Not By Works
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“Faith without works is dead” does not mean that we are saved by faith and works. If someone merely says-claims they have faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14)
It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*
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UnderGrace
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So then you stating that "works" are part of salvation?
If that's how you interpret those verses. Can you find any other meaning?
If A = B and B = C, then A = C also.
If works are a part of faith, and faith is required for salvation, then ... ? Seems obvious.
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UnderGrace
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Works do not save! Only CHRIST saves!
Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6)
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UnderGrace
Guest
Works do not save! Only CHRIST saves!
Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6)
Well it seems you have changed you mind then
Well it seems you have changed you mind then
Nope! I said the same thing!
Faith is not possible without works!
Salvation not possible without faith!
Only Christ saves!
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UnderGrace
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Actually faith is possible without works, faith precedes works.
NOT ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE
James 2:14-26 King James Version (KJV)
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
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Poinsetta
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UnderGrace
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and he was called the Friend of God.
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Well you understand these lines then you will understand James
But with the X given, I see we have nothing more to discuss
Works has no, absolute ZERO, part in being saved/justified as per the OP
You are reading into those verses THE WRONG INTERPRETATION. GOD DOES NOT CONTRADICT HIMSELF:
Titus 3:5-11 (HCSB)
5 He saved us— not by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
6 He poured out this ⌊Spirit⌋ on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that having been justified by His grace, we may become heirs with the hope of eternal life.
8 This saying is trustworthy. I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed God might be careful to devote themselves to good works. These are good and profitable for everyone.
9 But avoid foolish debates, genealogies, quarrels, and disputes about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.
10 Reject a divisive person after a first and second warning,
11 knowing that such a person is perverted and sins, being self-condemned.
2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.
Ephesians 2:5 (HCSB)
5 made us alive with the Messiah even though we were dead in trespasses. You are saved by grace!
Ephesians 2:8-9 (HCSB)
8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift—
9 not from works, so that no one can boast.
Romans 11:6 (HCSB)
6 Now if by grace, then it is not by works; otherwise grace ceases to be grace.
How GOOD do you think YOU HAVE TO BE ? ? ?
Here is HOW GOOD YOU HAVE TO BE:
James 2:10 (NIV)
10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.
1 Peter 2:13-15 (NKJV)
13 Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake, whether to the king as supreme,
14 or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good.
15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men--
Here is an Ordinance of man, you probably BREAK DAILY, as well as MANY OTHER Ordinances of man:
REMEMBER YOU ARE GUILTY OF BREAKING ALL OF THE LAW.
Yes he is an immature teenager who thinks he is funny, that has been banned SEVERAL TIMES, and he rejoins under a new name, with the SAME M.O. We just ignore him. May be the Moderator should implement a change in the rules that you have to be regular for 6 months to use those bad icons.
Let's examine James 2:14-26.
In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no evidential works to validate his claim. That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, “Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!
In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe in/have in/trust in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.
In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith (which is like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree) or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims they have faith but lack resulting evidential works, then they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.
In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. .The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the “sense” in which Abraham was “justified by works.” He was shown to be righteous.
In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It does not mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.
In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.
In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).
In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:
1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works will be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness.
God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, “acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, “they declared God just..” This is the “sense” in which God was “justified,” He was shown to be righteous
Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds.
In James 2:25, Rahab believed in the Lord with authentic faith (Joshua 2:9-13), requested "kindness" (2:12), received the promise of kindness (2:14), and hung out the "scarlet line" (2:21), as the demonstration of her authentic faith. She showed that her faith in God was not a dead faith by her works, just as all genuine believers show theirs.
In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works (Ephesians 2:5-10).
Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-26).
*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.*
So once again, it is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-26). *Perfect Harmony*
Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. (All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful). No fruit at all demonstrates there is no root.
Well it seems you have changed you mind then
Nice, from my experience debating with Christians who love to use that James verse, faith without works is dead, they tend to rely on circular reasoning:
You only need to believe to be saved, no works required.
But if you don't show works after you are saved, you are not really saved, because it shows you don't really believe.
Yet, you only need to believe to be saved, no works required.
And so on and so forth.
Their definition of faith clearly includes works. But they don't want to contradict Paul so they sneak in works thru the backdoor, by relying on circular arguments.
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UnderGrace
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UnderGrace
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It is logically and theologically absurd to claim that a salvation which is apart from works, is not recognizable except by works.
Nice, from my experience debating with Christians who love to use that James verse, faith without works is dead, they tend to rely on circular reasoning:
You only need to believe to be saved, no works required.
But if you don't show works after you are saved, you are not really saved, because it shows you don't really believe.
Yet, you only need to believe to be saved, no works required.
And so on and so forth.