When Paul says "but to the one that does not work" He is talking about the one that does not consider anything of himself or what he can do as having salvation merit, but believes in salvation being Christs work, all of Christ 100%. Paul is not speaking of the fruit of the spirit which are always the result of conversion.
Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
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When Paul says "but to the one that does not work" He is talking about the one that does not consider anything of himself or what he can do as having salvation merit, but believes in salvation being Christs work, all of Christ 100%. Paul is not speaking of the fruit of the spirit which are always the result of conversion.
Sorry don't buy it....one cannot get any more righteous than the deeds/works of the law and he covers this in almost ever letter....works of any flavor have no bearing on salvation which is a one off event with present continuing results......based entirely upon faith....the same JUSTIFIES us before God
One cannot produce works more righteous than works of righteousness!
And the verbiage is clear....it does NOT say what you imply...it states clearly ONE THAT DOES NOT WORK!!
One cannot produce works more righteous than works of righteousness!
And the verbiage is clear....it does NOT say what you imply...it states clearly ONE THAT DOES NOT WORK!!
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I know the language of its a free gift. I though think this is actually miss selling Jesus.
He calls us to give up our lives in the world and invest in the Kingdom.
He calls us to count the cost, and calls us to walk His path and His way.
Jesus freely offers the gate and the path, but the cost is all we are.
And rightly so, because what we are is sinner who are slaves to sin with no way out
to find life and love. And the walk is a walk of dedication, service and love, counting
others as more worthy than ourselves, daily and learning how to follow, by effort and
diligence.
22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
Romans 3:22-24
The over emphasis on the gift and lack of conditions has led to the error of exagurated
grace and forgiveness without any outworking or need for transformation when the
first commandment
Love the Lord your God with all your heart, strength and mind
takes everything we are, so clearly this is not a passing fancy or whim, but an all
encompassing passion and dedication.
He calls us to give up our lives in the world and invest in the Kingdom.
He calls us to count the cost, and calls us to walk His path and His way.
Jesus freely offers the gate and the path, but the cost is all we are.
And rightly so, because what we are is sinner who are slaves to sin with no way out
to find life and love. And the walk is a walk of dedication, service and love, counting
others as more worthy than ourselves, daily and learning how to follow, by effort and
diligence.
22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
Romans 3:22-24
The over emphasis on the gift and lack of conditions has led to the error of exagurated
grace and forgiveness without any outworking or need for transformation when the
first commandment
Love the Lord your God with all your heart, strength and mind
takes everything we are, so clearly this is not a passing fancy or whim, but an all
encompassing passion and dedication.
Here's what I believe who the LIAR is?
...We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did. 1 John 2:3-6
... Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.” John 8:42-47 The Children of the Devil
...For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. Jude 1:4
...In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire... In the very same way, these dreamers pollute their own bodies, reject authority and slander celestial beings. These men are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.
But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and DO NOT HAVE THE SPIRIT. Jude 1:7-8,16-19
Who causes DIVISION and who do not have the Spirit?
...As THE BODY WITHOUT THE SPIRIT IS DEAD, so faith without deeds is dead. James 2:26
...I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but YOU ARE DEAD. Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is ABOUT TO DIE, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God. Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you. Revelation 3:1-3
...Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather EXPOSE THEM. For it is shameful even to mention what the DISOBEDIENT do in secret. But everything exposed by the light becomes visible, for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said: “WALE UP, O sleeper, RISE FROM THE DEAD, and Christ will shine on you.” Ephesians 5:11-14
...And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to WAKE UP FROM YOUR SLUMBER, because OUR SALVATION IS NEARER NOW THAN WHEN WE FIRST BELIEVED. Romans 13:11
...What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God’s faithfulness? Not at all! LET GOD BE TRUE, and every man a liar. As it is written: “So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.” Romans 3:3-4
...We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did. 1 John 2:3-6
... Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.” John 8:42-47 The Children of the Devil
...For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. Jude 1:4
...In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire... In the very same way, these dreamers pollute their own bodies, reject authority and slander celestial beings. These men are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.
But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and DO NOT HAVE THE SPIRIT. Jude 1:7-8,16-19
Who causes DIVISION and who do not have the Spirit?
...As THE BODY WITHOUT THE SPIRIT IS DEAD, so faith without deeds is dead. James 2:26
...I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but YOU ARE DEAD. Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is ABOUT TO DIE, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God. Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you. Revelation 3:1-3
...Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather EXPOSE THEM. For it is shameful even to mention what the DISOBEDIENT do in secret. But everything exposed by the light becomes visible, for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said: “WALE UP, O sleeper, RISE FROM THE DEAD, and Christ will shine on you.” Ephesians 5:11-14
...And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to WAKE UP FROM YOUR SLUMBER, because OUR SALVATION IS NEARER NOW THAN WHEN WE FIRST BELIEVED. Romans 13:11
...What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God’s faithfulness? Not at all! LET GOD BE TRUE, and every man a liar. As it is written: “So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.” Romans 3:3-4
Your defense tactic is getting old.
I was not banned and I'm not a Catholic and I have said this before.
If you cannot answer an honest question, do not resort to "ad hominem. It's a sign of weakness and cowardice.
...But the COWARDLY, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and ALL LIARS—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” Revelation 21:8
I was not banned and I'm not a Catholic and I have said this before.
If you cannot answer an honest question, do not resort to "ad hominem. It's a sign of weakness and cowardice.
...But the COWARDLY, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and ALL LIARS—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” Revelation 21:8
U
Yes I understand, however man is both good and evil, we ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil so we have knowledge of both.
I am not so inclined to believe that God chooses/selects those that are saved which is what is seems your are presently and were stating.
I do totally agree we are under grace and and salvation is apart from works.
I am not so inclined to believe that God chooses/selects those that are saved which is what is seems your are presently and were stating.
I do totally agree we are under grace and and salvation is apart from works.
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1 Peter 5:8: Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil. as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour.
Satan is seeking to devour those who have been converted. Obviously, the rest he has and does not need to seek them. I do believe Peter is expressing a serious warning to real Christians. Why? Because it is a real possibility. Paul warns against falling at length. There is no such thing as once saved always saved this side of the second coming. It is an extremely dangerous thing to get in your mind. It destroys the evilness of sin and therefore relegates the cross to just a "as long as I get to heaven mindset." The plan of salvation is to destroy sin, not to make sin meaningless. I had a person , a policeman no less, get really mad at me ...we were in a car together.. thank goodness I was driving... we were discussing OSAS and he got so mad at me for refuting OSAS.. he literally yelled at me that he could get out of the car right now, go into that yard where a bunch of kids were playing, start killing the kids, and while doing that, if another policeman shot him dead, he would immediately be welcomed into heaven by Jesus.
I have had others say essentially the same. OSAS is an evil satanic doctrine having nothing to do with the God of Love.
Satan is seeking to devour those who have been converted. Obviously, the rest he has and does not need to seek them. I do believe Peter is expressing a serious warning to real Christians. Why? Because it is a real possibility. Paul warns against falling at length. There is no such thing as once saved always saved this side of the second coming. It is an extremely dangerous thing to get in your mind. It destroys the evilness of sin and therefore relegates the cross to just a "as long as I get to heaven mindset." The plan of salvation is to destroy sin, not to make sin meaningless. I had a person , a policeman no less, get really mad at me ...we were in a car together.. thank goodness I was driving... we were discussing OSAS and he got so mad at me for refuting OSAS.. he literally yelled at me that he could get out of the car right now, go into that yard where a bunch of kids were playing, start killing the kids, and while doing that, if another policeman shot him dead, he would immediately be welcomed into heaven by Jesus.
I have had others say essentially the same. OSAS is an evil satanic doctrine having nothing to do with the God of Love.
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But it doesn't really matter re salvation if one is useable or not? So instead of often going to the "He was never really saved in the first place" comeback when an obviously converted person obviously falls, now you can also use the "oh he has just beome unuseable" line.
Really, the problem seems to be that OSAS either believe Satan is more powerful than God or sin doesn't actually matter...that once one is converted sin has no consequence regarding salvation. Well, I would just say to prayerfully study the question more.
Really, the problem seems to be that OSAS either believe Satan is more powerful than God or sin doesn't actually matter...that once one is converted sin has no consequence regarding salvation. Well, I would just say to prayerfully study the question more.
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I can only discern the spirit through the spirit and not through the OSAS lens which CLAIMS to have a FAITH ALONE that ONCE and ALWAYS save them even if they would lie to the HOLY SPIRIT.
YES, i was JUSTIFIED through FAITH(a LIVING Faith not DEAD) and I have a LIVING Hope that God will SAVE me from His coming WRATH which would come on those who are DISOBEDIENT.(Ephesians 5:6)
I do not disregard God's AUTHORITY on my SALVATION. If i do not REMAIN IN HIM, He will not REMAIN in me. If I turn away from Him and ABANDON the FAITH to follow DECEIVING spirits and things taught by demons such as DISOBEDIENCE TO GOD and lieing to the HOLY SPIRIT which caused the DEATH of man (ADAM and EVE, ANANIAS and SAPPHIRA are good examples)
A Christian who BELONGS in the body of Christ should be LIVING in LOVE and WALKING as Jesus did, and this is LOVE; "THAT WE WALK IN OBEDIENCE TO HIS COMMANDS." They should not RUN AHEAD(2 John 1:7-13) but instead, just as Paul said...
...Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus. All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. Only let us live up to what we have already attained. Philippians 3:12-16 Pressing on Toward the Goal
It is the BODY OF CHRIST which was SANCTIFIED, PERFECTED, GLORIFIED, which will not perish, will not decay, see death or die, incorruptible, will not be condemned and WILL BE SAVED by Jesus Christ when He comes. It will be presented to Him as a PURE VIRGIN.
...I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 2 Corinthians 11:2-3
...It is God’s will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; that each of you should learn to control his own body in a way that is holy and honorable, not in passionate lust like the heathen, who do not know God; and that in this matter no one should wrong his brother or take advantage of him. The Lord will punish men for all such sins, as we have already told you and warned you. For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit. 1 Thessalonians 4:3-8
... The Son of Man will send out his angels, and THEY WILL WEED OUT OF HIS KINGDOM EVERYTHING THAT CAUSES SIN AND ALL WHO DO EVIL. They will THROW THEM INTO THE FIERY FURNACE, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear. Matthew 13:41-43
...But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” Revelation 21:8
...See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven? Hebrews 12:25
We can see and identify from these discussions who are the servants of God and who are not...who are righteous and who are wicked.
Jesus told His disciples to preach the Gospel unto all nations and teach them to OBEY HIS COMMANDMENTS. (Matthew 28:18-20)
Now those who adhere to the Lord's instructions are called "IDIOTIC", WORKS SALVATIONISTS, SINLESS PERFECTIONISTS, SALVATION LOSERS ETC. Insulting and mocking the idea of OBEDIENCE TO GOD as PART OF SALVATION. (See Hebrews 5:7-9)
They are calling evil GOOD and good EVIL. (Isaiah 5:20-24)
What is NOTICEABLE is how this people PROUDLY and CONTINUOUSLY calling themselves "SINNERS" even after claiming at the same time that they were BORN AGAIN of incorruptible seed.
(A double personality suffering from SCHIZOPHRENIA who love to DOUBLE TALK.)
I am not insulting or mocking anyone but just EXPOSING them to lead them to godly sorrow and somehow REPENT.
...When I say to a wicked man, ‘YOU WILL SURELY DIE,’ and you do not warn him or speak out to DISSUADE HIM FROM HIS EVIL WAYS in order TO SAVE HIS LIFE, that wicked man will die for his sin, and I will hold you ACCOUNTABLE for his blood. But if you do warn the wicked man and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his evil ways, he will die for his sin; but you will have saved yourself. “Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before him, he will die. Since you did not warn him, he will die for his sin. The righteous things he did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. But if you do WARN the righteous man not to sin and he does not sin, HE WILL SURELY LIVE because HE TOOK WARNING, and you will have saved yourself.” Ezekiel 3:18-21
... “Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be SHAMEFULLY EXPOSED.” Revelation 16:15
...“YOU HAVE SAID HARSH THINGS AGAINST ME,” says the Lord. “Yet you ask, ‘What have we said against you?’ “You have said, ‘IT IS FUTILE TO SERVE GOD. What did we gain by CARRYING OUT HIS REQUIREMENTS and going about like mourners before the Lord Almighty? But now we call the arrogant blessed. Certainly the evildoers prosper, and even those who challenge God escape.’” Then those who feared the Lord talked with each other, and the Lord listened and heard. A scroll of remembrance was written in his presence concerning those who feared the Lord and honored his name. “THEY WILL BE MINE,” says the Lord Almighty, “in the day when I make up my treasured possession. I WILL SPARE THEM, just as in compassion a man spares his son who serves him. And you will again see the distinction between THE RIGHTEOUS and THE WICKED, between THOSE WHO SERVE God and THOSE WHO DO NOT. Malachi 3:13-18
...I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in LEADING THE GENTILES TO OBEY GOD BY WHAT I HAVE SAID AND DONE—
Romans 15:18
What are you teaching?
Aren't you leading believers to DISOBEY GOD?
It is God’s will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; that each of you should learn to control his own body in a way that is holy and honorable, not in passionate lust like the heathen, who do not know God; and that in this matter NO ONE SHOULD WRONG HIS BROTHER OR TAKE ADVANTAGE OF HIM. THE LORD WILL PUNISH MEN FOR ALL SUCH SINS, as we have already told you and WARNED YOU. FOR GOD DID NOT CALL US TO BE IMPURE, but to LIVE A HOLY LIFE. Therefore, HE WHO REJECTS THIS INSTRUCTION DOES NOT REJECT MAN BUT GOD, who gives you his Holy Spirit.
1 Thessalonians 4:3-8
...See to it that you DO NOT REFUSE HIM who speaks. IF THEY DID NOT ESCAPE when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, IF WE TURN AWAY FROM HIM WHO WARNS US FROM HEAVEN? Hebrews 12:25
...The Spirit clearly says that in later times some WILL ABANDON THE FAITH and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 1 Timothy 4:1-2
Those who will ABANDON THEIR FAITH are those who CLAIM to have FAITH but without works...DEAD...NO POWER...
...“WHY do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and DO NOT DO WHAT I SAY? I will show you what he is like who comes to me and HEARS MY WORDS and PUTS THEM INTO PRACTICE. He is like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. But the one who hears my words and DOES NOT PUT THEM INTO PRACTICE is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete.” Luke 6:46-49
..."FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD."...James 2:26
...LET GOD BE TRUE...GOD CANNOT BE MOCKED...(Romans 3:3-4 & Galatians 6:7-10)
If you really are obedient to God then teach us to OBEY GOD...what hinders you to do so and would rather attack those who continue in His teachings?
...On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.” Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?” Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me. John 14:20-24
...Why do you call me "Lord, Lord", and do not do what I say?
Both are lies and your view fails the smell test.....the bible is replete with proof of eternal security, the use and reasoning of chastening, the loss or gain of reward and or becoming unusable by disobedience....I suggest you study more and start with....
The gifts and calling of God are IRREVOCABLE
I will LOSE NOTHING
WE are KEPT BY THE POWER OF God
I will never LEAVE THEE OR FORSAKE THEE.....
Sealed UNTO THE DAY OF REDEMPTION
To peddle a losable salvation that is maintained by self is to flat deny the above...and too be honest.....is nothing more than religious blather!
The gifts and calling of God are IRREVOCABLE
I will LOSE NOTHING
WE are KEPT BY THE POWER OF God
I will never LEAVE THEE OR FORSAKE THEE.....
Sealed UNTO THE DAY OF REDEMPTION
To peddle a losable salvation that is maintained by self is to flat deny the above...and too be honest.....is nothing more than religious blather!
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How about you actually deal with the scripture Ephesians 2:8-9 rather than talking around it or pretend it does not exist?
It obviously gets in the way, of your path (footsteps) towards holiness.
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That last line is idiotic......Greek verb tense proves eternal security....not to mention all verses in context....your Jesus must be a weak inept liar....
Mine saves to the uttermost, keeps me by his power through the faith he begins, finishes and completes and his free gift is irrevocable...
It must be tragic to serve such a weak God that needs help keeping one saved...
Mine saves to the uttermost, keeps me by his power through the faith he begins, finishes and completes and his free gift is irrevocable...
It must be tragic to serve such a weak God that needs help keeping one saved...
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I do understand your issue about the way many use "gift", but it is really emphasized in scripture: "thanks be to God for his unspeakable gift" 2 Cor 9:15. Paul emphasizes "free gift" and the "gift by grace". And I understand that salvation is by Grace through (the channel of) faith. The gift includes implanted love, implanted obedience, i.e. loving obedience. The gift is not forgiveness alone, but forgiveness/restoration. The goal of the gospel is holiness.
The gospel is pardon and power, forgiveness and restoration, cleansing/new life, etc. If we do not have the faith that will stop us from sinning, we do not have the faith that can be taken to eternal life. At Jesus second coming, God is not going to turn a screw in our head so that now we are a sinless robot. Longer story short: the bible is absolutely clear that Jesus must reign in us...there can be no 1%-99% Jesus management and 1%-99% personal management. We must empty ourselves of self or the gospel can never be true for us. That is 100% bible truth. Now the blow. WE cannot empty SELF of SELF. So what is the bible solution? We can only CONSENT for Christ to do the work. When we start to realize what we are, we will 100% realize that if anything is to foundationally change (and total transformation is an intricate part of conversion/salvation) , it will not be through our own effort, but through the merits and power of Jesus. We are to talk to Jesus, realize our complete helplessness, and ask from Him faith, and to take our life, our mind, and mold it to His image for the glory of God. It is really sad that so many professed Christians seem to be on Satans "sin doesn't really matter, saved or unsaved" side. Such really have no sense what the cross is about.
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