A NON-CHARISMATIC UNDERSTANDING OF TONGUES

[Noose]

Your insults are inappropriate. I understand what Scripture clearly says... that they SPOKE in tongues. Plus, the people present to hear the disciples were themselves Jews who happened to live in areas that spoke other langauges. So it was Jews with Jews. You'd do well to take the cessationist blinders off when you read Scripture.

Acts 2:
7Astounded and amazed, they asked, “Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? 8How is it then that each of us hears them in his own native language? 9Parthians, Medes, and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,a 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome, 11both Jews and converts to Judaism; Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!”

12Astounded and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”

It doesn't matter whether there were Jews present or not, the miracle was for the non Jews who were astounded.

Sorry if you felt insulted.

 

[Absolutely]

A NON-CHARISMATIC "UNDERSTANDING" OF TONGUES

Another good one is a non charismatic "understanding" of the baptism in the Holy Ghost

Eventually,through elimination,we have mental salvation with discussion over "salvation"that nobody can get on the same page with.
(Because mentally it escapes them,that salvation is a person,not a doctrine.)

So,their starting place is once again from a misconception propelled sideways....A circular desert.

Their entire deal ,including their starting place,and teachers,is actually based on misconception. Seeing words in a bible, looking to mental non anointed preachers, but ignoring the author and his power.

 

[Noose]

The idea behind self edification falls in two ways:
1. Self edification is self seeking which can not be the way of love; putting others first.

2. Edification goes hand in hand with understanding. If tongues MUST be interpreted for the church to be edified through understanding, how can one claim self edification without understanding? If there's such a thing as self edification without understanding, then the church can also be edified in the same manner without interpretation and understanding and understanding.

If i pray for healing and get the healing, then i can easily relate it to my prayer, but if i tell God "wuhfbkjkeksdlksvk jufiswsw" and the get healed, how can i relate the meaningless words to my healing?

 

[Noose]

Cessation
The understanding from the scripture is simple; the gifts ceased, all of 'em.

1 Cor 13:
1If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a ringing gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have absolute faith so as to move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and exult in the surrender of my body,a but have not love, I gain nothing.

4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no account of wrongs. 6Love takes no pleasure in evil, but rejoices in the truth. 7It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be restrained; where there is knowledge, it will be dismissed. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when the perfect comes, the partial passes away.

11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I set aside childish ways. 12Now we see but a dim reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13And now these three remain: faith, hope, and love; but the greatest of these is love.

The gifts were for the establishment of the church and they were partial. The church was established and the perfect came. The perfect means perfect love which means being together as one church or the body of Christ. not one person there with knowledge and another here with tongues, the other with prophesy and another with healing. Perfect love means we are all one and not individuals with different gifts:

1 John 4:
7Beloved, let us love one another, because love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

9This is how God’s love was revealed among us: God sent His one and only Son into the world, so that we might live through Him. 10And love consists in this: not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

11Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God remains in us, and His love is perfected in us. 13By this we know that we remain in Him, and He in us: He has given us of His Spirit. 14And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent His Son to be the Savior of the world.

15If anyone confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16And we have come to know and believe the love that God has for us. God is love; whoever abides in love abides in God, and God in him. 17In this way, love has been perfected among us, so that we may have confidence on the day of judgment; for in this world we are just like Him.

John is simply saying, love for one another is knowing God and knowing God is the perfect that causes the partial aka the gifts of the church to cease.

conclusion; The gifts ceased, all of 'em.

 

[RickyZ]

The idea behind self edification falls in two ways:
1. Self edification is self seeking which can not be the way of love; putting others first.

2. Edification goes hand in hand with understanding. If tongues MUST be interpreted for the church to be edified through understanding, how can one claim self edification without understanding? If there's such a thing as self edification without understanding, then the church can also be edified in the same manner without interpretation and understanding and understanding.

If i pray for healing and get the healing, then i can easily relate it to my prayer, but if i tell God "wuhfbkjkeksdlksvk jufiswsw" and the get healed, how can i relate the meaningless words to my healing?

Well I started to answer this for you but I realize it would be just a waste of time.

 

[RickyZ]

Just to get a measure on the blaspheme thing, I started a poll.... https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/blaspheme-of-the-holy-spirit.184328/

 

[Noose]

Well I started to answer this for you but I realize it would be just a waste of time.

Why? you can do it for the benefit of others.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The blasphemy of the spirit question has been answered.

 

[Noose]

Just to get a measure on the blaspheme thing, I started a poll.... https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/blaspheme-of-the-holy-spirit.184328/

I wish you approached this with an open mind and i also wish you pray for understanding on this.

I have always said, the spirit of fear is never from God and the fear that has been imparted in people spells doom because through fear, they can not engage in truth.
I work in 100% Islamic country, i know most of the things about their beliefs and i have realized the fear for hell fire put in them shuts them out completely. Discussion or even the thought that Jesus is God is guaranteed hell fire and they talk of the 7th hell where fire is the hottest.

in the same manner, your have a lot of fear when it comes to discussing the gifts of the holy spirit to the extent that you are willing to close yourself in that room and never engage in truth.

1 John 4:
17In this way, love has been perfected among us, so that we may have confidence on the day of judgment; for in this world we are just like Him.

18There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear involves punishment. The one who fears has not been perfected in love. 19We love because He first loved us.

 

[Noose]

It is the same fear that drives people to speak meaningless words and attribute it to God hoping that it was what the Apostles taught.
Speaking from experience because i have been there; i spoke in 'tongues' and claimed that it was God yet i didn't understand nothing and those that heard me understood nothing at all.

 

[RickyZ]

I wish you approached this with an open mind and i also wish you pray for understanding on this.

I have always said, the spirit of fear is never from God and the fear that has been imparted in people spells doom because through fear, they can not engage in truth.
I work in 100% Islamic country, i know most of the things about their beliefs and i have realized the fear for hell fire put in them shuts them out completely. Discussion or even the thought that Jesus is God is guaranteed hell fire and they talk of the 7th hell where fire is the hottest.

in the same manner, your have a lot of fear when it comes to discussing the gifts of the holy spirit to the extent that you are willing to close yourself in that room and never engage in truth.

1 John 4:
17In this way, love has been perfected among us, so that we may have confidence on the day of judgment; for in this world we are just like Him.

18There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear involves punishment. The one who fears has not been perfected in love. 19We love because He first loved us.

I do have an open mind. That's why I posted the survey, to get a feel for where others stand on the issue. Fact finding, not issue pushing.

As for the other, 1 Cor 14 says to ask for interpretation of your private prayers. So I asked for that. 9 out of 10 times, I don't know the exact words being spoken, by my mind understands the subject of the prayer.

 

[RickyZ]

It is the same fear that drives people to speak meaningless words and attribute it to God hoping that it was what the Apostles taught.
Speaking from experience because i have been there; i spoke in 'tongues' and claimed that it was God yet i didn't understand nothing and those that heard me understood nothing at all.

If you were praying in an assembly, yes there should have been an interpretation. If you were praying privately, there shouldn't have been others around to be confused by it. That is between you and God.

 

[Dino246]

No one ever said edification is bad, just like love, it is always good until it is applied on self.
Love for self is not love at all, love is about others and Paul has given us the principles in which the gifts operate the greatest being love:

1 Cor 13:13 And now these three remain: faith, hope, and love;but the greatest of these is love.

And as I said, you can only arrive at that conclusion if it was the place you started.

 

[Dino246]

Acts 2:
7Astounded and amazed, they asked, “Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? 8How is it then that each of us hears them in his own native language? 9Parthians, Medes, and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,a 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome, 11both Jews and converts to Judaism; Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!”

12Astounded and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”

It doesn't matter whether there were Jews present or not, the miracle was for the non Jews who were astounded.

Sorry if you felt insulted.

Acts 2:5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken.

They were Jews, not Gentiles. Your position is unsupportable.

 

[Noose]

If you were praying in an assembly, yes there should have been an interpretation. If you were praying privately, there shouldn't have been others around to be confused by it. That is between you and God.

The modern phenomenon is not genuine because:

1. It is spoken in public without any interpretation. Even if there's an interpretation, there's no two independent witnesses to confirm

2. Other groups which profess peculiar 'gifts' like snake handling, also speak in tongues
What do you suggest is the difference between your tongue and their tongues?

Because of their misapplication and misunderstanding of scripture, we can easily tell that they also misunderstood the gift of tongues no matter how hard they claim to be directed by God. In the same manner, your claims about being directed by God are put in the same scale and found to be nothing more than a misunderstanding.

3. The scripture itself talks of cessation

 

[Dino246]

The idea behind self edification falls in two ways:
1. Self edification is self seeking which can not be the way of love; putting others first.

2. Edification goes hand in hand with understanding. If tongues MUST be interpreted for the church to be edified through understanding, how can one claim self edification without understanding? If there's such a thing as self edification without understanding, then the church can also be edified in the same manner without interpretation and understanding and understanding.

If i pray for healing and get the healing, then i can easily relate it to my prayer, but if i tell God "wuhfbkjkeksdlksvk jufiswsw" and the get healed, how can i relate the meaningless words to my healing?

You're still starting with your conclusion. That's a logical fallacy, and will always be invalid no matter how much verbiage you put around it. The speaker is edified because the word of God says he is edified, not because he understands.

 

[Noose]

Acts 2:5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken.

They were Jews, not Gentiles. Your position is unsupportable.

That was not my point. My point comes from:
"..Astounded and amazed, they asked, “Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? 8How is it then that each of us hears them in his own native language? 9Parthians, Medes, and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,a 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome, 11both Jews and converts to Judaism; Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!”

If they were just Jews and heard the Apostles speak in a language that they expected them to speak, why would they be amazed?
Again, tongues were a miracle to the ears of the hearer, today's tongues are nothing more than noise to the ears of the hearer.

 

[Dino246]

The modern phenomenon is not genuine because:

1. It is spoken in public without any interpretation. Even if there's an interpretation, there's no two independent witnesses to confirm

Nor were there interpretation nor "two independent witnesses to confirm" in Acts 10, nor in Acts 19. Those aren't scriptural tests for genuineness of the gift.

2. Other groups which profess peculiar 'gifts' like snake handling, also speak in tongues
What do you suggest is the difference between your tongue and their tongues?

Because of their misapplication and misunderstanding of scripture, we can easily tell that they also misunderstood the gift of tongues no matter how hard they claim to be directed by God. In the same manner, your claims about being directed by God are put in the same scale and found to be nothing more than a misunderstanding.

Fallacy: guilt by association. Though it's a popular argument, it is fallacious to believe that because someone is wrong about issue 'A' that they are also wrong about issue 'B'. They may not have credibility, but they are not necessarily wrong.

3. The scripture itself talks of cessation

The Scripture also talks of the millennium, but that hasn't happened yet either. Again, flawed reasoning.

You'd do well to learn about logical fallacies. You're basing most of your arguments on them.

 

[UnderGrace]

You're still starting with your conclusion. That's a logical fallacy, and will always be invalid no matter how much verbiage you put around it. The speaker is edified because the word of God says he is edified, not because he understands.

The very definition of "edify" is it to enlighten, instruct........ how can one possibly be edified without understanding?

 

[Dino246]

That was not my point. My point comes from:
"..Astounded and amazed, they asked, “Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? 8How is it then that each of us hears them in his own native language? 9Parthians, Medes, and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,a 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome, 11both Jews and converts to Judaism; Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!”

You've claimed several times that tongues didn't occur when it was only Jews with Jews. Now you're saying that isn't your point? Get some integrity. Scripture says they were Jews. Nowhere in the New Testament is having a particular language as one's "tongue" a qualification for being a Jew.