Retire the Ten Commandments?

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BibletruthSOP said:
Thankyou,
Would you explain how the 4th commandment of the 10 can be considered a shadow of things to come when it was specifically given as a memorial and pointed back to creation and not to pointing something out in the future.
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The Sabbath was given to the nation of Israel (Exodus 13:13-17). It's often claimed by SDA's that “God instituted the Sabbath in the Garden of Eden” because of the connection between the Sabbath and creation in Exodus 20:11, yet again, although God's rest on the seventh day (Genesis 2:3) did foreshadow a future Sabbath law, there is no Biblical record of the Sabbath before the children of Israel left the land of Egypt. *Nowhere in Scripture is there any hint that Sabbath keeping was practiced from Adam to Moses.*

Look at Deuteronomy 5:1-15 which gives the commandments to Israel. 2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. 3 The Lord did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, those who are here today, all of us who are alive.

Nehemiah 9:13 - “Then You came down on Mount Sinai, And spoke with them from heaven; You gave them just ordinances and true laws, Good statutes and commandments. 14 “So You made known to them Your holy sabbath, And laid down for them commandments, statutes and law, Through Your servant Moses.

The Word of God makes it clear that Sabbath observance was a sign between God and Israel: “The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested” (Exodus 31:16-17).

In Deuteronomy 5, Moses restates the 10 commandments to the next generation of Israelites. Here, after commanding Sabbath observance in verses 12–14, Moses gives the reason the Sabbath was given to the nation Israel: “Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the Lord your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day” (Deuteronomy 5:15).

If every man from Adam to Moses kept the Sabbath, why is the Hebrew word for the weekly Sabbath found in the 10 commandments, never found in the book of Genesis? Why is no one before Moses ever being told to keep the Sabbath?

*The Sabbath is a shadow of what is to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. (Colossians 2:16-17) In Hebrews 4:9, we read - So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. (NASB) Notice that the Greek word "sabbatismos" is used no where else in the Bible! SDA's try to argue that this is the word for "keeping the weekly Sabbath" yet it is never used anywhere in the New Testament!

W. E. Vine, Greek Dictionary proves the Sabbatarian argument wrong: SABBATISMOS (4520), a Sabbath-keeping, is used in Heb. 4:9, R.V., "a Sabbath rest," A.V. marg., "a keeping of a Sabbath" (akin to sabbatizoµ, to keep the Sabbath, used, e.g., in Ex. 16:30, not in the N.T.); here the Sabbath-keeping is the perpetual Sabbath rest to be enjoyed uninterruptedly by believers in their fellowship with the Father and the Son, in contrast to the weekly Sabbath under the Law. Because this Sabbath rest is the rest of God Himself, its full fruition is yet future, though believers now enter into it. (y)

I hope your looking for a succinct answer, so I shall say it this way (realizing it can be said in different words) : the gospel is the good news of a savior (messiah; Jesus) who came to show the true character of love of the Father, who came to save humanity from the bondage (no strength to resist) and curse (eternal death) of sin, and who came to destroy the works of Satan (render Satan's power ineffective in the life of a believer), and that He was 100% successful in all of that, and for those who believe, give eternal life.

I could say it in many different ways, but that's a nice overview, don't you think?
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The gospel certain is "good news." It's the good news of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. The gospel is certainly not salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works. (Galatians 1:6-9)
 
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seed_time_harvest said:
I know that It sounds ridiculous that a person that has gotten saved would still be saved If they were sinning as much as any other worldly person but you have to remember that It was the Born again christians spirit that was created perfect and a person's performance will have no effect on GODs workmanship,but the thing to know Is that the Born again Christian Is GODs workmanship created In CHRIST unto good works.
Also Every man that has this hope of eternal life with GOD seeks to purify their body/mind to match their perfectly made truly righteous spirits
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A "righteous spirit" would mean a righteous mind and no sinning
 
BibletruthSOP said:
Jesus said come unto me ye that are heavy laden, for my yoke is easy and my burden is light. So is it easier to be saved than lost?
Is the "heavy laden" the burden of sin? Jesus is infinitely more powerful than Satan, so in Christ shouldn't sin be gone?
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The heavy burden is ....sin.
 
Grandpa said:
Could very well be? I can assure you that the Lord fulfilled the Law to the uttermost.

What is lacking is peoples faith. What is lacking is people coming to the Lord.


Its not just you. Its all who are still in unbelief.

Trumpets - The coming of the Saviour Jesus Christ. - already has come

Day of Atonement - The Lord Jesus Christ atoned for the sins of the world - already done

Tabernacles - The Lord Jesus Christ presently tabernacles with His People - already done and doing


All has been and is being fulfilled, at this present time. The only thing that is not fulfilled is who and how many will come to Christ and have faith that the Lord has accomplished what He has said He would accomplish.


Its absolutely incomprehensible that a Christian would teach other Christians that the Lord Jesus Christ has failed in what He set out to do. Which is what you, and the unbelieving jews do, when they teach that the Lord DID NOT fulfill all the law.

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
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Christ on the cross gave us a basis for redemption/forgiveness. Has nothing to do with the law as you apply it.
 
mailmandan said:
The (ten commandments including the Sabbath) Sabbath was given to the nation of Israel (Exodus 13:13-17). It's often claimed by SDA's that “God instituted the Sabbath in the Garden of Eden” (where God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it [or set it aside for holy use]: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made, ) because of the connection between the Sabbath and creation in Exodus 20:11 (Genesis 2:3), yet again, although God's rest on the seventh day (Genesis 2:3) did foreshadow a future Sabbath law, (text please that shows Gods setting aside the seventh day as foreshadowing a FUTURE law, since the Sabbath is a memorial of creation; also texts where the other commandments within the ten commandments were the "future" laws) there is no Biblical record of the Sabbath before the children of Israel left the land of Egypt. *Nowhere in Scripture is there any hint that Sabbath keeping was practiced from Adam to Moses.*
(Have you thought of how many years transpired between Adam and Moses and how many bible pages are involved in that period and how many bible pages involved with stupendous events, even the flood, during that period...Also read Exodus 16 and see the Sabbath specifically spoken about and how it is spoken about before the Israelites ever arrived at Mt. Sinai and also note the plural use of the word commandments etc. The Sabbath was from creation and was codified at Sinai, like the other commandments).
Look at Deuteronomy 5:1-15 which gives the commandments to Israel. 2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. 3 The Lord did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, those who are here today, all of us who are alive.
(The ten commandments are applicable to all humanity and are kept by those who are in a faithful relationship with God, his people, )
Nehemiah 9:13 - “Then You came down on Mount Sinai, And spoke with them from heaven; You gave them just ordinances and true laws, Good statutes and commandments. 14 “So You made known to them (not instituted at that time, but made KNOWN after 400 years of slavery) Your (Your) holy sabbath, And laid down for them commandments, statutes and law, Through Your servant Moses.

The Word of God makes it clear that Sabbath observance was a sign between God and Israel: “The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested” (Exodus 31:16-17).

In Deuteronomy 5, Moses restates the 10 commandments to the next generation of Israelites. Here, after commanding Sabbath observance in verses 12–14, Moses gives the reason the Sabbath was given to the nation Israel: “Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the Lord your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day” (Deuteronomy 5:15).

If every man from Adam to Moses kept the Sabbath, why is the Hebrew word for the weekly Sabbath found in the 10 commandments, never found in the book of Genesis? Why is no one before Moses ever being told to keep the Sabbath? (Do you think Adam worked on the 7th day, the day God blessed (to bless man) and sanctified (set apart for holy use) or that any follower of God did? )

*The Sabbath is a shadow of what is to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. (Colossians 2:16-17) In Hebrews 4:9, we read - So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. (NASB) Notice that the Greek word "sabbatismos" is used no where else in the Bible! SDA's try to argue that this is the word for "keeping the weekly Sabbath" yet it is never used anywhere in the New Testament!

W. E. Vine, Greek Dictionary proves the Sabbatarian argument wrong: SABBATISMOS (4520), a Sabbath-keeping, is used in Heb. 4:9, R.V., "a Sabbath rest," A.V. marg., "a keeping of a Sabbath" (akin to sabbatizoµ, to keep the Sabbath, used, e.g., in Ex. 16:30, not in the N.T.); here the Sabbath-keeping is the perpetual Sabbath rest to be enjoyed uninterruptedly by believers in their fellowship with the Father and the Son, in contrast to the weekly Sabbath under the Law. Because this Sabbath rest is the rest of God Himself, its full fruition is yet future, though believers now enter into it. (y)

The gospel certain is "good news." It's the good news of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation (and to love to obey Jesus, i.e. If you love me, keep my commandments.) The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. The gospel is certainly not salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works. (Galatians 1:6-9)
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The 10 commandments broken = sin. Sin (transgression of the 10 commandment law) is the reason man needs a savior. Obviously if man had any inherent merit or could think, say, or do anything that had merit toward salvation from sin, then a savior is not needed. Even more obvious is that since the wage of sin is eternal death (that wage for sin never changes), the very thought that a man can pay that wage for his own sin and somehow again be alive is crazy. And what is almost crazier is to come to think that the normative life of a grace saved Christian includes breaking God's commandments , i.e. doing that which put Jesus on the Cross , or as the bible puts it, crucifying Christ afresh. Don't even think you are converted/saved if you are till crucifying Christ afresh in your daily living.
 
BibletruthSOP said:
The 10 commandments broken = sin. Sin (transgression of the 10 commandment law) is the reason man needs a savior. Obviously if man had any inherent merit or could think, say, or do anything that had merit toward salvation from sin, then a savior is not needed. Even more obvious is that since the wage of sin is eternal death (that wage for sin never changes), the very thought that a man can pay that wage for his own sin and somehow again be alive is crazy. And what is almost crazier is to come to think that the normative life of a grace saved Christian includes breaking God's commandments , i.e. doing that which put Jesus on the Cross , or as the bible puts it, crucifying Christ afresh. Don't even think you are converted/saved if you are till crucifying Christ afresh in your daily living.
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Sorry I forgot to say that all in blue is comments from me and not Mailmandans words.
 
BibletruthSOP said:
The 10 commandments broken = sin. Sin (transgression of the 10 commandment law) is the reason man needs a savior. Obviously if man had any inherent merit or could think, say, or do anything that had merit toward salvation from sin, then a savior is not needed. Even more obvious is that since the wage of sin is eternal death (that wage for sin never changes), the very thought that a man can pay that wage for his own sin and somehow again be alive is crazy. And what is almost crazier is to come to think that the normative life of a grace saved Christian includes breaking God's commandments, i.e. doing that which put Jesus on the Cross, or as the bible puts it, crucifying Christ afresh. Don't even think you are converted/saved if you are till crucifying Christ afresh in your daily living.
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1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (demonstrative evidence) if we keep His commandments. BTW the Greek word for "keep" is "tereo" (Strong's #5083) which means to (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments. - https://biblehub.com/greek/5083.htm

It does not mean sinless, perfect obedience 100% of the time to the 10 commandments, as sinless perfectionists teach. 1 John 1:8 - If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

Those who have come to know Him guard, observe, watch over His commandments and do not practice sin as a willful, habitual lifestyle, with no effort or goal to stop. Those who are born of God practice righteousness and not sin (1 John 3:9-10 NASB).
 
preston39 said:
The heavy burden is ....sin.
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Sin is not a heavy burden. Sin comes really easy.

The heavy burden is trying to be sinless by your work at the law. That is really hard.

Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

I suppose it should say 'It is evident to those who are justified by faith in Christ'. Or 'It is evident to those who have tried to be sinless before God'.

Apparently its not so evident to those who are still working at the law thinking that the Lord Jesus Christ left it for them to fulfill.
 
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Grandpa said:
Sin is not a heavy burden. Sin comes really easy.

The heavy burden is trying to be sinless by your work at the law. That is really hard.

Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

I suppose it should say 'It is evident to those who are justified by faith in Christ'. Or 'It is evident to those who have tried to be sinless before God'.

Apparently its not so evident to those who are still working at the law thinking that the Lord Jesus Christ left it for them to fulfill.
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You are repeating yourself...again.
Just show me the scripture which supports your conclusion.
 
BibletruthSOP said:
Paul: "we (included himself) shall all stand at the judgement seat of God".
Everyone will be judged. This is clear bible teaching. For example, 1 Peter 4:17 "For the time is come that judgement must begin at the house of God : and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?"
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Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. (Romans 1:16)

The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed, a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation or a quest to obtain sinless perfection in this lifetime as a prerequisite for salvation.
 
preston39 said:
You are repeating yourself...again.
Just show me the scripture which supports your conclusion.
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Acts 15:5-10
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
 
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mailmandan said:
Since the Old Covenant has been made obsolete, does this leave us with no moral direction? Absolutely not. God has made the Old Covenant obsolete to "put legally into place" the New Covenant (2 Corinthians 3:6-9; Hebrews 8:6-13).
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Hebrews 8 ?

HEBREWS 8:7-13 (KJV)
[7] For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
[8] For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
[9] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
[10] For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
[11] And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
[12] For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
[13] In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Verse 8 – Everytime someone says we are to keep the 10 commandments {including Gods sabbath day} those who wish to make void Gods law claim that covenant was givin to Israel and not to the Gentiles. Read verse 8. The Word clearly says that this covenant was givin to the whole house of Israel. Not a gentile mentioned anywhere. Why’s that?
 
JEREMIAH 16 [14] Therefore, BEHOLD, THE DAYS COME, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be said, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt; [15] But, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers.

Behold, the days come! Has verse 15 come to pass? Has this prophecy been fulfilled. Nope

JEREMIAH 23 [5] BEHOLD, THE DAYS COME, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. [6] In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. [7] Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt; [8] But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.

Behold, the days come! Has this prophecy been fulfilled. Nope. Not yet

JEREMIAH 33 [14] BEHOLD, THE DAYS COME, saith the LORD, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah. [15] In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. [16] IN THOSE DAYS SHALL JUDAH BE SAVED, AND JERUSALEM SHALL DWELL SAFELY: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness.

Behold, the days come! Is Jerusalem dwelling safely? Has this prophecy been fulfilled. Nope

JEREMIAH 31 [31] BEHOLD, THE DAYS COME, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: [32] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: [33] But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; AFTER THOSE DAYS, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. [34] AND THEY SHALL TEACH NO MORE EVERY MAN HIS NEIGHBOUR, AND EVERY MAN HIS BROTHER, SAYING, KNOW THE LORD: FOR THEY SHALL ALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM UNTO THE GREATEST of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Behold, the days come! Has this prophecy been fulfilled. Does EVERYONE know the Lord? Nope

HEBREWS 8 [8] For finding fault with them, he saith, BEHOLD, THE DAYS COME, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: [9] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. [10] For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel AFTER THOSE DAYS, saith the Lord; I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MIND, AND WRITE THEM IN THEIR HEARTS: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: [11] And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. [12] For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. [13] In that he saith, A NEW COVENANT, HE HATH MADE THE FIRST OLD. NOW THAT WHICH DECAYETH AND WAXETH OLD IS READY TO VANISH AWAY.

Behold the days come! AFTER THOSE DAYS.....! Why do the many believe this scripture has been fulfilled? If “behold the days come” has not yet arrived, surely “after those days” has not yet arrived.
 
Grandpa said:
Acts 15:5-10
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
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Does not support your contention.
 
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