U
UnderGrace
Guest
"And so" will have to wait....til another day....but I will not forgot
UnderGandy
srh???
Speaking in Tongues: Its Origins [Ancient and Modern], Purpose, and Power
- Thread starter MadHermit
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"And so" will have to wait....til another day....but I will not forgot
UnderGandy
srh???
7
7seasrekeyed
Guest
well which god are you saying good bye with then?
certainly not the one in the Bible
you were caught, like all your friends here who continue to mock what they do not have and so they say it is not longer valid and probably because of the mockery they cannot obtain unless they would humble themselves, unable to answer why you thought Jesus should speak to a woman about tongues when Pentecost had not yet happened
Jesus offered eternal life and He still does. those who have accepted His gift and who pursue life in Him understand completely while the rest scratch at a mirror and do not understand so they mock
7
7seasrekeyed
Guest
if he had not witnessed them, how would he know the Corinthians needed correction?
do you actually read your Bible now and then?
cheerio
Another interesting point that Paul makes.
(1 Cor 14:11 If then I do not know the meaning of the language, I will be to the one who speaks a barbarian, and the one who speaks will be a barbarian to me.)
It would seem that Paul is speaking of actual language, not some sort of "angel speak".
We can understand he is speaking of the language of a "barbarian" by noting the Greek (Strongs G915) usage in Acts as natives to Melita.
(Acts 28:2 The natives showed us extraordinary kindness; for because of the rain that had set in and because of the cold, they kindled a fire and received us all.)
(1 Cor 14:11 If then I do not know the meaning of the language, I will be to the one who speaks a barbarian, and the one who speaks will be a barbarian to me.)
It would seem that Paul is speaking of actual language, not some sort of "angel speak".
We can understand he is speaking of the language of a "barbarian" by noting the Greek (Strongs G915) usage in Acts as natives to Melita.
(Acts 28:2 The natives showed us extraordinary kindness; for because of the rain that had set in and because of the cold, they kindled a fire and received us all.)
In the "spirit" is old English for by his "breath" actually...... and the mysteries just means that if someone does not know the language it is a mystery.
It is unknown
Thanks for that. The breath of life interpreted through the words of life.
God is the interpreter he gave sounds and made them into words. Its like he said to Moses when he questioned God's ability to send the right man . The Holy Spirit replied to him Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the Lord?
The Lord sent out Moses with Christ's words likened as the work of our unseen father working with the Son and put prophecy in Aarons mouth to typify our high priest, Christ.. The same Spirit of faith working at Pentecost with Peter, like Arron the Holy Spirit put his interpretation and interpreted it in all the language nations that were there.... all understanding the work God was preforming in them to both will and perform His good eternal purpose .The sign having its foundation in Isaiah of God mocking those who refuse to hear prophecy in any tongue as evidence they have no faith to believe God and therefore no faith that could please God.
It is the same role of a prophet priest today performs sent out into the world with the gospel of light his inspired tongues . The sign that seems to have been turned upside down from a curse to a blessing confirms unbelief... not belief (Faith) .There simply is no outward sign assigned to represent those who will hear the word of God and believe. No sign gifts. Spiritual as unseen gifts yes . We have a living hope in respect to our new bodies we continue to walk after that hope, hope that surpasses all human hope the peace of God with God. .
And Moses said unto the Lord, O my Lord, I am not eloquent, neither heretofore, nor since thou hast spoken unto thy servant: but I am slow of speech, and of a slow tongue.And the Lord said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the Lord? Now therefore go, and I will be with thy mouth, and teach thee what thou shalt say. And he said, O my Lord, send, I pray thee, by the hand of him whom thou wilt send. And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Moses, and he said, Is not Aaron the Levite thy brother? I know that he can speak well. And also, behold, he cometh forth to meet thee: and when he seeth thee, he will be glad in his heart.And thou shalt speak unto him, and put words in his mouth: and I will be with thy mouth, and with his mouth, and will teach you what ye shall do. And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people: and he shall be, even he shall be to thee instead of a mouth, and thou shalt be to him instead of God.Exodus 4:10-16
If we use the sign to confirm someone has spoke and the person has heard the interpretation called tongues then its loses the effect that God had indented to use...., mock the unbelief of mankind as sign to the world to believe..Him not seen
It is unknown
Thanks for that. The breath of life interpreted through the words of life.
God is the interpreter he gave sounds and made them into words. Its like he said to Moses when he questioned God's ability to send the right man . The Holy Spirit replied to him Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the Lord?
The Lord sent out Moses with Christ's words likened as the work of our unseen father working with the Son and put prophecy in Aarons mouth to typify our high priest, Christ.. The same Spirit of faith working at Pentecost with Peter, like Arron the Holy Spirit put his interpretation and interpreted it in all the language nations that were there.... all understanding the work God was preforming in them to both will and perform His good eternal purpose .The sign having its foundation in Isaiah of God mocking those who refuse to hear prophecy in any tongue as evidence they have no faith to believe God and therefore no faith that could please God.
It is the same role of a prophet priest today performs sent out into the world with the gospel of light his inspired tongues . The sign that seems to have been turned upside down from a curse to a blessing confirms unbelief... not belief (Faith) .There simply is no outward sign assigned to represent those who will hear the word of God and believe. No sign gifts. Spiritual as unseen gifts yes . We have a living hope in respect to our new bodies we continue to walk after that hope, hope that surpasses all human hope the peace of God with God. .
And Moses said unto the Lord, O my Lord, I am not eloquent, neither heretofore, nor since thou hast spoken unto thy servant: but I am slow of speech, and of a slow tongue.And the Lord said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the Lord? Now therefore go, and I will be with thy mouth, and teach thee what thou shalt say. And he said, O my Lord, send, I pray thee, by the hand of him whom thou wilt send. And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Moses, and he said, Is not Aaron the Levite thy brother? I know that he can speak well. And also, behold, he cometh forth to meet thee: and when he seeth thee, he will be glad in his heart.And thou shalt speak unto him, and put words in his mouth: and I will be with thy mouth, and with his mouth, and will teach you what ye shall do. And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people: and he shall be, even he shall be to thee instead of a mouth, and thou shalt be to him instead of God.Exodus 4:10-16
If we use the sign to confirm someone has spoke and the person has heard the interpretation called tongues then its loses the effect that God had indented to use...., mock the unbelief of mankind as sign to the world to believe..Him not seen
7
7seasrekeyed
Guest
"azamzimtoti, post: 3899685, member: 283097"]Another interesting point that Paul makes.
(1 Cor 14:11 If then I do not know the meaning of the language, I will be to the one who speaks a barbarian, and the one who speaks will be a barbarian to me.)
It would seem that Paul is speaking of actual language, not some sort of "angel speak".
yes is he is actually. but you folks keep denying it
We can understand he is speaking of the language of a "barbarian" by noting the Greek (Strongs G915) usage in Acts as natives to Melita.
(Acts 28:2 The natives showed us extraordinary kindness; for because of the rain that had set in and because of the cold, they kindled a fire and received us all.)
14 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit,especially prophecy. 2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue[a] does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit.
3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. 4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesiesedifies the church.
5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues,[b]but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues,[c] unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.
(1 Cor 14:11 If then I do not know the meaning of the language, I will be to the one who speaks a barbarian, and the one who speaks will be a barbarian to me.)
yes is he is actually. but you folks keep denying it
We can understand he is speaking of the language of a "barbarian" by noting the Greek (Strongs G915) usage in Acts as natives to Melita.
(Acts 28:2 The natives showed us extraordinary kindness; for because of the rain that had set in and because of the cold, they kindled a fire and received us all.)
14 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit,especially prophecy. 2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue[a] does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit.
3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. 4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesiesedifies the church.
5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues,[b]but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues,[c] unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.
Spirit is "breath/air" by definition in both Hebrew (ruwach wind; by resemblance breath) and Greek = ( pneuma, a current of air, i.e. breath (blast))
I was raised in a community that had the gift of tongues and was fortunate to see through that community what it was like in a very pure innocent form, I also have had the opportunity to see it used improperly.
Now when I say improperly I don't mean as it sounds, let me explain.
From what I was taught about the gift of tongues, one among many of the gifts, is that it really is one of consolation. Because you are invoking the holy spirit and the holy spirit cannot be controlled it is quite obvious generally when those who think they are having the gift of tongues are not in fact having it at all, then it becomes this ego thing. You know it because it feels off, like overdone and you can feel the focus is less on God and more on that person. So knowing when the spirit is moving through you and when he is not is a big factor here. And it is not something demanded, just as the holy spirit himself cannot be demanded. The gift of tongues I have been told and understand is a way to praise God when words are no longer enough. It's something deep within yourself that comes out and comes out in another language. Often as one phrase or word. And it's purpose is to praise God. I have many stories in my community with those that prayed in tongues and had others present in different places and different times say, your speaking my language and are astounded.
Now I think people assume that it belongs to the gift of prophecy or understanding or vision but that is not true. As st paul said this is one he wished everyone to have. It really is a beautiful form of prayer that seems to resonate from the heart. I too speak in tongues and I believe I am simply saying AMEN over and over again but I'm not sure what language I'm speaking though.
The gifts are there I believe not so much to demand from God consolation but a moment of consolation from God that we are not alone. Often when we are downcast or carrying heavy burdens it is a beautiful gift to receive through these gifts the consolation of the knowledge that we are not alone. I do understand the concern for those thinking that someone could seek these out for egocentric purposes but the wonderful thing about these gifts and the holy spirit is that it's quite obvious when it is misused and generally when those moments have happened in our community there usually is this awkward silence. And after the meeting someone will approach that person and talk to them to understand. But not in a bad way. It's like learning how the Holy Spirit works you can't demand his cooperation but open your heart to allow him to return to God the gift that his is giving.
As I said before when it's done properly I have seen it in a pure and innocent way of just focusing on God and giving Him everything you've got. When the focus is on God and everyone else' focus is the same, it truly is a beautiful thing.
Now when I say improperly I don't mean as it sounds, let me explain.
From what I was taught about the gift of tongues, one among many of the gifts, is that it really is one of consolation. Because you are invoking the holy spirit and the holy spirit cannot be controlled it is quite obvious generally when those who think they are having the gift of tongues are not in fact having it at all, then it becomes this ego thing. You know it because it feels off, like overdone and you can feel the focus is less on God and more on that person. So knowing when the spirit is moving through you and when he is not is a big factor here. And it is not something demanded, just as the holy spirit himself cannot be demanded. The gift of tongues I have been told and understand is a way to praise God when words are no longer enough. It's something deep within yourself that comes out and comes out in another language. Often as one phrase or word. And it's purpose is to praise God. I have many stories in my community with those that prayed in tongues and had others present in different places and different times say, your speaking my language and are astounded.
Now I think people assume that it belongs to the gift of prophecy or understanding or vision but that is not true. As st paul said this is one he wished everyone to have. It really is a beautiful form of prayer that seems to resonate from the heart. I too speak in tongues and I believe I am simply saying AMEN over and over again but I'm not sure what language I'm speaking though.
The gifts are there I believe not so much to demand from God consolation but a moment of consolation from God that we are not alone. Often when we are downcast or carrying heavy burdens it is a beautiful gift to receive through these gifts the consolation of the knowledge that we are not alone. I do understand the concern for those thinking that someone could seek these out for egocentric purposes but the wonderful thing about these gifts and the holy spirit is that it's quite obvious when it is misused and generally when those moments have happened in our community there usually is this awkward silence. And after the meeting someone will approach that person and talk to them to understand. But not in a bad way. It's like learning how the Holy Spirit works you can't demand his cooperation but open your heart to allow him to return to God the gift that his is giving.
As I said before when it's done properly I have seen it in a pure and innocent way of just focusing on God and giving Him everything you've got. When the focus is on God and everyone else' focus is the same, it truly is a beautiful thing.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Some people just do not give up. And can’t see their attitude as anything wrong.
Its sad. It is always just a select few.
U
UnderGrace
Guest
Paul's comment to the Corinthians has nothing to do with tongues. He is referring to quarrels arising regarding water baptism:
"For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name." 1 Cor 1:11-15
Also, Paul experienced tongues first hand:
"I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue." 1 Cor 14:18-19
Once a person establishes what the sign associated with tongues confirms then they can understand what tongues is and the purpose .
If the foundation of the "sign of tongues" which is not the same as the actual "working of tongues" (Prophecy, men hear God) One is used as a shadow or sign the other the substance of faith (men believe God as he gives them ears to hear what the spirit is saying). the sign identifies God mocking those who mock his word prophecy , as tongues. His interpretation in respect to God communing with all the nations of the world no longer Hebrew alone..
What if the law in regard to the tongues doctrine is destroyed (Isaiah 28)and removed from the equation what could a Christian do?
How would we know from the new testament who or what kind of "this people" represents in reference to and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
1 Corinthians 14:21In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
If we look to the foundation of the law we are given a hint to what the sign does confirm.
Isaiah 28:10-12 King James Version (KJV) For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
Is that the kind of sign that God left for the world ? A group of people making noises and its anyone's guess what they are saying.?Find someone who will give a person their own private interpretation and call that the gospel as a sign gift? To who.
Signs are designed to confirm two things .Blessings and curses .One the words of God uses signs as selected metaphors that represent the work of the gospel that follow after unseen work of someone believing .Like poison of serpents it is used to represent false prophecy as the oral traditions of men .It will not harm a believer who limits his faith to all things written in the law and the prophets. Like the faithful Bearens' in Acts they heard the preaching of Paul and the Spirit of Christ in them moved them search the scriptures daily to see if the things he was preaching were so. And signs that show a person has no faith in God called this people, yet they would not hear prophecy . The later this people is what the sign is pointing to.
2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
I want to add some additional material which gives to me the impression that Paul is writing about things such as "tongues" that he had not witnessed, as it would seem that he heard about the quarrels and that he was also writing in response to questions from the church at Corinth which likely included the practice of the spirituals including tongues.
(1 Cot 7:1 Now with regard to the issues you wrote about: "It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman." )
It would also seem they had wrote questions in regards to food:
(1 Cor 8:1 With regard to food sacrificed to idols, we know that "we all have knowledge." Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up.)
Again it would seem he is addressing question raised in their letter in regards to spirituals:
(1 Cor 12:1 With regard to spiritual gifts, brothers and sisters, I do not want you to be uninformed.)
In regards to giving:
(1 Cor 16:1 With regard to the collection for the saints, please follow the directions that I gave to the churches of Galatia)
And it would seem he had possibly written a previous letter which is not included in the NT
(1 Cor 5:9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people.)
I think there is a preponderance of evidence in the above, that in 1 Corinthians what Paul was addressing what he had not personally witnessed,
I think someone brought up Isa 28:11 which Paul mentioned in his letter in 1 Cor 14:21-22.
When Isaiah is considered in context it seems to me that the gift of tongues only served for the early church period before the Jews were destroyed and a few taken into captivity in the Roman siege.
Isaiah 28:11-16. From the NASB
Indeed, He will speak to this people
Through stammering lips and a foreign tongue,
He who said to them, “Here is rest, give rest to the weary,”
And, “Here is repose,” but they would not listen.
So the word of the LORD to them will be,
“Order on order, order on order,
Line on line, line on line,
A little here, a little there,”
That they may go and stumble backward, be broken, snared and taken captive.
Judah Is Warned
Therefore, hear the word of the LORD, O scoffers,
Who rule this people who are in Jerusalem,
Because you have said, “We have made a covenant with death,
And with Sheol we have made a pact.
The overwhelming scourge will not reach us when it passes by,
For we have made falsehood our refuge and we have concealed ourselves with deception.”
Therefore thus says the Lord GOD,
“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a tested stone,
A costly cornerstone for the foundation, firmly placed.
He who believes in it will not be disturbed.
There are a number of elements here in regards to "stammering lips and a foreign tongue".
Judah is warned, "O scoffers, Who rule this people who are in Jerusalem", "snared and taken captive", "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a tested stone".
We know that the Jews and others of the 12 tribes were living in all areas of the Roman Empire, they heard these "foreign tongues" in Acts and that this was the time that the stone (the Church of Christ his temple) was laid, "I am laying in Zion a stone, a tested stone".
(Acts 2:5-6 Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven. And when this sound occurred, the crowd came together, and were bewildered because each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language.)
When Isaiah is considered in context it seems to me that the gift of tongues only served for the early church period before the Jews were destroyed and a few taken into captivity in the Roman siege.
Isaiah 28:11-16. From the NASB
Indeed, He will speak to this people
Through stammering lips and a foreign tongue,
He who said to them, “Here is rest, give rest to the weary,”
And, “Here is repose,” but they would not listen.
So the word of the LORD to them will be,
“Order on order, order on order,
Line on line, line on line,
A little here, a little there,”
That they may go and stumble backward, be broken, snared and taken captive.
Judah Is Warned
Therefore, hear the word of the LORD, O scoffers,
Who rule this people who are in Jerusalem,
Because you have said, “We have made a covenant with death,
And with Sheol we have made a pact.
The overwhelming scourge will not reach us when it passes by,
For we have made falsehood our refuge and we have concealed ourselves with deception.”
Therefore thus says the Lord GOD,
“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a tested stone,
A costly cornerstone for the foundation, firmly placed.
He who believes in it will not be disturbed.
There are a number of elements here in regards to "stammering lips and a foreign tongue".
Judah is warned, "O scoffers, Who rule this people who are in Jerusalem", "snared and taken captive", "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a tested stone".
We know that the Jews and others of the 12 tribes were living in all areas of the Roman Empire, they heard these "foreign tongues" in Acts and that this was the time that the stone (the Church of Christ his temple) was laid, "I am laying in Zion a stone, a tested stone".
(Acts 2:5-6 Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven. And when this sound occurred, the crowd came together, and were bewildered because each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language.)
U
UnderGrace
Guest
Paul "I am able to speak more foreign languages than all of you."
This is a quote from Augustine:
(In the earliest times, the Holy Ghost fell upon them that believed: and they spoke with tongues, which they had not learned, as the Spirit gave them utterance. Acts 2:4 These were signs adapted to the time. For there behooved to be that betokening of the Holy Spirit in all tongues, to show that the Gospel of God was to run through all tongues over the whole earth. That thing was done for a betokening, and it passed away.)
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/170206.htm
(In the earliest times, the Holy Ghost fell upon them that believed: and they spoke with tongues, which they had not learned, as the Spirit gave them utterance. Acts 2:4 These were signs adapted to the time. For there behooved to be that betokening of the Holy Spirit in all tongues, to show that the Gospel of God was to run through all tongues over the whole earth. That thing was done for a betokening, and it passed away.)
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/170206.htm
U
UnderGrace
Guest
2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
That's it Garee... Christians ought live by faith and not signs...
Well there we go I have a point of agreement with Augustine...who knew
Me, I knew I knew
The division is not in respect to tribes but those who have the have of Christ's Spirit in them as born again creatures and those who do not believe in a God who reveals himself by moving men to bring His written law.... establishing who he is and what he expects of us.
The division is between believers and those who believe not. (faith and no faith) Those who were mocking God sarcastically like in Jerimiah 44 and in the end saw no evil in mocking God. And those who do hear the voice of God and believe in Him, from Him not seen .
The unbelieving Jews are used to represent a unbelieving world .The sign was not just to the Jews as if he was singling them out to be worst sinners than gentile. But again a sign against the whole world of faithless mockers .
Its the kind of people that the sign reflects as those who do not believe in God. How that turned into as it seems.... make a sound without meaning and use that as our own source of faith to confirm something?
As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the Lord, we will not hearken unto thee.But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil. Jerimiah 44: 16-17