Salvation by our good works

[obedienttogod]

1 cor 2:14 explains how the natural man, before the transformation, that you mentioned, is, that he cannot discern spiritual things such as a spiritual God or his spiritual laws. The transformation comes as the new birth when God quickens him from being spiritually dead to being spiritually alive. This transformation is explained in Eph 2. The natural man, being spiritually dead will cannot believe and accept Jesus until he has been born again and God has put the Holy Spirit within him, so he is already saved eternally before he believes or accepts Jesus as his savior.

I disagree!!

Once again, billions of people do not believe in God and NEVER WILL. According to you, these people are already saved and promised Eternal Life and that is absolutely incorrect!! And these people cannot be saved until they first believe there is actually a God that not just exists, but a God in which they personally need.

I go back to the WORDS from YESHUA (God) to John about not knowing people and then casting them into the Lake of Fire. This scenario is all about the natural man. But in this setting NOT a single one goes to Eternal Salvation, but to Eternal Damnation.

I am fortunate, I come from a long line of ministers, evangelists, and Bible teachers in major Biblical based universities. So ,I always had an idea about this God. It was never a stretch for me to accept the idea of someone invisible, that I would never see on this side of Heaven, as being the God of my Fathers and eventually the God of myself. But to someone who comes from a long line of atheists, in reality, believing in something you cannot see, you cannot interact with in a face to face setting, or no real evidence of this God anywhere in the confides that reveals all that exists, SCIENCE would always make better common sense. But the majority of these will spend their Eternity in Damnation.

So what you are stating, with your scripture reference, makes no sense to this category of people at all. The ONLY WAY they would ever accept God is by proof, not by FAITH.

And still referring to your scripture reference, those natural men who blindly accept Yeshua before they believe He is real. Are showing an act of Faith, which is required, to not just accept that God is real, but that God has actually saved you. So, it is their FAITH that is actually saving them BEFORE the Promise of God comes into effect.

What you are then specifically claiming here with your scripture reference, is known as, predestination. Meaning, that before the Earth was spoken into existence, God knew how many people would ever exist. And from that point, He knew which would be with Him in Paradise and which would be in the Lake of Fire. Yes, God did already know this. And in that light, you are correct about being saved before knowing and accepting God being real. All that was left from there, was for a believer to become a believer.

But predestiny is a thing that paths like Wicca, paganism, Buddhism, Hinduism, and others all thrive upon. It's why I am careful when discussing it, because technically, you are then equaling our path in Yahweh to similar terms with witchcraft!!

 

[Jackson123]

As a human, we are not Holy, God want us to be Holy

1 Peter 1:16 King James Version (KJV)

16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain

So do we save ? We not Holy and God want us to be Holy

This is my opinion.

Yes we not Holy and God expect us to be Holy, but I believe God understand our situation of being not Holy.

I believe as long as we want to be Holy though fail. We are save.

People that do not have desire to be Holy is not save

This is just my opinion

Both unsave and save are not Holy, the different is, saved willing to learn to be Holy, and unsave do. Not care about holiness

 

[Guojing]

As a human, we are not Holy, God want us to be Holy

I believe as long as we want to be Holy though fail. We are save.

So I can sum up your view as "Try your best, and let God do the rest?"

 

[Jackson123]

So I can sum up your view as "Try your best, and let God do the rest?"

Yep

Unsaved not even think to try, saved keep try to be Holy it fail but it will succeed one day when we see His face in heaven.

 

[Guojing]

Yep

Unsaved not even think to try, saved keep try to be Holy it fail but it will succeed one day when we see His face in heaven.

Okay, nice to confirm that belief of yours.

 

[Grandpa]

Thanks for bring a better light to the scriptures you quoted by describing them in your own words. I see the scriptures in a little different light than you in the fact that when we are in our natural state of sin as described in 1 Cor 2:14 God while we were still dead spiritually quickened us to a spiritual life as explained in Eph 2. I believe that Jesus told us that he would send us the Holy Spirit that would reveal to us the understanding of the scriptures. God hates sin and I believe that the scriptures teach that he will not fellowship with sin. He turned his back on his Son during the three hours that Jesus was burdened with all of the sin's of God's elect on the cross, Jesus crying out, "my God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me. After we have been regenerated and indulge in the sins of this world, the Holy Spirit stays within us and pricks our hearts to repent, but God will not fellowship with sin, during the time span that we are actively sinning until we repent. This may not make sense to you, but it does to me. I still have need of further understanding of the scriptures and do not believe that I will never be knowledgeable of the whole truth.

God never turned His Back on Christ.

I will never leave you nor forsake you.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I disagree!!

Once again, billions of people do not believe in God and NEVER WILL. According to you, these people are already saved and promised Eternal Life and that is absolutely incorrect!! And these people cannot be saved until they first believe there is actually a God that not just exists, but a God in which they personally need.

I go back to the WORDS from YESHUA (God) to John about not knowing people and then casting them into the Lake of Fire. This scenario is all about the natural man. But in this setting NOT a single one goes to Eternal Salvation, but to Eternal Damnation.

I am fortunate, I come from a long line of ministers, evangelists, and Bible teachers in major Biblical based universities. So ,I always had an idea about this God. It was never a stretch for me to accept the idea of someone invisible, that I would never see on this side of Heaven, as being the God of my Fathers and eventually the God of myself. But to someone who comes from a long line of atheists, in reality, believing in something you cannot see, you cannot interact with in a face to face setting, or no real evidence of this God anywhere in the confides that reveals all that exists, SCIENCE would always make better common sense. But the majority of these will spend their Eternity in Damnation.

So what you are stating, with your scripture reference, makes no sense to this category of people at all. The ONLY WAY they would ever accept God is by proof, not by FAITH.

And still referring to your scripture reference, those natural men who blindly accept Yeshua before they believe He is real. Are showing an act of Faith, which is required, to not just accept that God is real, but that God has actually saved you. So, it is their FAITH that is actually saving them BEFORE the Promise of God comes into effect.

What you are then specifically claiming here with your scripture reference, is known as, predestination. Meaning, that before the Earth was spoken into existence, God knew how many people would ever exist. And from that point, He knew which would be with Him in Paradise and which would be in the Lake of Fire. Yes, God did already know this. And in that light, you are correct about being saved before knowing and accepting God being real. All that was left from there, was for a believer to become a believer.

But predestiny is a thing that paths like Wicca, paganism, Buddhism, Hinduism, and others all thrive upon. It's why I am careful when discussing it, because technically, you are then equaling our path in Yahweh to similar terms with witchcraft!!

You say that the natural man's faith is what saves hi, eternally. The natural man has faith in worldly things, where the spiritual man, being quickened to a spiritual life now has spiritual faith, which is a fruit of the Spirit (Galatians). You must be born again and have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit before you can have spiritual faith. The reason it was never a stretch for you to accept the idea of someone invisible is because you were already quickened to new life and had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Many of God's children looked upon this mysterious doctrine that Jesus taught the same way that you are viewing it.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

God never turned His Back on Christ.

I will never leave you nor forsake you.

So then you do not believe God forsake his Son in those three hours? God will not leave us in the fact that when we are actively engaging in sin he is with us in the form of the Holy Spirit and we do not lose our security of eternal heaven, but I believe that God, himself, will turn his back on the Holy Spirit just as he did on his Son. God hates sin and will not fellowship with sin. Can you explain how you interpret the scripture where Jesus said "my God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me"?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

As a human, we are not Holy, God want us to be Holy

1 Peter 1:16 King James Version (KJV)

16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain

So do we save ? We not Holy and God want us to be Holy

This is my opinion.

Yes we not Holy and God expect us to be Holy, but I believe God understand our situation of being not Holy.

I believe as long as we want to be Holy though fail. We are save.

People that do not have desire to be Holy is not save

This is just my opinion

Both unsave and save are not Holy, the different is, saved willing to learn to be Holy, and unsave do. Not care about holiness

The natural man has no thoughts of wanting to be holy. The only way a person would want to be holy is if he has already been quickened to new spiritual life as explained in Eph 2.

 

[obedienttogod]

You say that the natural man's faith is what saves hi, eternally. The natural man has faith in worldly things, where the spiritual man, being quickened to a spiritual life now has spiritual faith, which is a fruit of the Spirit (Galatians). You must be born again and have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit before you can have spiritual faith. The reason it was never a stretch for you to accept the idea of someone invisible is because you were already quickened to new life and had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Many of God's children looked upon this mysterious doctrine that Jesus taught the same way that you are viewing it.

Still, what you seem to be ignoring, is the fact it takes the natural man to have faith in a God he believes he needs before he can surrender to it. And since the natural man cannot see God physically, spiritually, metaphorically in the beginning, it requires the natural man to have a measure of FAITH to believe in something he cannot recognize on his own understanding. And the natural man is not yet SAVED until he believes he is SAVED from his own perspective.

God already has forgiven the natural man at the time of his sincere repentance. But it does not matter until the natural man can believe he is actually SAVED. He could go back to his old ways and never follow God from the point of repentance. But once the natural man believes he is SAVED by God, then we see a change and transformation in the natural man because now he is trying to become more like God. And the natural man can never believe he is SAVED until he believes it through FAITH!!

 

[Grandpa]

So then you do not believe God forsake his Son in those three hours? God will not leave us in the fact that when we are actively engaging in sin he is with us in the form of the Holy Spirit and we do not lose our security of eternal heaven, but I believe that God, himself, will turn his back on the Holy Spirit just as he did on his Son. God hates sin and will not fellowship with sin. Can you explain how you interpret the scripture where Jesus said "my God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me"?

No, God did not forsake the Lord Jesus Christ.

The Lord was quoting Psalm 22. He was teaching us, even from the Cross, that God would never leave us nor forsake us.

Psalm 22:24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

No, God did not forsake the Lord Jesus Christ.

The Lord was quoting Psalm 22. He was teaching us, even from the Cross, that God would never leave us nor forsake us.

Psalm 22:24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.

I believe that all scripture must harmonize or you are not understanding the doctrine that Jesus taught. How do you harmonize Mark 15:34?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Still, what you seem to be ignoring, is the fact it takes the natural man to have faith in a God he believes he needs before he can surrender to it. And since the natural man cannot see God physically, spiritually, metaphorically in the beginning, it requires the natural man to have a measure of FAITH to believe in something he cannot recognize on his own understanding. And the natural man is not yet SAVED until he believes he is SAVED from his own perspective.

God already has forgiven the natural man at the time of his sincere repentance. But it does not matter until the natural man can believe he is actually SAVED. He could go back to his old ways and never follow God from the point of repentance. But once the natural man believes he is SAVED by God, then we see a change and transformation in the natural man because now he is trying to become more like God. And the natural man can never believe he is SAVED until he believes it through FAITH!!

You are not harmonizing the scriptures. The only faith that the natural man has is faith in the things of the world. He has no spiritual faith until he is born again and has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (Eph 2) in which faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. No Holy Spirit, no spiritual faith.

 

[obedienttogod]

You are not harmonizing the scriptures. The only faith that the natural man has is faith in the things of the world. He has no spiritual faith until he is born again and has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (Eph 2) in which faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. No Holy Spirit, no spiritual faith.

^That is common knowledge and not even remotely close to what I am and have been stating all along.

Not a single human being believes they are saved until they believe there is a God. When they do begin to believe they are saved, they do so because they have FAITH that (1) there is really a God, and (2) God has forgiven and SAVED them because they believe in FAITH.

If you have ever had a job, did you believe you would get paid on payday IF you worked hours before hand? You work these hours and a week goes by with no paycheck. You work another week and then finally come payday you get a check. Did you take that job believing you would make money from it? YES, because you had FAITH that if you work you will get paid for it.

Have you ever dug a hole into the ground and planted a seed? Did you believe, that if you add water to it and sunlight that this seed would eventually develop into a tree or plant? You can see a SEED, it's just a small little seed. It's not a tree, bush, or plant, but a little small seed. How is it you believe this small seed will then become a tree, shrub, plant? IF you HAVE NEVER planted a seed and watched it become something more than the seed, how is it you BELIEVE this small seed will become a tree, shrub, plant?

Same with God.
If you don't believe there is a God, how can you believe you need a God for Salvation?
At this point, it literally requires you to believe in a God in order for you to believe you are SAVED.
What is this act called?
FAITH!!

STOP twisting words.
I understand that is your mentality and psychological make-up to do so, since I understand who you appear to be. But you really have to stop twisting meanings, because you cannot fool me by it. I am not an ENABLER which is the type of person you need to feed off of!!

Lucky for you that you belong to a church. Because many people in a church setting are ENABLERS. And you can feed off the SUCKERS all day long.

But on this forum and while interacting with ME, you best remember that I AM NOT AN ENABLER and not afraid to step on your toes at any given moment.

 

[Grandpa]

I believe that all scripture must harmonize or you are not understanding the doctrine that Jesus taught. How do you harmonize Mark 15:34?

Psalm 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

Yes. All scripture must harmonize.

Psalm 22:24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.

Maybe you just didn't know that Christ was quoting Psalm 22?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Psalm 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

Yes. All scripture must harmonize.

Psalm 22:24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.

Maybe you just didn't know that Christ was quoting Psalm 22?

God does, at times forsake and hide his face from his disobedient children - Deut 31. When we are disobedient and turn to repent God hears us.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

^That is common knowledge and not even remotely close to what I am and have been stating all along.

Not a single human being believes they are saved until they believe there is a God. When they do begin to believe they are saved, they do so because they have FAITH that (1) there is really a God, and (2) God has forgiven and SAVED them because they believe in FAITH.

If you have ever had a job, did you believe you would get paid on payday IF you worked hours before hand? You work these hours and a week goes by with no paycheck. You work another week and then finally come payday you get a check. Did you take that job believing you would make money from it? YES, because you had FAITH that if you work you will get paid for it.

Have you ever dug a hole into the ground and planted a seed? Did you believe, that if you add water to it and sunlight that this seed would eventually develop into a tree or plant? You can see a SEED, it's just a small little seed. It's not a tree, bush, or plant, but a little small seed. How is it you believe this small seed will then become a tree, shrub, plant? IF you HAVE NEVER planted a seed and watched it become something more than the seed, how is it you BELIEVE this small seed will become a tree, shrub, plant?

Same with God.
If you don't believe there is a God, how can you believe you need a God for Salvation?
At this point, it literally requires you to believe in a God in order for you to believe you are SAVED.
What is this act called?
FAITH!!

STOP twisting words.
I understand that is your mentality and psychological make-up to do so, since I understand who you appear to be. But you really have to stop twisting meanings, because you cannot fool me by it. I am not an ENABLER which is the type of person you need to feed off of!!

Lucky for you that you belong to a church. Because many people in a church setting are ENABLERS. And you can feed off the SUCKERS all day long.

But on this forum and while interacting with ME, you best remember that I AM NOT AN ENABLER and not afraid to step on your toes at any given moment.

You surly do understand that all of the examples of having faith was the things that the natural man would have faith in because those examples were of the things in the world. No examples of spiritual faith (having faith in spiritual things).

 

[obedienttogod]

You surly do understand that all of the examples of having faith was the things that the natural man would have faith in because those examples were of the things in the world. No examples of spiritual faith (having faith in spiritual things).

I am only speaking about the kind of FAITH it takes to believe in God, to believe you need to be saved, to repent, to accept Yeshua into your life, to believe you are SAVED!!

That is the ONLY kind of FAITH that I actually care about and speak about

 

[Guojing]

I am only speaking about the kind of FAITH it takes to believe in God, to believe you need to be saved, to repent, to accept Yeshua into your life, to believe you are SAVED!!

That is the ONLY kind of FAITH that I actually care about and speak about

FGC has the concept of Limited Atonement, from the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith, in his mind, as he is discussing this with you. Bear that in mind

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I am only speaking about the kind of FAITH it takes to believe in God, to believe you need to be saved, to repent, to accept Yeshua into your life, to believe you are SAVED!!

That is the ONLY kind of FAITH that I actually care about and speak about

The faith you are speaking of comes only from the indwelling Holy Spirit after you have been born again and given a new heart. Faith is a fruit of the holy Spirit (Gal 5). The natural man cannot have the kind of faith that would make him believe in spiritual things.