing fire, so that there is a cleansed earth and heaven prepared to become the New Heavens and the New Earth.

 

[Lanolin]

It may not be from the Bible, but it is quite accurate.

Physical and external cleanliness is important provided internal cleanliness is even more important.

And a day is coming when this earth and its atmosphere will be totally burned up with supernatural cleansing fire, so that there is a cleansed earth and heaven prepared to become the New Heavens and the New Earth.

Ive heard charcoal is actually a really good cleansing agent.

 

[Lanolin]

Is it a competition? The who can do more for the poor and brag about it competition?

You ignore where Jesus said, don't practice your righteousness before men and when give alms, let not your left hand know what your right hand is doing. Matthew 6:1-4

You ignore the words of Jesus, while you highlight the words of John Wesley. Matthew 15:9

Jesus says do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Luke 6:31

Bearing that in mind, it makes sense that we would keep ourselves and our surroundings clean.

If your neighbour does not dispose of their garbage properly, it will attract insects that will soon make their way over to your place.

If you don't take a bath, you will have an odor. When you turn up at church with an odor, everyone will be uncomfortable.

To be of help to others, you want to be as healthy as you possibly can. And in keeping clean, you can prevent certain illnesses.

So we all can agree, being clean and tidy makes sense.

But God says we must neither add nor take away from His word. Deuteronomy 4:2

While we all need to be physically clean, the cleanness that God emphasizes is cleanness from sin. Isaiah 1:16,18

If you have an issue with untidy people, then make a thread about that. But do it in such a way where you are not making a doctrine out of it.

No actually it wasnt my idea to give pyjamas, so what arent we allowed mention what other people do when they just act on what God tells them to do. The children didnt know it was any of us perosnally giving them pyjamas. But thats what they needed.

I dont have any issue, you just looking at stuff thats not even there. Why would I be making a docrine out of stuff I just asking aquestiom? Sheesh. Am i not even allowed to do that here. Stop with your nonsense. I am not the one who first said cleanliness is next to godliness and was just asking WHERE IT CAME FROM.

 

[Lanolin]

Ok I did some research and found the sermon where wesley said this but it seems hes quoting a well known phrase except I dont really know who said it first

http://wesley.nnu.edu/john-wesley/the-sermons-of-john-wesley-1872-edition/sermon-88-on-dress/

The context he is putting on it is in terms of dress. But he also brings up an interesting point of whether christians dress differntly from non believers. Should we wear gold and jewellery and expensive clothing? When Paul advises us not to. So hes kind of turning it on its head.

I mean a christian can wear ripped up jeans if they want, and people actually pay a lot of money for ripped up jeans. You can buy them new at the shop and they are already ripped up and frayed. I suppose this might discocert Brother James when people tell these rich people to sit in the corner cos they look like they wearing rags, even if they are designer rags.

 

[Lanolin]

If thinking back to victorian times that wesley lived you should have seen the contraptions that rich women had to wear, like corsets and huge crinolines and fluff and frills. He must have got a bit crazy about how much was wasted on adorning oneself. Anyway...Jesus did observe the same thing with Pharisees with ther long robes. And with Paul it was women wearing costly jewellery and embroiderd hair.

Of course the rich people who could afford a change of outifit for breakfast lunch and tea are worlds apart from someone who only owns what they are wearing right now and its got holes all in it from wearing it everyday.

Some people actually pay others to caption paparazzi pics of celebs wearing different outfits. I once worked for a company that did this. They got workers to keyword photos of what the celeb was wearing and guess which designer it was. So if it was like a versace dress they had to caption it, and what colour it was and whther it was made of chiffon or whatever. I mean what a nutjob to do, and it was round the clock. who even cares...obviously some people do.

 

[Mii]

Physical cleanliness can hearken to spiritual cleanliness. It's a discipline issue as well as a luxury thing. Like if you know you are physically dirty, why? My experience has been that if the Lord is actively moving it's not very important but in the stillness...definitely a distraction.

I won't get too in depth into what it's like for me personally tonight but will post back tomorrow. I've engaged the law of the OT and I definitely think there is something to be said there.

My biggest issue is "tidiness" it's not so much that things are unclean as in unsanitary but I've had people say that an untidy room is a mark of a spiritual issue. These are people that I know from experience have a walk with the Lord so it always needles me a little bit. It's a hard thing for me to be tidy constantly. For some it's a mark of honor. It's a weird one for sure.

I keep most of the house clean but something about where I sleep it's just incredibly hard to be consistently disciplined about it, or when I spend a lot of time in my car to keep it ALWAYS cleaned. Anyway, it probably points to something deeper and I'll think on it.

 

[Lanolin]

Well the lamb had to be without blemish or spot.
And the church is to be without wrinkle or spot.

So what are the spots? Sin? Dust? Dirt?
Is this why women spend lots of money on wrinkle creams? And we constantly clean and do laundry?

I think theres a differnce between clean and tidy.
Some people are tidy freaks. Some are clean freaks. Some are both, but woe betide anyone who is clean when they meant to be tidy and tidy when they meant to be clean.

I agree with cleanliess it needs to be disciplined. You cant just do housework once and then it never gets dirty again cos as soon as you make everything clean someone will come in to mess up all your hard work. Children anyone?
Its hard and quite an impossible standard to live up to.

With tidiness, thats seems like a separate issue, God is not the author of confusion and He wants everything done decently and in order. He doesnt like things being mixed up...thats just His character. Hes the God who told the Israelites not to wear clothes made of mixed fabrics. Hes all about quality and purity, in thought and action...and that seems to apply to every area of life. After all, He is Holy.

I one had this student job cleaning house for a very wealthy lady. She had a HUGE house and it took all day to clean. She was divorced and just didnt have time to clean it. I felt sad for her having this huge empty house and then it becomes a burden for her.
I encountered other people that were hoarders...and they somehow expected me to help them clean up their hoards. Sometimes I cant believe other people pack so much junk in their homes. Like cant even literally get in the door, house packed ceiling to floor with stuff, in plastic bags. I know people that frequent op shops (i did use to volunteer in one) and theyd just go there everyday for new old stuff and never stop shopping. Sorting out other peoples junk can be an entire lifetimes work. Not something I really want to do, but then thats what God does with us I suppose.

I know the feeling of being crowded out with other peoples junk. But its true one mans trash can be another persons treasure. GOd does take the broken and mend them. If we could pinpoint the spiritual principal here I think it would benefit a lot of readers. Lets be honest, its really hard to stay clean and tidy ALL the time.

Some people in the other extreme and Ive cleaned for them too. Its never good enough. They will come in right in the middle of what you doing and say 'you missed a spot'. These kinds of people dont lift a finger to help though. You either have to grin or bear it or say well thank you so much for pointing that out, but what about that mote in your own eye?

 

[Kim82]

Stop with your nonsense.

 

[Lanolin]

Ok lets go back to to topic what does the Bible say about cleanliness and does it give us any tips.

Come on, I dont have all day to muse on why its ok to just stay dirty.

David prayed this prayer...create in me a clean heart, O lord, and renew a right spirit within me.

 

[Lanolin]

Ephesians 5:2-5

Interesting what it refers to as all uncleaness, let it not be once named among you as becometh saints.

Neither filthiness..

And then NO unclean person has any inheritance in the kIngdom of Christ and of God.

What is this in reference to, what does the Bible say is an unclean person. Someone who doesnt have the holy spirit? Someone who talks dirty? Cos out of the heart one speaks.

Then ephesians 5:25-28 addresses husbands to love their wives just as Christ loves the church by sanctifying and cleansing it.

Hmm so husbands,,,do you wash you wives or does she need to do all the washing and ironing by herself???

 

[Blik]

Ok lets go back to to topic what does the Bible say about cleanliness and does it give us any tips.

Come on, I dont have all day to muse on why its ok to just stay dirty.

David prayed this prayer...create in me a clean heart, O lord, and renew a right spirit within me.

Our Lord uses symbols in our world. All of what we live, think, and do has spiritual meaning and the results of our actions are spiritual as well as physical. Physical cleanliness is an example.

Deut. 23: 12 Thou shalt have a place also without the camp, whither thou shalt go forth abroad:
13 And thou shalt have a paddle upon thy weapon; and it shall be, when thou wilt ease thyself abroad, thou shalt dig therewith, and shalt turn back and cover that which cometh from thee:
14 For the LORD thy God walketh in the midst of thy camp, to deliver thee, and to give up thine enemies before thee; therefore shall thy camp be holy: that he see no unclean thing in thee, and turn away from thee.

Note that it was physical cleanliness that was necessary for the camp to be holy. The physical results of this law was that a group as large as that group was, living together, did not have the diseases that creeps through large camps of people without cleanliness.

 

[Lanolin]

Our Lord uses symbols in our world. All of what we live, think, and do has spiritual meaning and the results of our actions are spiritual as well as physical. Physical cleanliness is an example.

Deut. 23: 12 Thou shalt have a place also without the camp, whither thou shalt go forth abroad:
13 And thou shalt have a paddle upon thy weapon; and it shall be, when thou wilt ease thyself abroad, thou shalt dig therewith, and shalt turn back and cover that which cometh from thee:
14 For the LORD thy God walketh in the midst of thy camp, to deliver thee, and to give up thine enemies before thee; therefore shall thy camp be holy: that he see no unclean thing in thee, and turn away from thee.

Note that it was physical cleanliness that was necessary for the camp to be holy. The physical results of this law was that a group as large as that group was, living together, did not have the diseases that creeps through large camps of people without cleanliness.

I find it interesting that God told Moses he had to make a special laws for leprosy, why was it so common back then?

 

[Lanolin]

I so agree. If we thought and spoke using the language of Hebrew we wouldn't be using the word law at all. There is no one word to translate how the Hebrew language puts what we read as law. It includes the English word guidance as an example.

I heard the word 'law' can translate as 'teaching'. Or even 'rules'

Mitzvot means 'commandments'
Halakha means 'the way' or 'the way to walk'

Anyway, sure they applied to the Isrselites back then under the old covenant, but theres no reason why we cannot learn from them.
GOds tabernacle was intended as a holy place, the priests were charged with keeping it holy and also if anyone was unclean there was a huge amount of ritual and sacrifices made to purify anyone. I dont quite understand the blood being placed on the tips of ones toes and right thumb and earlobe but thats what they did. And then oil seven times.

Could the 'spots' when referencing the church without wrinkle or spot be blood or something else?

 

[Sipsey]

Here’s the best answer to its origins I could find;

The saying “cleanliness is next to godliness” does not appear in the Bible. The expression is an archaic proverb found in Babylonian and Hebrew religious tracts. Its debut in the English language, in a modified form, is found in the writings of philosopher and scientist Sir Francis Bacon. In Advancement of Learning (1605) he wrote, “Cleanness of body was ever deemed to proceed from a due reverence to God.” Almost two hundred years later (1791), John Wesley made a reference to the expression in one of his sermons in the form we use it today. Wesley wrote, “Slovenliness is no part of religion. Cleanliness is indeed next to Godliness."

It’s hard to say where the idea of a connection between cleanliness and godliness originated. The Israelites were certainly concerned about the concepts of “clean” and “unclean” because a major portion of the Mosaic Law outlines the principles of each. Among the unclean things that God’s people were to avoid are dead bodies and carcasses, eating certain animals, leprosy, and bodily discharges. Elaborate washing rituals were prescribed to render an unclean person clean again so that he could re-enter the community and the sanctuary of the Lord (Numbers 19). For the Jew, keeping the ceremonial laws and regulations was considered the way to approach God. Therefore, it is no wonder that the expression has its roots in Hebrew literature.

Biblically speaking, however, outward cleanliness has no connection to godliness. Jesus made it clear that men are defiled by what is in their hearts and that godliness is not attained by what we eat or don’t eat or by how often we wash our hands (Matthew 7:18-23). The Pharisees who questioned Jesus on His teachings failed to understand that truth. They adhered to the Old Testament requirements and ceremonies as they waited for their Messiah. But when He came and stood before them, they were blinded by their own efforts to obtain righteousness by the Law, and they denied Him. He told them, “You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life” (John 5:39-40). For all their attention to the details of clean and unclean, they remained far from godliness.

The Greek word translated “godliness” in the New Testament means “holiness,” without which no one will see God (Hebrews 12:14). But it is a holiness not obtained by keeping the Law, which is impossible (Romans 3:20; Galatians 2:16), but by being transformed into completely new creations in Christ by the power of God (2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 4:24). At the moment of salvation, we are made completely clean and righteous before God and only then can we share in His godliness.

 

[Blik]

Here’s the best answer to its origins I could find;

The saying “cleanliness is next to godliness” does not appear in the Bible. The expression is an archaic proverb found in Babylonian and Hebrew religious tracts. Its debut in the English language, in a modified form, is found in the writings of philosopher and scientist Sir Francis Bacon. In Advancement of Learning (1605) he wrote, “Cleanness of body was ever deemed to proceed from a due reverence to God.” Almost two hundred years later (1791), John Wesley made a reference to the expression in one of his sermons in the form we use it today. Wesley wrote, “Slovenliness is no part of religion. Cleanliness is indeed next to Godliness."

It’s hard to say where the idea of a connection between cleanliness and godliness originated. The Israelites were certainly concerned about the concepts of “clean” and “unclean” because a major portion of the Mosaic Law outlines the principles of each. Among the unclean things that God’s people were to avoid are dead bodies and carcasses, eating certain animals, leprosy, and bodily discharges. Elaborate washing rituals were prescribed to render an unclean person clean again so that he could re-enter the community and the sanctuary of the Lord (Numbers 19). For the Jew, keeping the ceremonial laws and regulations was considered the way to approach God. Therefore, it is no wonder that the expression has its roots in Hebrew literature.

Biblically speaking, however, outward cleanliness has no connection to godliness. Jesus made it clear that men are defiled by what is in their hearts and that godliness is not attained by what we eat or don’t eat or by how often we wash our hands (Matthew 7:18-23). The Pharisees who questioned Jesus on His teachings failed to understand that truth. They adhered to the Old Testament requirements and ceremonies as they waited for their Messiah. But when He came and stood before them, they were blinded by their own efforts to obtain righteousness by the Law, and they denied Him. He told them, “You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life” (John 5:39-40). For all their attention to the details of clean and unclean, they remained far from godliness.

The Greek word translated “godliness” in the New Testament means “holiness,” without which no one will see God (Hebrews 12:14). But it is a holiness not obtained by keeping the Law, which is impossible (Romans 3:20; Galatians 2:16), but by being transformed into completely new creations in Christ by the power of God (2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 4:24). At the moment of salvation, we are made completely clean and righteous before God and only then can we share in His godliness.

This post gives the best of fleshly reasoning, if you take out the spirit of the Lord this is what you get.

God uses physical acts as a symbol of the spiritual, fleshly reasoning just takes out the spiritual. God looks at the spiritual that the physical acts represent, not the physical acts alone. They can't be separated as God designed our world, and here is a man who believes they can and acts on it.

 

[Sipsey]

This post gives the best of fleshly reasoning, if you take out the spirit of the Lord this is what you get.

God uses physical acts as a symbol of the spiritual, fleshly reasoning just takes out the spiritual. God looks at the spiritual that the physical acts represent, not the physical acts alone. They can't be separated as God designed our world, and here is a man who believes they can and acts on it.

I used a little history and eight different books of Scripture to zero in on the crux of the of the “saying” at issue.
Jesus said it best when He stated in Matthew,
[16] And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
[17] Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
[18] But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
[19] For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
[20] These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

 

[Lanolin]

I used a little history and eight different books of Scripture to zero in on the crux of the of the “saying” at issue.
Jesus said it best when He stated in Matthew,
[16] And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
[17] Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
[18] But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
[19] For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
[20] These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Well the tabernacle or temple actually had three parts to it, the outer court, the inner court, and the holy of holies right in the centre. So it seems the Israelites were cogniszant of how important it was to be holy from the inside out ..and very few could really approach it, only the high priest once a year.

Its a misnomer to say that they only saw the outside appearance of the temple without understanding how important what was going on inside, behind the veil. The thing was later on when the glory of the Lord departed and it was ichabod...people still went to the temple and APPEARED to worship Him, but actually nothing was there, it had become an empty shell. Still maybe clean and beautiful looking on the outside, but actually not on the inside, especially when idols got set up in there.