Retire the Ten Commandments?

[BibletruthSOP]

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/sabbath-rest/ Dr Ferguson helps out Vine
..

The new covenant: Heb 8: 10 " I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts. " To have God's law in your mind is to know/understand it. To have God's law in your heart is to love it. Heb 10:16 "I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them" This is the 10 commandments God is speaking of.

And this one is really heavy : Proverbs 28:9 "He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination."

 

[BibletruthSOP]

I just try to post what scripture says, it isn't me making any personal claim. I truly think that covenants are a way God communicates with us, and God is God, so anything God does is not limited to "the" way.

One of the posters has taken after me personally and uses me to attack, I have to leave the site.

The old covenant was Israel promising "we will do" . The new covenant (actually the everlasting covenant-the gospel) is spiritual Israel (us, according to Paul) believing God will do.

 

[BibletruthSOP]

Its not that difficult once you really read that passage

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (King James Version)

This passage is often used by Christians to insist that the "moral law" is still with us today. But if you read it carefully, Jesus was actually proposing 2 different ways in which the law can be "passed" away.

1)Till heaven and earth pass away
2)Till all be fulfilled

The first has obviously not happened. But Jesus on earth has fulfilled all the law on our behalf, so the second condition has taken place.

Maybe fulfilled (filled full) for OUR example. Doesn't Satan just love the talk about getting rid of God's law. Incredible that a Grace saved Christian could even imagine such a thing...could imagine that, which was violated and required Jesus to be crucified, doesn't
matter anymore, that the transcript of God's character can be thrown out...that love can be thrown out....one can only weep for such mindsets.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

You are to follow the everlasting gospel, the same one abel, noah, Abraham, moses, Daniel, paul, john, matthew, luke, etc. followed

The same GOD that spoke In the old testament Is the same GOD that spoke the new testament and we know that GOD does not change

So then you are saying that the gospel Is the old testament and the new testament and those of us today should follow both the law and Grace?

The bible says that those that are under Grace are no longer under law.🤔☺️.

 

[Guojing]

Maybe fulfilled (filled full) for OUR example. Doesn't Satan just love the talk about getting rid of God's law. Incredible that a Grace saved Christian could even imagine such a thing...could imagine that, which was violated and required Jesus to be crucified, doesn't
matter anymore, that the transcript of God's character can be thrown out...that love can be thrown out....one can only weep for such mindsets.

Actually, like many believers with an unrenewed mind, you got it in reverse. If you understand what Paul is saying in the 2 passages below

The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 1 Corinthians 15:56

For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. (Romans 6:14)

Satan would very much prefer that believers under grace, still continue to put themselves under the Law when they are actually not under Law.

The moment believers use the Law trying to get closer to God, that act will strengthen sin in the flesh. It is only when believers believe that they are no longer under the law, then sin will not have dominion over them.

 

[mailmandan]

Wow, so there are no longer 10? so you have searched the new testament post cross to find the new testament commandments and came up with a measely 9 commandments? There are dozens and dozens and dozens and you found just 9?????? And why is it you felt it necessary to cherry pick 9 things that you can claim are = to the 9 from the old testament. Why do you make any reference at all to the old testament 10 commandments if they are abolished in the new testament???????

The OP is specifically about the 10 commandments and not what is the grand total of dozens and dozens of commandments found in the new testament. I did not say abolished, I said God has made the old covenant obsolete to "put legally into place" the new covenant (2 Corinthians 3:6-9; Hebrews 8:6-13). Sadly, there are those who have a difficult time making the transition from the old covenant into the new covenant and remain under the law. For example, a former member of Christian Chat who was SDA used to blatantly teach salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works" which is a perversion of the gospel. (Galatians 1:6-9)

 

[mailmandan]

Just a little insight by way of questions re Col 2. Vs. 14...what is the handwriting of ordinances? Verse 17 refers to the things in vs. 16 as shadows of things to come, so it had to be referring to the ceremonial sabbaths (passover, etc.) which referenced/foreshadowed Christ (the lamb) to come. But the 7th day sabbath is part of the 10 commandments as given on Sinai and the 10 commandments were never considered a shadow of things to come. And specifically the 4th commandment or 7th day sabbath is a memorial (not a shadow which always represents a future event) of creation, a past event, given before sin entered, and so can never be thought of as a shadow. Much more, but these are interesting to consider.

Paul is not merely talking about "ceremonial sabbaths." The words "ton sabbaton" or "sabbath days"; are the same words translated "Sabbath day" in Exodus 20:8 in the Septuagint (the Jewish translation of the Old Testament into Greek).

Paul said, "Let no one judge you regarding a,

festival - yearly Sabbaths,
a new moon - monthly Sabbaths,
or a Sabbath day - weekly Sabbaths (or if you wish Sabbath days)"
CHRIST, he goes on to say is the "Substance", these things were shadows.

When this passage is compared with Galatians 4:9 an obvious connection in Paul's teaching is revealed: "But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? You observe days and months and seasons and years."

Verse 10 clearly states, "you observe...",

days (weekly Sabbaths, corresponding to "Sabbath days in Colossians 2)
months (new moons, corresponding to "a new moon" in Colossians 2)
seasons (the 7 feasts, corresponding to "festivals" in Colossians 2)
and years (the sabbatical year and the 50th year of Jubilee)

Obviously Paul is speaking about the observances of all Jewish holy days, including the weekly Sabbath.

When God wants to refer to the whole system of Jewish holy days, rather than name them all, He refers to the yearly, monthly and weekly as representing the whole system. Yet (Seventh Day Adventists for example) would argue that the Sabbath Day of Colossians 2:16 is the years Sabbaths. But yearly Sabbaths were already referred to in Colossians 2:16 as "festivals". The "Year, Month, Week" pattern is so well established in the Old Testament, that Colossians 2:16 must also refer to the weekly Sabbath.

Yearly, monthly, weekly pattern proves it is the weekly sabbath

1 Chronicles 23:31 - Yearly (fixed festivals), monthly (new moons), weekly (Sabbaths)

2 Chronicles 2:4 - Yearly (appointed feasts), monthly (new moons), weekly (Sabbaths)

2 Chronicles 8:13 - Yearly (annual feasts), monthly (new moons), weekly (Sabbaths)

2 Chronicles 31:3 - Yearly (fixed festivals), monthly (new moons), weekly (Sabbaths)

Nehemiah 10:33 - Yearly (appointed times), monthly (new moon), weekly (Sabbaths)

Isaiah 1:13-14 - Yearly (appointed feasts), monthly (new moon), weekly (Sabbath)

Ezekiel 45:17 - Yearly (appointed feasts), monthly (new moons), weekly (Sabbaths)

Ezek 46:1-11 - Yearly (appointed feasts), monthly (new moons), weekly (Sabbath)

Hosea 2:11 - Yearly (festal assemblies), monthly (new moons), weekly (Sabbaths)

Galatians 4:10 - years, months, days

Colossians 2:16 - festival, new moon, Sabbath day

Although God's rest on the seventh day (Genesis 2:3) did foreshadow a future Sabbath law, there is no Biblical record of the Sabbath before the children of Israel left the land of Egypt. *Nowhere in scripture is there any hint that Sabbath keeping was practiced from Adam to Moses. The word "Sabbath" first appears in Exodus 16:23 - Then he said to them, “This is what the Lord has said: ‘Tomorrow is a Sabbath rest, a holy Sabbath to the Lord. Bake what you will bake today, and boil what you will boil; and lay up for yourselves all that remains, to be kept until morning. Sabbath keeping with all it's rules and regulations, was part of a covenant with Israel (Exodus 16:23, 29, 31:12-18; 35:1-3; Leviticus 19:30; 23:2-3, 32; Numbers 15:32-36; 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13; Amos 8:5; Nehemiah 10:31) that is not binding on The Church/Christians in the New Testament.

 

[mailmandan]

The new covenant: Heb 8:10 "I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts." To have God's law in your mind is to know/understand it. To have God's law in your heart is to love it. Heb 10:16 "I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them" This is the 10 commandments God is speaking of.

And this one is really heavy: Proverbs 28:9 "He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination."

So the new covenant for you is basically the 10 commandments from the old covenant re-packaged? So the 10 commandments from the old testament including keeping the Sabbath day with all it's specific rules and regulations is what God is talking about in regards to writing His laws in their mind and hearts? So why is there no command in the New Testament for Christians to keep the Sabbath day holy?

If Sabbath day observances are still required, so would the burnt offerings which went along with them (Leviticus 19:30; 23:2-3; Numbers 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13). So no kindling a fire in any of your dwellings on the sabbath (Exodus 35:3). Every man must remain in his place on the sabbath (Exodus 16:29). No trading (Amos 8:5). No marketing (Nehemiah 10:31; 13:15,19).

These were commanded by God to Israel (Exodus 35:1).

If the seventh day Sabbath is still in affect, then why do not the Sabbatarians seek to obey ALL that the LORD commanded instead of only keeping part of it?

If the Sabbath day laws were still in effect today, then according to Exodus 31:12-18; 35:1-3; and Numbers 15:32-36, anyone who profaned the Sabbath was put to death and any person who does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from his people.

Who is going to enforce that? The Jewish synagogue? The Seventh day Adventist church? The Government? We do not live under a theocratic state as ancient Israel did under the old covenant, no Sabbatarian can live consistently under these Mosaic regulations.

This one is really heavy: *2 Corinthians 3:6 - who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory.

"No one pours new wine into old wineskins. If he does, the new wine will burst the skins, the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, new wine must be poured into new wineskins." (Luke 5:37-38). The old and new covenants do not mix.

 

[mailmandan]

You are to follow the everlasting gospel, the same one abel, noah, Abraham, moses, Daniel, paul, john, matthew, luke, etc. followed

So what do YOU believe the gospel IS and what do YOU believe it means to BELIEVE the gospel? (Romans 1:16)

 

[Grandpa]

The atonement is not complete. The sacrificial element of the atonement is complete. The intercessory high priestly ministry of Jesus in the Heavenly Sanctuary Most Holy Place is on going presently. And the judgement phase of the atonement also has yet to be completed.

I do understand that many think of Jesus sacrifice on the cross being the atonement , but it is actually not the atonement in whole, it is the sacrificial element or part of the atonement (at-one-ment).

For those who have come to Christ the Atonement is complete.

For those who have not come to Christ it would APPEAR as if there might be things left to fulfill.

So its really all about faith.

Those with faith in Christ believe He fulfilled all the Law and Prophets like He said He would.

Those with no faith don't believe Christs words.

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

I know the above argument. There is a deeper principle at work here, and it is the Kingdom and
God's will. Jesus to be the sacrifice of atonement had to be the perfect lamb without defect.

Paul argued that through walking in the Spirit, we became slaves of righteousness, loving everyone,
and thereby fulfilling the law as Jesus fulfilled the law. And because we are no longer law breakers
the law has no power over us.

The principle that Jesus is using is simple, with a changed heart, cleansed and purified, in dwelling
Holy Spirit, Gods word working through us, we become Children of Heaven able to walk like Jesus.

This is the aspiration of the Holiness movement shown within the Nazarene church denomination.

Now if one says the moral law is defunct and irrelevant, done away with, the question is why?
Why would people of love and the Kingdom break moral law? How does loving everyone mean it
is alright to sin? How would people who know Gods will and His heart, want to sin or compromise
with it, knowing it destroys our spiritual life and our communion with God?

So as a natural outflow of our knowing Christ comes our walk in righteousness.
As the prophecy says, His law is written on their minds and hearts.

Can a person be moral and not accept/BELIEVE In the WORD of GOD?
When you say,why Is the moral law done away with?
The bible says that those under law shall do all that's In the law,so then whatever part of the law a person wants to keep,they would need to keep ALL the rest of the law also and without blemish.At ANY point the law Is broken,then,the whole law has been offended.

JESUS,the perfect sacrifice without blemish fulfilled the law and with HIM shedding HIS blood on the cross HE satisfied the demand of the law for those who broke the law that HE had mercy on and died on the cross for ALL who because of the weakness of their flesh can't keep the law perfectly.

JESUS made the Ultimate sacrifice,HE gave up HIS life and GOD who loves righteousness accepted HIS sacrifice and JESUS started a new testament,now It's NO LONGER about trying to keep the law which Is against man because of the weakness of the flesh but It Is now about believing,believing the WORD of GOD.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

The atonement is not complete. The sacrificial element of the atonement is complete. The intercessory high priestly ministry of Jesus in the Heavenly Sanctuary Most Holy Place is on going presently.And the judgement phase of the atonement also has yet to be completed.

I do understand that many think of Jesus sacrifice on the cross being the atonement , but it is actually not the atonement in whole, it is the sacrificial element or part of the atonement (at-one-ment).

why do some try to relate with GOD by trying to say,this Is the way a man sees things so this must be how GOD sees things. GOD Is A SPIRIT.
Man Is carnal.

When you say the judgement phase of the atonement has yet to be completed and we know that JESUS who had mercy on man already took the penalty for any who brake the law died on the cross for mankind are you talking about the flesh/body to be redeemed later?

 

[seed_time_harvest]

as Paul said, we shall all stand before the judgement seat of Christ

I think you are talking about rewards done In the body.

 

[BibletruthSOP]

The same GOD that spoke In the old testament Is the same GOD that spoke the new testament and we know that GOD does not change

So then you are saying that the gospel Is the old testament and the new testament and those of us today should follow both the law and Grace?

The bible says that those that are under Grace are no longer under law.🤔☺️.

I know some folks think that God has had two different methods of salvation, one in the old testament era and one in the new. This is not so. There has always been only one gospel (everlasting gospel). Think Abraham, think Jesus, etc. I keep emphasizing that if one actually believes just one verse...."the wages of sin is death"...it is impossible at the same time to believe there is some kind of salvation method that is of man or partly of man. Anyone who thinks that a person was saved by works in the old testament does not understand scripture. Salvation was by grace through faith the same as now. The deadly problem with OSAS is that if one claims to "believe", that one can go on sinning and the wages of sin is no longer eternal death, but rather something else, like chastisement and who knows what else. They have no sense of the cost of sin or that, if one should sin, that sin has to be confessed and repented of (repentance is a turning away from sin......a true heart sorrow for the very sin itself) so it can be forgiven and that one cleansed from all unrighteousness. 1 John 4 : 9. There is only one gospel, then and now...its called the everlasting gospel. Calvary alone can reveal the terrible enormity of sin. And that's one thing Satan would have us not realize. And then we have those teaching that if you claim your saved, sin can in no way affect that condition. wow. Just WOW

 

[BibletruthSOP]

why do some try to relate with GOD by trying to say,this Is the way a man sees things so this must be how GOD sees things. GOD Is A SPIRIT.
Man Is carnal.

When you say the judgement phase of the atonement has yet to be completed and we know that JESUS who had mercy on man already took the penalty for any who brake the law died on the cross for mankind are you talking about the flesh/body to be redeemed later?

Paul: "we (included himself) shall all stand at the judgement seat of God".
Everyone will be judged. This is clear bible teaching. For example, 1 Peter 4:17 "For the time is come that judgement must begin at the house of God : and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?"

 

[BibletruthSOP]

Actually, like many believers with an unrenewed mind, you got it in reverse. If you understand what Paul is saying in the 2 passages below

The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 1 Corinthians 15:56

For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. (Romans 6:14)

Satan would very much prefer that believers under grace, still continue to put themselves under the Law when they are actually not under Law.

The moment believers use the Law trying to get closer to God, that act will strengthen sin in the flesh. It is only when believers believe that they are no longer under the law, then sin will not have dominion over them.

I have never heard of anyone trying to get closer to God by keeping the law...that would imply they think there is salvation merit in doing something it is impossible for them to do. Sounds like a strawman argument used by someone who is OSAS oriented and cant face the fact that the 10 commandments are Gods standard of right and wrong and wishes they were not.
You really do not understand what being under the law means. To say the law is abolished is to say there is no such thing as sin. There is only one being in all the universe that wants us to believe the 10 commandments are abolished, or that 1 or more of the 10 commandments is no longer applicable, or to believe "don't you know you cant stop sinning anyway, Jesus or no Jesus?"

I think you know who that personage that is.

 

[GodIsSpiritGodIsHoly]

God is love, and the fulfillment of the law is love.
When Christ walked the earth, he fulfilled the entire law, since he is indeed love!

King James Bible Galatians 5:14
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Every man outside of Christ will stand condemned.
Every man that commits sin will be held accountable at the day of judgement.
Christ fulfilled the law.
The Godly sorrow leads a man to repentance from the evil deeds, done towards self and others.
When one comes to faith in Christ, he/she is set free from the bondage of sin, and from doing the works of darkness -
and fulfill the law by faith, since faith works by love - and love is the fulfillment of the law.

Christ in us, - love in us.
Walk by love, and not by the flesh.
There is complete freedom in Jesus Christ, and his work at the cross.

Set your eyes on Jesus.

 

[BibletruthSOP]

Thankyou,
Would you explain how the 4th commandment of the 10 can be considered a shadow of things to come when it was specifically given as a memorial and pointed back to creation and not to pointing something out in the future.

Also,

So what do YOU believe the gospel IS and what do YOU believe it means to BELIEVE the gospel? (Romans 1:16)

I hope your looking for a succinct answer, so I shall say it this way (realizing it can be said in different words) : the gospel is the good news of a savior (messiah; Jesus) who came to show the true character of love of the Father, who came to save humanity from the bondage (no strength to resist) and curse (eternal death) of sin, and who came to destroy the works of Satan (render Satan's power ineffective in the life of a believer), and that He was 100% successful in all of that, and for those who believe, give eternal life.

I could say it in many different ways, but that's a nice overview, don't you think?

 

[BibletruthSOP]

I think Deade is probably referring to the Gospel of the Kingdom when he used the term "the real gospel". He does not accept that, since the Jews rejected it by the end of Acts. the GOK has been postponed until after the Rapture,

In short, he interprets what Paul said in Romans 9-11 differently.

Your house is left unto you desolate were the words of Jesus to the Jews. Nothing in scripture about a future Jewish Gospel of the Kingdom. All about things like that in the old testament were conditional and when the Jews crucified their messiah, that was it, and the Gospel went to the Gentiles. In God's sight, Israel---spiritual Israel---are believing Christians (see Paul who is very plain spoken re this). What would God be trying to do/teach by having modern day Jews in Israel build a temple and start sacrificing animals again....the lamb of God has come-Jesus. Whats the purpose of all this Jerusalem/temple/temple sacrifices, etc. that the dispensationalists are believing? How could such things be Gospel enhancing in any way. Just curious.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

I know some folks think that God has had two different methods of salvation, one in the old testament era and one in the new. This is not so. There has always been only one gospel (everlasting gospel). Think Abraham, think Jesus, etc. I keep emphasizing that if one actually believes just one verse...."the wages of sin is death"...it is impossible at the same time to believe there is some kind of salvation method that is of man or partly of man. Anyone who thinks that a person was saved by works in the old testament does not understand scripture. Salvation was by grace through faith the same as now. The deadly problem with OSAS is that if one claims to "believe", that one can go on sinning and the wages of sin is no longer eternal death, but rather something else, like chastisement and who knows what else. They have no sense of the cost of sin or that, if one should sin, that sin has to be confessed and repented of (repentance is a turning away from sin......a true heart sorrow for the very sin itself) so it can be forgiven and that one cleansed from all unrighteousness. 1 John 4 : 9. There is only one gospel, then and now...its called the everlasting gospel. Calvary alone can reveal the terrible enormity of sin. And that's one thing Satan would have us not realize. And then we have those teaching that if you claim your saved, sin can in no way affect that condition. wow. Just WOW

I know that It sounds ridiculous that a person that has gotten saved would still be saved If they were sinning as much as any other worldly person but you have to remember that It was the Born again christians spirit that was created perfect and a person's performance will have no effect on GODs workmanship,but the thing to know Is that the Born again Christian Is GODs workmanship created In CHRIST unto good works.
Also Every man that has this hope of eternal life with GOD seeks to purify their body/mind to match their perfectly made truly righteous spirits