O.T. Circumcision a foreshadow of N.T. Water Baptism

[Wansvic]

Belief will always prompt action:

James 2:18-24
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

One has to believe something before they act upon it.
Paul is the one who stated Holy Spirit infilling is a separate experience from belief. (Acts 19)

That was my point

If you do not have faith, you will never ask, at which time they will be empowered to work out their faith?

So when are youy going to ask, instead of trusting yourself

 

[mailmandan]

Belief will always prompt action:

James 2:18-24
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

For a thorough examination of James 2:14-26, see post #95,896 from the link below.

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-4795#post-3892248

 

[he-rat_of_the_circus-mice]

It is stated in Genesis that the uncircumcised man was cut off from his people for breaking God's covenant:

"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." Gen 17:14

If circumcision were required for salvation in the Old Testament, it would have been *very* difficult for females to be saved. Do you believe female Old Testament believers could not be saved, or did they get a free pass? Or something else?

 

[garee]

Are the purposes really different? Removal from the male body the shame, reproach and uncleanness that separates us from God, and beginning life anew (as circ performed on the eighth day). Immersing the believer in Christ (his death in submerging, and resurrection as emerging), and putting to death the natural man of sin, and putting on the new man through Christ. To me they are very similar.

Hi thanks for the reply.

Yes, Its a picture of new life. And water like blood is used to represent the unseen spirit in many parables. Its the kind of water that quenches a parched hope.

But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.John 4:14

The Immersion of the believer in Christ I would think is not followed with a sign of new life as a sign gift that confirms a person has. The Holy Spirit baptism is one of fire, death .

I don't know if this is reading too far into the text. I would guess that Moses' heart was, or had become uncircumcised, through his disobedience to circumcise his son. Probably he feared his father-in-law more than God. But God uses Zipporah to circumcise her son, and bring Moses' heart back to a place of belief and obedience.

I think the reference bloody husband applies to Christ as with first mentions. This was before Abraham the beginning of the use of fathers

John says not because of Moses, but the incorruptible spiritual seed Christ (our bloody husband) passed it down unto the birth of the Son of man, Jesus.

John 7:22 Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.

It would appear that he was setting up circumcision as sign of his bloody firstborn Israel as a sign to let His people go. There is no other reason mentioned in the scripture as to the foundation of the ceremonial law regarding circumfusion (let my people go)

And the Lord said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn. Exodus 4:21-22

Does the bible actually say John's baptism was for the remission of sin?

No it represents a new priest having a desire to enter the ministry of the believers as a kingdom of priest. Not all Levites responded to the desire just as all Christian have the capacity but not all go with the gospel . John introduced the new order after Melchezedek. Men, women from all nations can volunteer to bring the gospel

 

[garee]

One has to believe something before they act upon it.
Paul is the one who stated Holy Spirit infilling is a separate experience from belief. (Acts 19)

Its the first born again experience of believing; the Holy Spirit bringing into our minds His word into our hearts giving us rest.

Believing in a God not seen...... needs a source of faith in order to give him who believes not..... a faith as a law that works in them to even make it possible to beleive . The faith of Christ

Hearing God as he gives us ears of faith by which we can hear. Is his first work that did work in us .Our first love was our beginning to become acquainted with the infilling of His Holy Spirit. In Philippians 1:6 we are informed that if Christ has begun his first works in us, giving us ears to hear what he is saying to the churches, he will finish it till the end .

 

[Wansvic]

For a thorough examination of James 2:14-26, see post #95,896 from the link below.

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-4795#post-3892248

I choose to accept what the bible itself says because we will all be judged by its content alone.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I choose to accept what the bible itself says because we will all be judged by its content alone.

Yes you will

And you will be judged by how you recieve Gods gift of eternal life

Fail to recieve it, or recieve it on your terms, and you will be lost forever.

 

[Wansvic]

That was my point

If you do not have faith, you will never ask, at which time they will be empowered to work out their faith?

So when are youy going to ask, instead of trusting yourself

Your post #111 The gift of the HS is given to all who believe the moment God saves them.

 

[garee]

One has to believe something before they act upon it.
Paul is the one who stated Holy Spirit infilling is a separate experience from belief. (Acts 19)

Paul actually stated the baptism of men, as the temporal things of men seen, John's baptism, which was used in ceremonies when a new priest desired to become a member of the priesthood. It was in the name of men the temporal seen.

Those in Acts had not yet received the Holy Spirit. The eternal not seen and therefore were not baptized in the name/authority of a savior (the eternal not seen) . But the name of a presently outdated priestly order. The time of reformation had come . Water cannot wash away sin it represents Spirit, it can .. Its what Christ poured out, the gospel. Its what the kingdom of priest believers hold out in a hope that other should believe on him Christ Jesus.

Acts 19 King James Version (KJV)And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

 

[Wansvic]

After listening to Peter and believing that Jesus was the messiah whom was crucified, those present were upset and asked what they must do. Peter gave instructions that everyone must follow. (Acts 2:36-40)

If belief is all that is required why didn't Peter just say so?

 

[Wansvic]

Yes you will

And you will be judged by how you recieve Gods gift of eternal life

Fail to recieve it, or recieve it on your terms, and you will be lost forever.

A gift must be opened.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Your post #111 The gift of the HS is given to all who believe the moment God saves them.

Yeah,

Did you get sealed by the spirit the moment you were saved, or are you still trying to earn his presence?

 

[mailmandan]

After listening to Peter and believing that Jesus was the messiah whom was crucified, those present were upset and asked what they must do. Peter gave instructions that everyone must follow. (Acts 2:36-40)

If belief is all that is required why didn't Peter just say so?

Peter did say so in Acts 10:43 and so did Paul in Acts 16:31. We need to properly harmonize Scripture with Scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine.

Go back and read post #100.

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...foreshadow-of-n-t-water-baptism.183674/page-5

 

[eternally-gratefull]

A gift must be opened.

A gift must be recieved. It only needs opened if it is wrapped up. I have gave many a gift that was not wrapped. Even paying someone bill is considered a gift. How do they open that gift? (This is what Christ did on the cross. He paid our debt)

God is not going to just force you to take it, he wants you to willingly recieve it.

Either way I gift is not earned by working for it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

After listening to Peter and believing that Jesus was the messiah whom was crucified, those present were upset and asked what they must do. Peter gave instructions that everyone must follow. (Acts 2:36-40)

If belief is all that is required why didn't Peter just say so?

You need to study that in the greek

Peter told EVERYONE to repent, and informed them that THEY would be given the gift of the holy spirit

He told only a SELECT group of people to be baptised. On the account of the fact they had recieved remission of sin.

It does not say what you think

 

[Wansvic]

If circumcision were required for salvation in the Old Testament, it would have been *very* difficult for females to be saved. Do you believe female Old Testament believers could not be saved, or did they get a free pass? Or something else?

I am unaware of any specific scripture in the OT that addresses the topic. However, because men are the primary focus in the OT it has been my personal belief that the family was protected through the obedience of the husband. This belief arose from Paul's statement indicating that the man is the head of the woman.

We see in Galatians that both male and females put on Christ by submitting to water baptism:
"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." Gal 3:27-28

 

[Wansvic]

You need to study that in the greek

Peter told EVERYONE to repent, and informed them that THEY would be given the gift of the holy spirit

He told only a SELECT group of people to be baptised. On the account of the fact they had recieved remission of sin.

It does not say what you think

I respectfully disagree. Have a great day.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

lol..
Ok

 

[Wansvic]

Peter did say so in Acts 10:43 and so did Paul in Acts 16:31. We need to properly harmonize Scripture with Scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine.

Go back and read post #100.

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...foreshadow-of-n-t-water-baptism.183674/page-5

All of the Word must be considered to get a complete picture.

Belief, and act of submitting to water baptism = Through his name (water baptism) one receives remission of sins (Acts 2:38)
Acts 10:43
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Again, believe on Jesus and do what; get water baptized:
Acts 16:31-33
"And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.