A NON-CHARISMATIC UNDERSTANDING OF TONGUES

[RickyZ]

LISTEN UP. I did not say that, I said it was learned behavior or psychological phenomena, a Counterfeit of tongues. That truly is WHAT I BELIEVE. That being case, how do you know that Satan or a demon, can not control your tongue or private prayer language, WHEN PETER had his mouth controlled by SATAN, in a KNOWN LANGUAGE, while standing RIGHT NEXT TO THE LORD ? ? HOW DO YOU KNOW YOU ARE IMMUNE ?

Matthew 16:22-23 (HCSB)
22 Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, “Oh no, Lord! This will never happen to You!”
23 But He turned and told Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me because you’re not thinking about God’s concerns, but man’s.”

You're NOT immune. I have had satan or his minions try to take over while I'm in prayer. When that happens I start repeating "Jesus is Lord" until it drives them away. Because it is only by the Holy Spirit that you can say that.

I think what is missing here is a big dose of DISCERNMENT.

VCO, you are right in saying there are a lot of fakes and falsehoods out there. Yes they need to be rooted out.

But satan doesn't put that much work into producing fakes and falsehoods UNLESS HE SEES THE GENUINE ARTICLE IS IN PLAY. Just he fact that it IS so falsified should ring a bell that says if satan doesn't like this that much, there must be something real to it.

 

[kaylagrl]

LISTEN UP. I did not say that, I said it was learned behavior or psychological phenomena, a Counterfeit of tongues. That truly is WHAT I BELIEVE. That being case, how do you know that Satan or a demon, can not control your tongue or private prayer language, WHEN PETER had his mouth controlled by SATAN, in a KNOWN LANGUAGE, while standing RIGHT NEXT TO THE LORD ? ? HOW DO YOU KNOW YOU ARE IMMUNE ?

Matthew 16:22-23 (HCSB)
22 Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, “Oh no, Lord! This will never happen to You!”
23 But He turned and told Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me because you’re not thinking about God’s concerns, but man’s.”

Hold the horses again!!!!! I DID NOT say you say that. Read my last sentence, I said I don't believe the OP is saying that. If I can't know whether satan is speaking through me when I pray we have a whole new BIGGER problem than tongues! If I can't know if I'm speaking or the devil is how do I know I'm saved?!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Let me paraphrase:

Mark 3

A House Divided
(Matthew 12:22-30; Luke 11:14-23)
20Then Jesus went home, and once again a crowd gathered, so that He and His disciples could not even eat. 21When His family heard about this, they went out to take custody of Him, saying, “He is out of His mind.”
22And the scribes who had come down from Jerusalem were saying, “He is possessed by Beelzebul,” and, “By the prince of the demons He works His gifts.”
23So Jesus called them together and began to speak to them in parables: “How can Satan drive out Satan? 24If a kingdom is divided against itself, it cannot stand. 25If a house is divided against itself, it cannot stand. 26And if Satan is divided and rises against himself, he cannot stand; his end has come. 27Indeed, no one can enter a strong man’s house to steal his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man. Then he can plunder his house.
The Unpardonable Sin
(Matthew 12:31-32)
28Truly I tell you, the sons of men will be forgiven all sins and blasphemies, as many as they utter. 29But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of eternal sin.”
30Jesus made this statement because they were saying, “He has an unclean spirit.”

***

Sorry dude

Not speaking in tongues is not a game-ender.

Saying everyone who does is demonic, is.

Those ain't my words. I'm just the messenger.

Form where I stand, Your the messenger of a faulty interpretation, thats what you are.

No one will go to hell because they think people who speaks in tongues is speaking from a demon.

No place in scripture will you find that.

People will go to hell because of unbelief, what they think about tongues has no bearing.

What they did, is say that the SIGNS that Jesus was performing, which PROVED that he was the messiah (OT TEXTS said he would do those things) which should have led them to Christ, they were trying to claim was from satan not God. Thus they were DENYING Jesus as the messiah, who would take their sins. Thus in fact if they continued, dissent from the gospel of Christ which the HS is tasked with teaching all men.

As as such, as Jesus said, THEY WERE IN DANGER of commiting the unpardonable sin (I waited to put this in here to see if you would even show it in what your saying) they did not as of yet commit this sin, this is where you are wrong)

They would not be condemned because they claimed Jesus did those things by the HS, They would be condemned because they called the HS a liar, since it is HIS job to PROVE Jesus is the messiah and what he did on the cross and teaching us the gospel. All people who have yet to come to faith ARE IN DANGER of commiting the unpardonable sin. Just like these men, who were in DANGER (they did not actually commit the sin yet. Your misinterpreting what Jesus said) if they do not repent before death If they die in this state, they have COMMITED the unpardonable sin.

Your not the messiah, The HS is not showing signs through you to prove your the messiah. No one is in danger of commiting the unpardonable sin if they think your tongue speaking is from satan.

Just like misunderstanding the Baptiosm of the spirit. Sadly, You misunderstand this too.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

You're NOT immune. I have had satan or his minions try to take over while I'm in prayer. When that happens I start repeating "Jesus is Lord" until it drives them away. Because it is only by the Holy Spirit that you can say that.

I think what is missing here is a big dose of DISCERNMENT.

VCO, you are right in saying there are a lot of fakes and falsehoods out there. Yes they need to be rooted out.

But satan doesn't put that much work into producing fakes and falsehoods UNLESS HE SEES THE GENUINE ARTICLE IS IN PLAY. Just he fact that it IS so falsified should ring a bell that says if satan doesn't like this that much, there must be something real to it.

I totally agree and have quite a few times in the forums in different threads said there are false moves and false things happening and people just throw all discernment out the window because they are in church or with a group of people who are supposed to be all Christians

however, I'll add to that now. the other side of that, are churches and denoms that deny anything they cannot label, put a pin through or control. if is often very much about control...even in Pentecoastal and Charismatic churches

when control pops up anywhere, it's not God

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It's that teachable spirit that's the hangup. Truth is only available to those who are willing to question what they think they know, right?

That goes for both sides.

When we think we are right no matter what, we become unteachable.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

LISTEN UP. I did not say that, I said it was learned behavior or psychological phenomena, a Counterfeit of tongues. That truly is WHAT I BELIEVE. That being case, how do you know that Satan or a demon, can not control your tongue or private prayer language, WHEN PETER had his mouth controlled by SATAN, in a KNOWN LANGUAGE, while standing RIGHT NEXT TO THE LORD ? ? HOW DO YOU KNOW YOU ARE IMMUNE ?

Matthew 16:22-23 (HCSB)
22 Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, “Oh no, Lord! This will never happen to You!”
23 But He turned and told Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me because you’re not thinking about God’s concerns, but man’s.”

Peter was not controlled by satan.

satan didn't put his figurative hand up Peter's back and make him do anything

we always have a choice but we have what Peter did not have...we have the Holy Spirit and we can overcome the devil's lies and temptations

we have the power of the Spirit of God to be more than what our flesh would tell us we are

Peter did not have that until the day of Pentecost

the difference between his denial of Christ and his testimony of the risen and living Son of God is what most who are filled with the Holy Spirit understand and are trying to talk about

it's far more than just 'tongues' and the ridiculous accusations being made are an affront to both God and to all who believe in Him...tongues or not, people should not make the mistake harsh words and using scripture like a spear and aiming it at people is a behavior that needs to be emulated

a person can actually allow the devil to fill them...as per Ananias and his wife...God knows the heart...Jesus forgave Peter...Ananias died along with his wife

the hardest thing to do, is to save a person from themself.

we should talk about the miraculous transformation God enacts in people by His Spirit...like Peter...and even so, he had to be charged by Paul not to return to a religion that had death as the penalty for disobedience in even the smallest thing

I would agree with Paul when he says it was for freedom that Christ set us free. don't let yourself be enslaved again or be fearful of anger. when you lie in your heart, no matter what you say, God sees it. when you are fearful, God knows it.

BIG difference between the two.

and now the whole thing will most likely just go back to whatever argument was being made and never mind the bigger picture

 

[RickyZ]

Form where I stand, Your the messenger of a faulty interpretation, thats what you are.

No one will go to hell because they think people who speaks in tongues is speaking from a demon.

No place in scripture will you find that.

People will go to hell because of unbelief, what they think about tongues has no bearing.

What they did, is say that the SIGNS that Jesus was performing, which PROVED that he was the messiah (OT TEXTS said he would do those things) which should have led them to Christ, they were trying to claim was from satan not God. Thus they were DENYING Jesus as the messiah, who would take their sins. Thus in fact if they continued, dissent from the gospel of Christ which the HS is tasked with teaching all men.

As as such, as Jesus said, THEY WERE IN DANGER of commiting the unpardonable sin (I waited to put this in here to see if you would even show it in what your saying) they did not as of yet commit this sin, this is where you are wrong)

They would not be condemned because they claimed Jesus did those things by the HS, They would be condemned because they called the HS a liar, since it is HIS job to PROVE Jesus is the messiah and what he did on the cross and teaching us the gospel. All people who have yet to come to faith ARE IN DANGER of commiting the unpardonable sin. Just like these men, who were in DANGER (they did not actually commit the sin yet. Your misinterpreting what Jesus said) if they do not repent before death If they die in this state, they have COMMITED the unpardonable sin.

Your not the messiah, The HS is not showing signs through you to prove your the messiah. No one is in danger of commiting the unpardonable sin if they think your tongue speaking is from satan.

Just like misunderstanding the Baptiosm of the spirit. Sadly, You misunderstand this too.

Well that was a very mixed batch of truths and misunderstandings, and I don't know even where or how to start to untangle that for you.

But that doesn't mean I ain't going to try

What you say about the unpardonable sin encompassing accepting/rejecting Christ is true. I'm wit ya on that.

But limiting that passage to only that interpretation is tunnel vision, I believe.

Yes the religious people of that day, in saying Jesus did things by the power of satan, was very much an overall act of rejecting Him.

But I don't think Jesus' response was 'hey be careful you might do something wrong', no, Jesus said 'oops look at what you've gone and done now'. The blasphemes were not future, it happened right then and there.

Which is why, when someone says I pray in the Spirit by a demon, their words are already spoken. Mark 3 et al is not a warning, it's a judgment.

Which is again, why I say have your opinion and share it. Correct those in error in how they do it, my Lord I'd be right there with ya.

But when you step up and say 100% of it is false and demonic, I close my eyes and pray forgive them Lord they know not what they are doing.

 

[VCO]

Hold the horses again!!!!! I DID NOT say you say that. Read my last sentence, I said I don't believe the OP is saying that. If I can't know whether satan is speaking through me when I pray we have a whole new BIGGER problem than tongues! If I can't know if I'm speaking or the devil is how do I know I'm saved?!

Oh my, . . . . . . . IT IS NOT BY SIGNS. Primarily it is BY LOVE that comes from the HEART.

1 John 3:14-21 (HCSB)
14 We know that we have passed from death to life because we love our brothers. The one who does not love remains in death.
15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.
16 This is how we have come to know love: He laid down His life for us. We should also lay down our lives for our brothers.
17 If anyone has this world’s goods and sees his brother in need but closes his eyes to his ⌊need⌋—how can God’s love reside in him?
18 Little children, we must not love with word or speech, but with truth and action.
19 This is how we will know we belong to the truth and will convince our conscience in His presence,
20 even if our conscience condemns us, that God is greater than our conscience, and He knows all things.
21 Dear friends, if our conscience doesn’t condemn ⌊us⌋, we have confidence before God

1 John 5:11-13 (NRSV)
11 And this is the testimony: God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.
13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.


1 John 2:29 (HCSB)
29 If you know that He is righteous, you know this as well: Everyone who does what is right has been born of Him.


GOD's LOVE IN YOUR HEART will sprout and WILL be producing LOVING Obedience. It is not part of SALVATION, that FREE GIFT was waiting for before time began; was your possession, the MOMENT YOU First BELIEVED in HIM.

2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.


The JEWISH meaning for BELIEVE is much more INTENSE and Involves TOTAL TRUST IN HIM.


1 John 2:5-6 (HCSB)
5 But whoever keeps His word [out of LOVE for HIM] , truly in him the love of God is perfected.
This is how we know we are in Him:
6 The one who says he remains in Him should walk just as He walked.


YOU WILL KNOW HIM, intimately, and personally IN YOUR HEART (Human Spirit).
YOU WILL SEE THE FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT as it manifests in your LIFE and to others.
YOU WILL SEE IT as it Manifests LOVE For OTHERS, such as Mat. 25:34-40.

You will have TOTAL TRUST IN HIM!

John 10:27-28 (HCSB)
27 My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish—ever!
No one will snatch them out of My hand.

Matthew 7:23 (HCSB)
23 Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’

Matthew 25:12 (HCSB)
12 “But he replied, ‘I assure you: I do not know you!’

Galatians 5:22-23 (HCSB)
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith,
23 gentleness, self-control. Against such things there is no law.


Matthew 25:34-40 (HCSB)
34 Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you took care of Me; I was in prison and you visited Me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You something to drink?
38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or without clothes and clothe You?
39 When did we see You sick, or in prison, and visit You?’
40 “And the King will answer them, ‘I assure you: Whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.’

 

[notuptome]

It is ridiculously biased and narrow-minded to accuse Kayla of having "great ardor for tongues" in a thread about tongues. What about VCO's ardor regarding tongues? He started the thread with a nine-part study. Have you criticized him for spending so much time on it?

The reality is that what people happen to write in a thread about a particular topic says absolutely nothing about its importance in their lives relative to other topics.

As to "great offense for those who point out...", that's your opinion speaking. If you're offended, that's your problem. You don't speak for others.

To you it is accuse to me it simply pointing out an observation. The current practice of tongues does not resemble what we see in Acts. The whole concept of praying in tongues is in error.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

Kaylagrl
You differ with scripture. You are endeavoring to make the behavior fit the scripture not behave the way scripture teaches.

I am warning for folks to be certain of their salvation. A correct knowledge of Christ from the scriptures is essential to being saved by grace. How sad to consider that some will sit in church for many decades and perish because they did not know the Christ of the bible but sought one of their own making. Self will over Gods will.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Dino246]

To you it is accuse to me it simply pointing out an observation. The current practice of tongues does not resemble what we see in Acts. The whole concept of praying in tongues is in error.

That's a sidestep, not a response. It's clear you didn't think through what I wrote.

 

[notuptome]

That's a sidestep, not a response.

Better that than exchanging accusations that go nowhere,

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Waggles]

No one will go to hell because they think people who speaks in tongues is speaking from a demon.

How wrong can a person be?
You are calling praying in the Holy Spirit demonic.
You are blaspheming a wonderful gift - the indwelling Holy Spirit of God - demonic.
You are denying the gospel once delivered by Jesus and the Apostles.

 

[garee]

How wrong can a person be?
You are calling praying in the Holy Spirit demonic.
You are blaspheming a wonderful gift - the indwelling Holy Spirit of God - demonic.
You are denying the gospel once delivered by Jesus and the Apostles.

It would seem you are denying the foundation (Isaiah 28) and the law (1 Corinthians 14:21-22) .

In respect to the sign of..... God with stammering or mocking lips mock those who mock his very existence as in no faith. Yet for all that they still refuse to hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches. God simply sends a strong delusion so they can keep the lie and keep stopping up their ears .

No sign gifts. We walk by faith not after signs .

 

[kaylagrl]

Kaylagrl
You differ with scripture. You are endeavoring to make the behavior fit the scripture not behave the way scripture teaches.

I am warning for folks to be certain of their salvation. A correct knowledge of Christ from the scriptures is essential to being saved by grace. How sad to consider that some will sit in church for many decades and perish because they did not know the Christ of the bible but sought one of their own making. Self will over Gods will.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Yes, that will be sad for some people. Once again we have a disagreement on the word "perfect". I don't have any problem with my knowledge of Christ,thank you. One day we'll know who was right and by then it won't have mattered.

 

[Dino246]

Better that than exchanging accusations that go nowhere,

So stop making accusations. It was your accusation to which I responded.

 

[dcontroversal]

It would seem you are denying the foundation (Isaiah 28) and the law (1 Corinthians 14:21-22) .

In respect to the sign of..... God with stammering or mocking lips mock those who mock his very existence as in no faith. Yet for all that they still refuse to hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches. God simply sends a strong delusion so they can keep the lie and keep stopping up their ears .

No sign gifts. We walk by faith not after signs .

Amen....and an evil, adulterous generation SEEKS AFTER SIGNS....Jesus was clear!!

 

[Waggles]

Amen....and an evil, adulterous generation SEEKS AFTER SIGNS....Jesus was clear!!

First unbelievers mock and blaspheme the Holy Spirit (God)
and go on to call Jesus evil and adulterous ...

15 And [Jesus] said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation.
16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues;
18 they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

 

[dcontroversal]

First unbelievers mock and blaspheme the Holy Spirit (God)
and go on to call Jesus evil and adulterous ...

15 And [Jesus] said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation.
16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues;
18 they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

So what....what I said was a direct biblical quote from Jesus and there is strong evidence that the last half of the chapter you quote from Mark was not in the earliest manuscripts.....

An evil and adulterous GENERATION SEEKS AFTER SIGNS.....<--JESUS SAID THIS....take it up with him!!!

And your a deceiver and false if you can say I called Jesus evil and adulterous pal!!!

 

[FollowHisSteps]

it's hopeless as I already tried to point out.
you can repeat yourself over and over and over as you, myself, Kayla and few others have done
people will continue to insist we said things we never said
I don't get the anger and hatred here though. there is really no excuse for that

There are various personality disorders that pick up on ideas, and can turn a conversation into
a dispute and wind up people to exploding point. You have to learn such a technique I think
from childhood, but it is of the flesh and destructive. You will notice only a few do this, because
it takes such a special ability. If you compare this to the work and fruits of the Spirit, you know
wherever its source it is not something we should do.