Free Grace or Faith and Works?

[jaybird88]

You call It work because you Interpret the body as the authority and not the Spirit as authority.
But AFTER salvation renew your mind,present your body a living sacrifice which Is reasonable.

Some would call this work,some would call this progressive and a continuous sanctification purifying the mind and trying to become like the new creation you are now that GOD has made your spirit perfect.

i call it work because the example you provided is work. grace only is one person doing nothing while the other person does the work.

 

[jaybird88]

If you think of salvation as being a new born, you will know that even us human, who are evil, we provide everything for the baby out of pure love. How much more, will God do that for Christians? Matthew 7:11

exactly, a good parent teaches their children out of love, a bad parent spoils their children by doing all the work and teaching them nothing.

 

[jaybird88]

I believe this is the whole point, and meaning, of picking up your own cross, into becoming a disciple of Christ, and adopted son of God.

And it's not that those who are in Christ are wrong.
It's when they condemn other believers for "going those extra miles", as they carry their own cross! Is when they are really condemning themselves, and their "guilt", comes out in their striving to "justify" themselves, in their condemnation of you!
Jez like what Adam said to God, when God asked him why he let the little woman beguile him.
"YOU gave her to me!"
That statement right there, told God everything He feared MIGHT happen? DID happen!

i agree, people are always looking for that backdoor loophole to get out of doing the work. they dont want to hear about the gate being narrow.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

It is clear that you believed in the reformed concept of Limited Atonement.

What I am curious is, have you ever realized that the human concept of time is different from God? Let me explain

God is outside time but we are in time. Hence when we read scriptures saying that God foreknew who would be saved, being in time, we view that causality as follows:

God already knew who will be saved,
THEN
They are saved.

This implies the lack of free will. But for someone who is outside time, it might be possible that people still have free will, even if God already knew what choice they are going to make.

My point is, we human beings grew up living in time, we are like fishes born in water, who cannot really explain what water is. So why are you so insistent that we can understand God and the way he lives outside time?

God, by his foreknowledge looked down in time and Psalms 53:2-3 explains what he saw. That is why he choose an elect people before the foundation of the world and made provision for Christ to clean them up fit for heaven and to have someone to worship and praise his name. I believe the scriptures to teach that God gave man a free will to choose how he wants to live his life while he is still on earth, but God choose man's eternal destination by his sovereign grace, without the decision of man.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

You don’t have to put yourself through that condemnation,JESUS died on the cross making payment for us for ALL sin.

Now although we are still In the flesh here on earth and we still sin we now should repent NOT for forgiveness again for salvation

but repent to GOD that we realized that we sinned In the flesh part but we Intend to continue renewing our minds to the new creation we have become.

After God gives the new birth we have fellowship with God. After we are born again and then sin by our lust of the things of the world, we lose our fellowship with God ( not our eternal security) because God has no fellowship with sin. When we repent God takes us back into his fellowship resulting in a deliverance (salvation) here in this world. The Greek interpretation of the word "salvation" is "a deliverance".

 

[ForestGreenCook]

ask forgiveness, repent, but thats all been "nailed to the cross"? this is the problem with this idea, if we try and follow the way, live a Christ like life, we run into people saying Jesus died on the cross for that, meaning our lives are more or less pointless.

You are right, if we say we have no sin we are a liar and the truth is not in us.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Grace is the first gift but it takes faith on our part to accept.

If it takes faith on our part then it is not a FREE gift. Our faith is rewarded by God here on earth but our faith is not the cause of our eternal salvation.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

IMO,a person needs to repent for salvation once and then by the mercies of GOD,renew their mind to the new creation that they are now.

Romans 12:1-2
King James Version

1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Repenting of a spiritual law does not save you eternally, in fact the natural man, until he is born again and has been given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit cannot repent of a spiritual law that he cannot discern according to 1 Cor 2:14.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

but that sounds like work?

You are right. It is the false doctrine of eternal salvation by the works of man.

 

[Chester]

If it takes faith on our part then it is not a FREE gift. Our faith is rewarded by God here on earth but our faith is not the cause of our eternal salvation.

So if I give you a gift of $1000, but then you hold out your hand to receive the gift, -- then because you have done some "work" my $1000 ceases to be a gift?

Also it should be noted that a gift is a gift! Putting the word "free" in front of it is not necessary! All gifts are free or they are not gifts.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

You call It work because you Interpret the body as the authority and not the Spirit as authority.
But AFTER salvation renew your mind,present your body a living sacrifice which Is reasonable.

Some would call this work,some would call this progressive and a continuous sanctification purifying the mind and trying to become like the new creation you are now that GOD has made your spirit perfect.

Where most of God's children are missing the boat is that they fail to see that there is a deliverance (salvation) here in time when we repent and obey the commandments of God. This deliverance is not eternal deliverance (we already have that ) but it is a deliverance here in time.

 

[stonesoffire]

I voted other. How I view the definition of the word justified, is declared innocent.

Father declares the world innocent because of His Son.

Son declares man innocent through works of Holy Spirit.

Holy Spirit is the power to perform innocence in men. A new nature. A new heart.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

So these ones' who call it "works salvation?" Are these ones' truly in Christ Jesus? So as to justify their condemnation of others', whose efforts towards progressive and continuous sanctification (which I myself call, "efforts" in keeping my election assured). ?

Works Salvationist seem to be talking as If they weren’t GODs workmanship first.

They talk as If they can do these things of themselves but without JESUS they could not do anything but be brought Into captivity to the law of sin which Is In their flesh.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Where most of God's children are missing the boat is that they fail to see that there is a deliverance (salvation) here in time when we repent and obey the commandments of God. This deliverance is not eternal deliverance (we already have that ) but it is a deliverance here in time.

Salvation Is a one time event,the born Again Christian does not need to keep repenting thinking that this will keep him saved GOD IS ALMIGHTY and HIS promises are Yes and amen.

The two commandments that JESUS gave the reborn Christian are not hard to keep,love GOD and love your neighbor because GOD equips/strengthens the person with fruit of the Spirit and since the reborn Christian now has a desire to purify their mind they will seek to purify their mind naturally,JESUS the vine providing sustenance to the body to display spiritual fruit establishing the law.

 

[jaybird88]

Works Salvationist seem to be talking as If they weren’t GODs workmanship first.

They talk as If they can do these things of themselves but without JESUS they could not do anything but be brought Into captivity to the law of sin which Is In their flesh.

no works believer proclaims they do not need Jesus, they just believe Jesus is the way.
there is no law of sin, unless your taling about something written by Alister Crowley, sin is a result of breaking the law

 

[calibob]

no works believer proclaims they do not need Jesus, they just believe Jesus is the way.
there is no law of sin, unless your taling about something written by Alister Crowley, sin is a result of breaking the law

“All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: ‘Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.’

 

[seed_time_harvest]

After God gives the new birth we have fellowship with God. After we are born again and then sin by our lust of the things of the world, we lose our fellowship with God ( not our eternal security) because God has no fellowship with sin. When we repent God takes us back into his fellowship resulting in a deliverance (salvation) here in this world. The Greek interpretation of the word "salvation" is "a deliverance".

Sounds like GODs promises are maybe and amen the way that you are expressing your post.You are saying that GOD REQUIRES some kind of spiritual RITUAL before HE will forgive you,you know GOD Is not like that.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

no works believer proclaims they do not need Jesus, they just believe Jesus is the way.
there is no law of sin, unless your taling about something written by Alister Crowley, sin is a result of breaking the law

Then you should give glory to GOD that you have been equipped and that you now have a desire to purify the mind to match your perfect born Again spirit that has been created righteous and TRULY HOLY.

 

[jaybird88]

“All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: ‘Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.’

im not sure what Paul is teaching here but IMO its very unlikely he is saying people like Samuel, Elijah, and Jesus are cursed because they obeyed the law.
Satanism and Luciferianism really do have laws of sin, i dont think Christianity is going to be taking pages from the satanist p[laybook.

 

[calibob]

im not sure what Paul is teaching here but IMO its very unlikely he is saying people like Samuel, Elijah, and Jesus are cursed because they obeyed the law.
Satanism and Luciferianism really do have laws of sin, i dont think Christianity is going to be taking pages from the satanist p[laybook.

The law was fulfilled at Calvary and a new covenant is now in effect.