A NON-CHARISMATIC UNDERSTANDING OF TONGUES

[RickyZ]

Regardless of your position on tongues, that comment is completely inappropriate.

I don't think he understood what I was saying

 

[VCO]

See VOC? Everyone lumped in together. Does every Baptist believe OSAS and all of TULIP? No! Most mainstream Pentecostals do not believe tongues has anything to do with salvation. But we are accused of believing it because the holiness do, or some independent church does. See the other side of the coin?

Just so you know my handle is VCO.

Here is a point, that I do not understand.

Why do you care what Other Churches Teach and Believe about TONGUES ? ? ?

I do not care one bit what the Charismatic Church or the Pentecostals want to believe about tongues . I figure that is between them and GOD.

When I move, I must know how a prospective Church TEACHES on all subjects, including Tongues. First I get their DOCTRINAL STATEMENT OF FAITH, and Thoroughly go through it, every single STATEMENT. and write down EVERY QUESTION that I might Have, because I have found the hardest to detect is Terminology Differences. Then I go through their web pages, looking for clues in how they Fellowship after services, because I think Fellowship is Important. Then I call the Church and ASK for an appointment to Speak to the Senior Pastor, because I have a list of Questions that I want to clarify before I start attending Church there. You see, I believe that it is OUR personal responsibility NOT TO attend a church where we KNOW we have Doctrinal Differences with, and seek out a Church where we KNOW they teach what we BELIEVE. What about Churches that have NO DOCTRINAL STATEMENT OF FAITH, or are VERY VAGUE or HAVE NO SCRIPTURE REFERENCE FOR EVERY STATEMENT THEY CLAIM TO BELIEVE? That is easy, I ignore them and go on to different Church.

That is why it is so puzzling to me, that you find Other Churches Beliefs, SO UPSETTING ? ? ?

I am a Conservative Non-Denomination Evangelical.

 

[Absolutely]

Just so you know my handle is VCO.

Here is a point, that I do not understand.

Why do you care what Other Churches Teach and Believe about TONGUES ? ? ?

I do not care one bit what the Charismatic Church or the Pentecostals want to believe about tongues . I figure that is between them and GOD.

When I move, I must know how a prospective Church TEACHES on all subjects, including Tongues. First I get their DOCTRINAL STATEMENT OF FAITH, and Thoroughly go through it, every single STATEMENT. and write down EVERY QUESTION that I might Have, because I have found the hardest to detect is Terminology Differences. Then I go through their web pages, looking for clues in how they Fellowship after services, because I think Fellowship is Important. Then I call the Church and ASK for an appointment to Speak to the Senior Pastor, because I have a list of Questions that I want to clarify before I start attending Church there. You see, I believe that it is OUR personal responsibility NOT TO attend a church where we KNOW we have Doctrinal Differences with, and seek out a Church where we KNOW they teach what we BELIEVE. What about Churches that have NO DOCTRINAL STATEMENT OF FAITH, or are VERY VAGUE or HAVE NO SCRIPTURE REFERENCE FOR EVERY STATEMENT THEY CLAIM TO BELIEVE? That is easy, I ignore them and go on to different Church.

That is why it is so puzzling to me, that you find Other Churches Beliefs, SO UPSETTING ? ? ?

I am a Conservative Non-Denomination Evangelical.

You started a troll thread,not her.
You invoked mcarthurs smear campain against charismatics.
Why do you and him care what we believe?
Why does it bother you?

 

[7seasrekeyed]

This does explain a lot, no wonder they take so much offense if we show/posit it is not of the Holy Spirit

I learned quite a bit in that one sentence there

does not surprise me

 

[7seasrekeyed]

You should see the clip of Mcarthur mocking a teenage girl singing to Jesus ;"fill me"
He turns it into a sick sexual deal.
I KNOW demons are working through the man

I haven't seen that, but the devil hates tongues and seems to work through those who are self righteously involved with their own understanding

no Holy Spirit = pride, rebellion and hatred for a gift that the devil despises.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Regardless of your position on tongues, that comment is completely inappropriate.

So is his thought that I am not saved because I do not speak in tongues. Which is why this topic gets so heated in thei first place. And that is the problem.

Everyone hates tongues because they think everyone who teaches tongues thinks those who do not are blaspheming the spirit or are not saved (LIKE VCO said earlier)

Which is the problem.

If your going to judge one, you need to judge both.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You started a troll thread,not her.
You invoked mcarthurs smear campain against charismatics.
Why do you and him care what we believe?
Why does it bother you?

Do you ever give up?

He did not start a troll thread. He started a thread to give a different view. If you do not like this thread Go SOMEPLACE ELSE!!

 

[kaylagrl]

You're entitled to believe [/QUOTE][/QUOTE][/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

Did you like Emmy Kosgei music ?


I would like to tell you HOW I KNOW I WAS SAVED, and When the Holy Spirit came in, I will not leave any details out, but will be brief.

Back early January 1977 when I was 28 years old, (now I am 70), I met a gal at an all night Party. In a whirl wind romance of almost 6 months, we got married. And 6 months after that she demanded a divorce, Because I could not earn enough money to buy her what she wanted in life. SOME REASON. That was on Christmas EVE no less, when we were suppose to go to my parents house.

I sank into DEEP DEPRESSION, and in the last week of 1977, I attempted suicide THREE TIMES, during that week. I just wanted to CEASE to exist, so I did not care if I hurt my parents, I did not care if I hurt my bother and sister, and I did not care if I hurt my friends via my suicide. The first two times I had a pistol to my head, and that trigger was a fairly light trigger, so with the trigger half pulled, SHEAR TERROR CAME OVER ME, more TERROR than anyone with a knife to my throat could EVER put into me. The first time I felt that kind of FEAR, I dropped the Pistol and it landed on the bed. Then NEXT Night I tried again, and the SAME TERROR came over me, and I dropped the pistol, and it LANDED ON THE FLOOR! I have NO idea why that Pistol did not go off, as with the hammer cocked, and trigger have pulled. I must tell you, on that second night, I had my soon to be ex-wife, on the Phone, because I WANTED HER TO HEAR THE FATAL SHOT.

Two nights later, I tried for the Third Time. That afternoon, I saw the road crew pouring a thick layer of gravel on a dirt road near my house. That evening, I went to the bar and proceeded to get as drunk as three guy could ever get. When the bar closed, I got on my bike {Suzuki 185} and when home to DELIBERATELY Leave my helmet there, and then got on the bike, and rode to the LOOSE GRAVELED RODE. What I did when I got near the LOOSE GRAVEL, I am more ashamed of than anything else. I literally TAUNTED GOD, yelling, "If you want me, you can have me, ANYWHERE YOU WANT ME ON THIS MILE!" Please, do not think it is alright to test GOD like that, I KNEW IT WAS WRONG!! He had every right to let me kill myself that night.

I opened it to full throttle, wide open, and with NO HELMET, and leaning out over the handle bars, so that I would hit head first with NO HELMET, when I lost control.

I hit END of the loose Gravel mile, the most dangerous surface you can ride a bike on, and came out on the pavement. I stopped the bike and looked back at the loose gravel rode for a few seconds, in bewilderment. I went home very slowly, about 2:00 AM, and sat up until about 5:00 AM, Sobering UP, and wondering what just HAPPENED! I walked to my bedroom, and as I entered, a STARTLING THOUGHT ENTERED MY HEAD. I cannot ride a bike like that, even SOBER!" I realized that THAT GOD HAD TO HAVE REACHED DOWN AND GRABBED MY BIKE AND SAID, "NO YOU DON'T, I HAVE A PLAN FOR YOUR LIFE!"

SUDDENLY WAVE AFTER WAVE OF EXTREME GUILT WASHED OVER ME, NOT JUST FOR ATTEMPTING SUICIDE, BUT MY WHOLE LIFESTYLE WAS A OFFENCE TO MY LORD. I started weeping uncontrollably on my knees at first, but later on I was Prostrate, CONTINUALLY PRAYING, PLEASE FORGIVE ME, PLEASE FORGIVE ME! I Cried and Prayed like that FOR OVER AN HOUR OR MORE.

THEN SOMETHING HAPPENED TO ME! I either Had a GOD GIVEN DREAM, or A VISION, and I cannot tell you for sure which. If it was a DREAM, it was the MOST VIVID DREAM I EVER HAD. I was still CRYING and Praying, LORD FORGIVE ME, Please FORGIVE ME!, on my KNEES, AT THE FOOT OF THE CROSS, LOOKING UP AND REACHING UP TO HIM. Through the tears I notice NAILS WERE THROUGH HIS WRISTS, and not in the hands. No one at that time ever mention that JEWS consider the Wrist to be part of the Hands, and the only pictures I had seen they were in the PALM of the HANDS.

I even prayed, "LORD, if you have a purpose for my life, you will have come into it and do it. I CAN NOT DO IT, I AM MAKING A MESS OF IT." No one in the Lutheran Church EVER taught me to pray like that, I BELIEVE THE HOLY SPIRIT PUT THAT PRAYER IN MY HEART.

I was still on my KNEES reaching up to HIM and I SAW BLOOD DRIP FROM THE NAILS, and it FELL ON MY FOREARMS. To my Surprise, the BLOOD WAS WARM. I KNEW THAT MEANT, I WAS FORGIVEN.

That is where the DREAM or VISION Ended.

I knew I had TOTALLY SURRENDERED TO JESUS CHRIST, and would NEVER take it back.

Did HE TAKE ME UP ON THE OFFER ? ? ? OH YES, through many miracles, HE OPENED THE DOORS for me to become, with no Bible College, a Volunteer Protestant Chaplain, in two California maximum security Prisons, 9 years at on and 6 years at the last.

Even when I was called to deliver Sermons, I gather the Verses a particular subject. AND THRUST HIM TOTALLY TO GIVE ME WHAT HE WANTED TO SAY ABOUT THOSE VERSES. Never did I write out the sermon and read it to them. And every sermon lasted 45 minutes to an hour. I found I wanted to take sermon notes, because it was not ME, it was the LORD IN ME DELIVERING THE SERMONS.

I could tell you many more minor miracles HE DID, but some other time.

Brother, you certainly have an amazing testimony. And I'm glad you share it wherever you can. Certainly God delivered you for a purpose and he had a plan for your life. Anyone in ministry touches my heart. I traveled for 20yrs as I have said before and I know it is no small thing to stand in front of people and share the Word. Many people just cannot do it because of fear. I know what you mean when you say God gives you the words. I think you and I could sit and talk for hours on the things that we have seen God do. I hope just because we differ on one opinion that doesn't mean that we cannot have respect for one another. I have deep respect for those in ministry and those who are willing to go into missions. I'm sure there are things that we can agree on. Blessings!

 

[7seasrekeyed]

I'm not so sure - re-read the passages about blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, and then tell me those who deny an authentic occurrence aren't committing that very act.

oh don't you know?

they own the Holy Spirit

 

[kaylagrl]

More your reactions point to a greater concern for tongues that for any other bible doctrine. Great ardor for tongues great offense for those who point out the bible does not support the behavior.

No, your opinion is that the Bible doesn't support the behavior. Our understanding of "perfect" differs. Those who say tongues is either gibberish or demons is a great offence to us. So there's that. The thread is on tongues, "greater concern" is also your biased opinion.



You don't believe that there are people in your church that are pretending to be Christians? You are fully assured that everyone in your church is genuine in their profession of faith?

Are you? Your inference that Pentecostals are not genuine or saved is both offensive and ridiculous. You have no cause to say such a thing and zero facts to back up your claim.


How does one remain in Christ. Does Christ ever allow any of His to be lost? If Jesus has saved us we are saved. No iffy qualifications just grace imputed to us and our sin all of our sin imputed to Him.

Not turning VOC's thread into an OSAS argument.


I have only pondered the question that cannot really be answered. You cannot answer the question any better than I can because we cannot see into the heart. Walking in Christ is a continuing work of sanctification not salvation.


I am not against Pentecostals or charismatics. I am against behaviors and doctrines that are in opposition to the word of God.


Well you seem to be against them by what you say here. They aren't saved, and they speak in tongues through demon power. Correct? If I recall you and I had this discussion before and that is your belief. Tongues is not in opposition to the Word of God. We differ on whether they have ceased. Simple.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[kaylagrl]

Just so you know my handle is VCO.


Oops, sorry! I need a name to call you. I think is just made the same mistake in the last post!


Here is a point, that I do not understand.

Why do you care what Other Churches Teach and Believe about TONGUES ? ? ?

Actually I don't, just answering here in the forum. We traveled in all denominations and plenty did not believe in tongues. We didn't preach it in places that didn't believe it. But once we went to a Baptist church and after the service we were asked to go to a room behind the platform. When we walked in about 20 people were praying in tongues. We went to a Methodist church once where they believed in speaking in tongues. There are Catholics who believe in tongues. It's far from exclusive to the Pentecostals. But again,traveled in all denominations, and did not preach tongues where they did not believe or practice it.




I do not care one bit what the Charismatic Church or the Pentecostals want to believe about tongues . I figure that is between them and GOD.

It is between them and God. Could you fellowship with Pentecostals? I don't know a church I can go into and not be comfortable. And I don't care if people don't believe in tongues. But I do care if someone is saying it's done by demon power. That is ridiculous.



When I move, I must know how a prospective Church TEACHES on all subjects, including Tongues. First I get their DOCTRINAL STATEMENT OF FAITH, and Thoroughly go through it, every single STATEMENT. and write down EVERY QUESTION that I might Have, because I have found the hardest to detect is Terminology Differences. Then I go through their web pages, looking for clues in how they Fellowship after services, because I think Fellowship is Important. Then I call the Church and ASK for an appointment to Speak to the Senior Pastor, because I have a list of Questions that I want to clarify before I start attending Church there. You see, I believe that it is OUR personal responsibility NOT TO attend a church where we KNOW we have Doctrinal Differences with, and seek out a Church where we KNOW they teach what we BELIEVE.

While I do think it's good to attend a church that believes as you do right now I'm attending a church with a Pentecostal pastor. Some in the church believe in tongues some don't. The church use to be a church that forbids music. That is what the last pastor believed. Myself and my family were the very first group to ever sing in the church. We have people in this church that believe OSAS. We have an old man that votes liberal and nothing or no one will change his mind. And YET, we all worship in harmony. We have fellowship together. Imagine that!!






What about Churches that have NO DOCTRINAL STATEMENT OF FAITH, or are VERY VAGUE or HAVE NO SCRIPTURE REFERENCE FOR EVERY STATEMENT THEY CLAIM TO BELIEVE? That is easy, I ignore them and go on to different Church.

I'd agree with that completely...

That is why it is so puzzling to me, that you find Other Churches Beliefs, SO UPSETTING ? ? ?

As I said above I don't. Just having a discussion same as you are.

I am a Conservative Non-Denomination Evangelical.

Well I'm a Pentecostal attending a former Christian church with a Pentecostal pastor and a salt and pepper crowd and you know what? That is what heaven will be so we better get use to it

 

[Dino246]

So is his thought that I am not saved because I do not speak in tongues. Which is why this topic gets so heated in thei first place. And that is the problem.

Everyone hates tongues because they think everyone who teaches tongues thinks those who do not are blaspheming the spirit or are not saved (LIKE VCO said earlier)

Which is the problem.

If your going to judge one, you need to judge both.

Like I said, "Regardless of your position on tongues". In other words, such a comment would be inappropriate from either camp.

Instead of challenging only ideas, you made a direct, personal attack. That is inappropriate, and it doesn't matter what he called you first. This is not a context where self-defense justifies one's actions.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Like I said, "Regardless of your position on tongues". In other words, such a comment would be inappropriate from either camp.

Instead of challenging only ideas, you made a direct, personal attack. That is inappropriate, and it doesn't matter what he called you first. This is not a context where self-defense justifies one's actions.

I stated a fact, His belief (that all people who do not speak in tongues) are not saved, was the problem

Not everyone who speaks in tongues believes that way,,so it is NOT a belief in tongues that is the issue, it is the belief that the rest blaspheme the spirit. Which is an UNPARDONABLE sin, Meaning they are in an unforgiven state,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So there you according to you we have committed the unpardonable sin and are lost

You sir are the problem

I need to Apologize, after going back and looking

This should say your BELIEF sir, is the problem.

I can see how this can be taken as a personal atttack. And that would be correct as stated, forgive me.

 

[RickyZ]

So is his thought that I am not saved because I do not speak in tongues. Which is why this topic gets so heated in thei first place. And that is the problem.

Everyone hates tongues because they think everyone who teaches tongues thinks those who do not are blaspheming the spirit or are not saved (LIKE VCO said earlier)

Which is the problem.

If your going to judge one, you need to judge both.

I never said you weren't saved because you don't speak in tongues. That is one of the falsehoods that some tongues talkers preach and it is flat out WRONG.

What I said is that the Bible very clearly shows that if you attribute a work of the Holy Spirit to satan, you are blaspheming the Holy Spirit. That's the Bible, not me. All I suggested is that those who claim ALL tongues are the work of satan or a demon are treading dangerously close to that line.

 

[RickyZ]

Do you ever give up?

He did not start a troll thread. He started a thread to give a different view. If you do not like this thread Go SOMEPLACE ELSE!!

Repeating an argument that's been made for years isn't a different view. It's just more of the same old debate.

 

[RickyZ]

You're entitled to believe


Brother, you certainly have an amazing testimony. And I'm glad you share it wherever you can. Certainly God delivered you for a purpose and he had a plan for your life. Anyone in ministry touches my heart. I traveled for 20yrs as I have said before and I know it is no small thing to stand in front of people and share the Word. Many people just cannot do it because of fear. I know what you mean when you say God gives you the words. I think you and I could sit and talk for hours on the things that we have seen God do. I hope just because we differ on one opinion that doesn't mean that we cannot have respect for one another. I have deep respect for those in ministry and those who are willing to go into missions. I'm sure there are things that we can agree on. Blessings!

But if a minister teaches a falsehood, isn't he accountable to God for every person he's sent in the wrong direction?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I never said you weren't saved because you don't speak in tongues. That is one of the falsehoods that some tongues talkers preach and it is flat out WRONG.

You can not have it both ways, if I am commiting the anpardonable sin, I am lost. Because Jesus said that sin can not be forgiven.

What I said is that the Bible very clearly shows that if you attribute a work of the Holy Spirit to satan, you are blaspheming the Holy Spirit. That's the Bible, not me. All I suggested is that those who claim ALL tongues are the work of satan or a demon are treading dangerously close to that line.

No. I am not attributing the work of the holy spirit to satan, If the HS wishes to speak through people in an unknown tongue, he will do it.

You ASSUME that ALL people who speak tongues speak through the HS, that would be an ASSUMPTION that can not be proven.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Repeating an argument that's been made for years isn't a different view. It's just more of the same old debate.

He still gave a view.

If people are allowed to open pro tongues threads to give their view. Then people are allowed to open a thread giving an apposing view.
What your doing is practicing the old way of do as I say, not as I do.

So we either cut off ALL tongues threads, Or we have to allow the opening of differing threads with BOTH VIEWS. Without attacking EITHER ONE!

 

[RickyZ]

I stated a fact, His belief (that all people who do not speak in tongues) are not saved, was the problem

Not everyone who speaks in tongues believes that way,,so it is NOT a belief in tongues that is the issue, it is the belief that the rest blaspheme the spirit. Which is an UNPARDONABLE sin, Meaning they are in an unforgiven state,

While the first part is absolutely not what I said, as for the second part - if the shoe fits...

It's not that not speaking in tongues gets you in trouble, I'm fine with that. The Bible clearly says not all of us will (altho Paul said it is the one gift he wished we all would do).

It's saying anyone who does so has a demon - THAT"S where you go off track and put yourself in the cross hairs.

So, to clarify, not speaking in tongues is ok. Saying all those who do are demon-driven IS EXTREMELY DANGEROUS.