Faith/Works...How much faith? How much works?
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Problems arise between "faith verses works", when one believer having great faith, and doing much, or many "works", is "viewed", or seen, by another, or group of others (as water tends to seek its own level, or levels, depending on the vessel, or vessels 
), as doing "works for salvation."
Of course, the "works" which one accuses the other of doing, is never ever defined as to what they are! So are left to the interpretation of each reader's "Theatre of the Mind", or conscience, as to what the "accuser, or accusers", are actually referring to.
Sinking to the "depth of ambiguity", to the point when nitpicking, not only is encouraged, but, even worse, taken up as a sport, for some. And, worser then that? A blood sport, for others!
To such an extent this occurs, it causes some people to wonder concerning others, "to what extent, or depths of darkness, will some people take their own soul/s, or spirit/s to to be right!" It truly "boggles the mind", and is very sad in the witnessing of, these one's vainful pursuings.
Some people or "organizations", refer to this "strategy", if you will, as compartmentalization.
Here's what God thinks of this. (sighs) And, it seems, as true these days as it was in Joshua's days:
Joshua 23
7 That ye come not among these nations, these that remain among you; neither make mention of the name of their gods, nor cause to swear by them, neither serve them, nor bow yourselves unto them:
9 For the Lord hath driven out from before you great nations and strong: but as for you, no man hath been able to stand before you unto this day.
11 Take good heed therefore unto yourselves, that ye love the Lord your God.
12 Else if ye do in any wise go back, and cleave unto the remnant of these nations, even these that remain among you, and shall make marriages with them, and go in unto them, and they to you:
13 KNOW(!) FOR A CERTAINTY(!) that the Lord your God will no more drive out any of these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until ye perish from off this good land which the Lord your God hath given you.
And this can, and should be APPLIED to as personally (compartmentally) as it is NATIONALLY! This includes any, and/or all "nations!"
It blows my mind how people think, and then perpetuate how, after believing and accepting Christ as their Lord and Savior? They are then WHOLE! (and?) NO WORKS REQUIRED!
Like a bunch of "self support" groups, churchianity has become!
Cuz, yer never "done", until, you're there!"
Or, until Jesus comes back!
Whichever comes first!
), as doing "works for salvation." Of course, the "works" which one accuses the other of doing, is never ever defined as to what they are! So are left to the interpretation of each reader's "Theatre of the Mind", or conscience, as to what the "accuser, or accusers", are actually referring to.
Sinking to the "depth of ambiguity", to the point when nitpicking, not only is encouraged, but, even worse, taken up as a sport, for some. And, worser then that? A blood sport, for others!
To such an extent this occurs, it causes some people to wonder concerning others, "to what extent, or depths of darkness, will some people take their own soul/s, or spirit/s to to be right!" It truly "boggles the mind", and is very sad in the witnessing of, these one's vainful pursuings.
Some people or "organizations", refer to this "strategy", if you will, as compartmentalization.
Here's what God thinks of this. (sighs) And, it seems, as true these days as it was in Joshua's days:
Joshua 23
7 That ye come not among these nations, these that remain among you; neither make mention of the name of their gods, nor cause to swear by them, neither serve them, nor bow yourselves unto them:
9 For the Lord hath driven out from before you great nations and strong: but as for you, no man hath been able to stand before you unto this day.
11 Take good heed therefore unto yourselves, that ye love the Lord your God.
12 Else if ye do in any wise go back, and cleave unto the remnant of these nations, even these that remain among you, and shall make marriages with them, and go in unto them, and they to you:
13 KNOW(!) FOR A CERTAINTY(!) that the Lord your God will no more drive out any of these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until ye perish from off this good land which the Lord your God hath given you.
And this can, and should be APPLIED to as personally (compartmentally) as it is NATIONALLY! This includes any, and/or all "nations!"
It blows my mind how people think, and then perpetuate how, after believing and accepting Christ as their Lord and Savior? They are then WHOLE! (and?) NO WORKS REQUIRED!
Like a bunch of "self support" groups, churchianity has become!
Cuz, yer never "done", until, you're there!"
Or, until Jesus comes back!
Whichever comes first!
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This post is beautiful and so well-reasoned. It must be the Hand of the lord. Yahweh bless you and keep you close always, amen. (He is here, amen.)
Problems arise between "faith verses works", when one believer having great faith, and doing much, or many "works", is "viewed", or seen, by another, or group of others (as water tends to seek its own level, or levels, depending on the vessel, or vessels ), as doing "works for salvation."
Of course, the "works" which one accuses the other of doing, is never ever defined as to what they are! So are left to the interpretation of each reader's "Theatre of the Mind", or conscience, as to what the "accuser, or accusers", are actually referring to.
Sinking to the "depth of ambiguity", to the point when nitpicking, not only is encouraged, but, even worse, taken up as a sport, for some. And, worser then that? A blood sport, for others!
To such an extent this occurs, it causes some people to wonder concerning others, "to what extent, or depths of darkness, will some people take their own soul/s, or spirit/s to to be right!" It truly "boggles the mind", and is very sad in the witnessing of, these one's vainful pursuings.
Some people or "organizations", refer to this "strategy", if you will, as compartmentalization.
Here's what God thinks of this. (sighs) And, it seems, as true these days as it was in Joshua's days:
Joshua 23
7 That ye come not among these nations, these that remain among you; neither make mention of the name of their gods, nor cause to swear by them, neither serve them, nor bow yourselves unto them:
9 For the Lord hath driven out from before you great nations and strong: but as for you, no man hath been able to stand before you unto this day.
11 Take good heed therefore unto yourselves, that ye love the Lord your God.
12 Else if ye do in any wise go back, and cleave unto the remnant of these nations, even these that remain among you, and shall make marriages with them, and go in unto them, and they to you:
13 KNOW(!) FOR A CERTAINTY(!) that the Lord your God will no more drive out any of these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until ye perish from off this good land which the Lord your God hath given you.
And this can, and should be APPLIED to as personally (compartmentally) as it is NATIONALLY! This includes any, and/or all "nations!"
It blows my mind how people think, and then perpetuate how, after believing and accepting Christ as their Lord and Savior? They are then WHOLE! (and?) NO WORKS REQUIRED!
Like a bunch of "self support" groups, churchianity has become!
Cuz, yer never "done", until, you're there!"
Or, until Jesus comes back!
Whichever comes first!
), as doing "works for salvation."Of course, the "works" which one accuses the other of doing, is never ever defined as to what they are! So are left to the interpretation of each reader's "Theatre of the Mind", or conscience, as to what the "accuser, or accusers", are actually referring to.
Sinking to the "depth of ambiguity", to the point when nitpicking, not only is encouraged, but, even worse, taken up as a sport, for some. And, worser then that? A blood sport, for others!
To such an extent this occurs, it causes some people to wonder concerning others, "to what extent, or depths of darkness, will some people take their own soul/s, or spirit/s to to be right!" It truly "boggles the mind", and is very sad in the witnessing of, these one's vainful pursuings.
Some people or "organizations", refer to this "strategy", if you will, as compartmentalization.
Here's what God thinks of this. (sighs) And, it seems, as true these days as it was in Joshua's days:
Joshua 23
7 That ye come not among these nations, these that remain among you; neither make mention of the name of their gods, nor cause to swear by them, neither serve them, nor bow yourselves unto them:
9 For the Lord hath driven out from before you great nations and strong: but as for you, no man hath been able to stand before you unto this day.
11 Take good heed therefore unto yourselves, that ye love the Lord your God.
12 Else if ye do in any wise go back, and cleave unto the remnant of these nations, even these that remain among you, and shall make marriages with them, and go in unto them, and they to you:
13 KNOW(!) FOR A CERTAINTY(!) that the Lord your God will no more drive out any of these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until ye perish from off this good land which the Lord your God hath given you.
And this can, and should be APPLIED to as personally (compartmentally) as it is NATIONALLY! This includes any, and/or all "nations!"
It blows my mind how people think, and then perpetuate how, after believing and accepting Christ as their Lord and Savior? They are then WHOLE! (and?) NO WORKS REQUIRED!
Like a bunch of "self support" groups, churchianity has become!
Cuz, yer never "done", until, you're there!"
Or, until Jesus comes back!
Whichever comes first!
E
How much faith?
Whatever amount it takes for a person to get on their knees in total brokenness to call out on the name of the lord to be saved (I think it may vary between different people. But If I had to put an actually number on it, I think faiht of a mustard seed fits. That is not very much faith, even the man said to jesus, I believe, help me in my unbelief)
How much work?
To be saved, Zero Jesus completed all the word required
After we are saved, again if varies from person to person. A baby christian will be limited as to how much work they can do. Where a spiritual mature person will probably do great works out of gratitude and FAITH in God.
Whatever amount it takes for a person to get on their knees in total brokenness to call out on the name of the lord to be saved (I think it may vary between different people. But If I had to put an actually number on it, I think faiht of a mustard seed fits. That is not very much faith, even the man said to jesus, I believe, help me in my unbelief)
How much work?
To be saved, Zero Jesus completed all the word required
After we are saved, again if varies from person to person. A baby christian will be limited as to how much work they can do. Where a spiritual mature person will probably do great works out of gratitude and FAITH in God.
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E
Problems arise between "faith verses works", when one believer having great faith, and doing much, or many "works", is "viewed", or seen, by another, or group of others (as water tends to seek its own level, or levels, depending on the vessel, or vessels ), as doing "works for salvation."
), as doing "works for salvation."
I know people who say that these are REQUIRED to maintain salvation, and they are viewed as doing this
But I have never in all my life said anyone who has actually done these works (say people like Paul. Peter. John, And many many other great men of God) say they were doing these works to earn salvation
Faith that trusts 100% in Jesus Christ for salvation. Either we are trusting 100% in Jesus Christ/His finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation (Romans 3:24-28) or else we are 100% lost. Faith in Christ is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful.
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IMHO?
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: We are in these days, where applications and interviews, are being held.
So, there's still time? But, not much!
But, as I said. IMHO.
and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: We are in these days, where applications and interviews, are being held.
So, there's still time? But, not much!
But, as I said. IMHO.
and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Lemme answer ya this way EG.
Would ya say Jesus is a Priest of the Most High God? After the "Order of Melchizadek?" I hope you would.
Now, being a "Priest" of Jesus Christ, and being "formed in the image" OF Christ? After some time of being formed INTO Christ's image? Is it so too much a "leap of faith", that one "could", I'll even go as far as to say "SHOULD" also BECOME, not only a Priest of Jesus Christ, but ALSO a Priest of the Most High God oneself?
For this VERY thing the high priests of Jesus' day couldn't comprehend this. And some of Jesus' Disciples couldn't either! Paul did though! So did Peter! So did Thomas! And, a few others.
This should BE THE GOAL of EVERY BELIEVER!
Way Churchianity has become? Can't even get past first base! And, when they get "caught", trying to "steal second?" (which, I must say happens every time) They figure themselves "out of the game!"
Not so! Not so!
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E
I agree with what you said here and everyone I know would (this is talking about personal sanctification which every believer experiences)
But that was not my question’’You made an accusation against people like me, saying we think all people who do many works preach a works based salvation, Can you prove this accusation?
But that was not my question’’You made an accusation against people like me, saying we think all people who do many works preach a works based salvation, Can you prove this accusation?
When one states either implicitly, or by insinuation, that ANY "EFFORTS" beyond "Salvation is by grace through FAITH ALONE?" Constitutes "Works FOR Salvation!"
It is not a "works based salvation", I teach, or preach either! More like "works (internal efforts)" beneficial for further grafting!"
Only thing I am accusing is that spirit of anti-christ which is telling people, that no further efforts are needed, nor required!
Pretty tricky! spirit of "instead OF Christ" is!
(I gotta go...be back come later)
It is not a "works based salvation", I teach, or preach either! More like "works (internal efforts)" beneficial for further grafting!"
Only thing I am accusing is that spirit of anti-christ which is telling people, that no further efforts are needed, nor required!
Pretty tricky! spirit of "instead OF Christ" is!
(I gotta go...be back come later)
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When we bear fruit, its not our works, its HIS work.
And the Bible does say that those planted on good soil, will have different degrees of fruitfulness, some thirtyfold, some sixtyfold, some hundredfold. The point is, all had fruit.
When Jesus was talking about faith of mustard seed, he also mentioned the mustard seed would grow, into a huge bush and birds would come nest in the branches. So your faith is actually going to grow from tiny tiny beginnings. So be encouraged.
Our part is to nuture this and the best way to ensure frutifulness? First make sure you got the right seed, and then plant in GOOD SOIL. And if you have poor soil, improve it! It might take a few year but its worth it! jesus gave us gardening tips...put heaps of manure on it and leave it for a year! If no fruit by then, sure you can cut it down. But first leave it to grow.
And the Bible does say that those planted on good soil, will have different degrees of fruitfulness, some thirtyfold, some sixtyfold, some hundredfold. The point is, all had fruit.
When Jesus was talking about faith of mustard seed, he also mentioned the mustard seed would grow, into a huge bush and birds would come nest in the branches. So your faith is actually going to grow from tiny tiny beginnings. So be encouraged.
Our part is to nuture this and the best way to ensure frutifulness? First make sure you got the right seed, and then plant in GOOD SOIL. And if you have poor soil, improve it! It might take a few year but its worth it! jesus gave us gardening tips...put heaps of manure on it and leave it for a year! If no fruit by then, sure you can cut it down. But first leave it to grow.
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IMHO?
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: We are in these days, where applications and interviews, are being held.
So, there's still time? But, not much!
But, as I said. IMHO.
and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: We are in these days, where applications and interviews, are being held.
So, there's still time? But, not much!
But, as I said. IMHO.
and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
LORD, LORD, have we NOT done x, y and z in your name...........'
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I hope Jesus Christ and Him crucified for my sins and risen for my life is the root of my salvation and not my faith, but I know what you are getting at.
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