What is falling away as mentioned in Hebrews 6?

[John146]

It seems to me you are changing what you said earlier: (post #3)

First of all, let's recognize the audience...the Hebrews in the last days. This is not Church Age doctrine. During this time of the last days before the Lord's second coming, a man can fall away from the Lord after receiving life, how? By taking the mark of the beast, one will be condemned for eternity. During this time period one must "endure till the end".

What do you mean by "this is not church age doctrine"? To me that means you are saying that Hebrews is not doctrine (teaching) for the church today? (But now you are saying it is not only for the Hebrews?)

Doctrine is direct teaching to a certain audience. Hebrews is doctrine for Israel in the last days. We certainly can glean all sorts of applications and useful information for today. As I like to say, all Scripture is for us but not all is to us.

 

[Chester]

Lol, you need to stop with your “preconcieved” idea stuff. Because that is exactly what your doing. Your trying to disprove OSAS. Because you do not believe it, so you will NEVER see a passage that even hints that it may be ok.

Here is what the passage says.

It is impossible, .........., to renew them to repentance,

We can stop right here, the actual theme of the comment is complete as stated.

Then the text goes on...


for again they crucify him on the cross. Putting him to open shame

After this we have the WHY the can not be renewed, and the reason is, Christ would have to be CRUCIFIED AGAIN for whatever CAUSED the to lose salvation in the first place. THIS IDEA (that one can fall away) puts christ to open shame. (The law states one can be renewed once a year because each yea the priest goes in sacrificing bulls and goats)

And just so there is no argument, The author does not stop here

7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

We first see the word “For” which is translated. Truely, As it stands, verily verily, indeed, surely. In other words. Here is the truth of the matter.

Second, we see a passage on fruit bearing, and blessings.

If it produces fruit which is useful. It recieves blessing (reward)

If it bears thorns and briers, which helps no one, It 9the work) is rejected. Whos end is to be burned

But the CLINCHER which destroys the thoought this means one can lose salvation, is the fact even the wood hay straw that is produced after tried by fire. Just as in 1 cor 3, It is NEAR to be cursed. Or as paul said, STILL SAVED, even as THROUGH FIRE (he has lost everything he earned in a fire, but he himself is saved.
You can NOT in context based on these FACTS make heb 6 to be saying SALVATION HAS EVER BEEN LOST.


Instead of tryign to find a bible that says what you want. Read the whole thing in context of the book, the passagem, and EVERYTHING that is said in that moment.

LOL! Probably best to just lay the issue down!

I will let you have and believe what you wrote above. I will just stick with what the author of Hebrews wrote.

 

[Chester]

Doctrine is direct teaching to a certain audience. Hebrews is doctrine for Israel in the last days. We certainly can glean all sorts of applications and useful information for today. As I like to say, all Scripture is for us but not all is to us.

So what you are saying is that the doctrinal teaching of Hebrews does not hold as doctrine for the church today. (But we can learn from it)

I disagree.

But thanks for clarifying your view and I understand better what you mean.

 

[Chester]

Lol, you need to stop with your “preconcieved” idea stuff. Because that is exactly what your doing. Your trying to disprove OSAS. Because you do not believe it, so you will NEVER see a passage that even hints that it may be ok.

Here is what the passage says.

It is impossible, .........., to renew them to repentance,

We can stop right here, the actual theme of the comment is complete as stated.

Then the text goes on...


for again they crucify him on the cross. Putting him to open shame

After this we have the WHY the can not be renewed, and the reason is, Christ would have to be CRUCIFIED AGAIN for whatever CAUSED the to lose salvation in the first place. THIS IDEA (that one can fall away) puts christ to open shame. (The law states one can be renewed once a year because each yea the priest goes in sacrificing bulls and goats)

And just so there is no argument, The author does not stop here

7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

We first see the word “For” which is translated. Truely, As it stands, verily verily, indeed, surely. In other words. Here is the truth of the matter.

Second, we see a passage on fruit bearing, and blessings.

If it produces fruit which is useful. It recieves blessing (reward)

If it bears thorns and briers, which helps no one, It 9the work) is rejected. Whos end is to be burned

But the CLINCHER which destroys the thoought this means one can lose salvation, is the fact even the wood hay straw that is produced after tried by fire. Just as in 1 cor 3, It is NEAR to be cursed. Or as paul said, STILL SAVED, even as THROUGH FIRE (he has lost everything he earned in a fire, but he himself is saved.
You can NOT in context based on these FACTS make heb 6 to be saying SALVATION HAS EVER BEEN LOST.


Instead of tryign to find a bible that says what you want. Read the whole thing in context of the book, the passagem, and EVERYTHING that is said in that moment.

LOL! Probably best to just lay the issue down!

I will let you have and believe what you wrote above. I will just stick with what the author of Hebrews wrote.

Maybe we should just both adopt John146's view, then whatever doctrine is taught doesn't really matter for us today. It is only doctrine for the Jews in a different time period.

So then we could discuss the meaning of the Scripture without having to worry about OSAS or non- OSAS. That way both of us could lay aside our preconceived doctrines and just discuss the text. (Whoops, I mean you could lay aside your preconceived doctrine)

 

[stonesoffire]

EG

I

Lol, you need to stop with your “preconcieved” idea stuff. Because that is exactly what your doing. Your trying to disprove OSAS. Because you do not believe it, so you will NEVER see a passage that even hints that it may be ok.

Here is what the passage says.

It is impossible, .........., to renew them to repentance,

We can stop right here, the actual theme of the comment is complete as stated.

Then the text goes on...


for again they crucify him on the cross. Putting him to open shame

After this we have the WHY the can not be renewed, and the reason is, Christ would have to be CRUCIFIED AGAIN for whatever CAUSED the to lose salvation in the first place. THIS IDEA (that one can fall away) puts christ to open shame. (The law states one can be renewed once a year because each yea the priest goes in sacrificing bulls and goats)

And just so there is no argument, The author does not stop here

7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

We first see the word “For” which is translated. Truely, As it stands, verily verily, indeed, surely. In other words. Here is the truth of the matter.

Second, we see a passage on fruit bearing, and blessings.

If it produces fruit which is useful. It recieves blessing (reward)

If it bears thorns and briers, which helps no one, It 9the work) is rejected. Whos end is to be burned

But the CLINCHER which destroys the thoought this means one can lose salvation, is the fact even the wood hay straw that is produced after tried by fire. Just as in 1 cor 3, It is NEAR to be cursed. Or as paul said, STILL SAVED, even as THROUGH FIRE (he has lost everything he earned in a fire, but he himself is saved.
You can NOT in context based on these FACTS make heb 6 to be saying SALVATION HAS EVER BEEN LOST.


Instead of tryign to find a bible that says what you want. Read the whole thing in context of the book, the passagem, and EVERYTHING that is said in that moment.

EG

Loss of salvation was not the point EG. Were they tares?

 

[John146]

Maybe we should just both adopt John146's view, then whatever doctrine is taught doesn't really matter for us today. It is only doctrine for the Jews in a different time period.

So then we could discuss the meaning of the Scripture without having to worry about OSAS or non- OSAS. That way both of us could lay aside our preconceived doctrines and just discuss the text. (Whoops, I mean you could lay aside your preconceived doctrine)

Scripture has three audiences: Jews, Gentiles and the Church (1 Cor. 10:32).

We must determine through plain speech and context to whom is God speaking to, to whom does the doctrine apply? Getting the audience wrong can bring about false doctrine.

 

[garee]

Are you a "replacement theology" believer? The body of Christ has replaced the nation of Israel?

I believe the idea of replacement theology is not a biblical doctrine. The reformation has come. The body of Christ is the bride of Christ.
If any man of any nation does not have the Spirit of Christ the Holy Spirit of God then neither do they belong to Him,

All prophecy is designed to build of the church to include the book of Hebrew. God does not give private letters to some and not others..

You can call her Israel or the new named he named her Christian. One does not replace the other they compliment each other. Its men that desire to make it about flesh and blood, rather than faith in respect to the eternal not seen.

 

[John146]

All prophecy is designed to build of the church to include the book of Hebrew. God does not give private letters to some and not others..

Really? The instructions God gave Noah...who else were they to? The instructions given to Jonah...who else were they to?

Also, God has given specific promises to Israel that don't belong to the Church, but only to that nation specifically.

 

[oyster67]

Really? The instructions God gave Noah...who else were they to? The instructions given to Jonah...who else were they to?

Also, God has given specific promises to Israel that don't belong to the Church, but only to that nation specifically.

These messages and lessons are profitable to all of us, and we would do well to study them and take heed.

 

[John146]

These messages and lessons are profitable to all of us, and we would do well to study them and take heed.

There is application to us for sure, but there is doctrine specifically for the audience, the Hebrews in the last days, that is not meant to us.

 

[Dino246]

Scripture has three audiences: Jews, Gentiles and the Church (1 Cor. 10:32).

That isn't what the text of 1 Cor. 10:32 says. Here's the actual text, in the KJV (so you don't have to shut your eyes in fear):

32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

Nothing there at all about "the audience of Scripture".

While I agree that the text of Scripture does actually speak to all three groups, that verse doesn't say so.

We must determine through plain speech and context to whom is God speaking to, to whom does the doctrine apply? Getting the audience wrong can bring about false doctrine.

True. However, it seems that you have some different ideas than I and many others have regarding the intended audience. We can't all be correct.

Please don't respond with "I'm right and you're wrong." That would be silly, self-serving, arrogant, and logically fallacious.

 

[Dino246]

God does not give private letters to some and not others.

If you mean "The letters in Scripture are for everyone," then I agree with you. If you mean, "God never speaks privately to individuals or groups," then I wholeheartedly disagree. However, we've been over this before, and I don't think we're going to agree any time soon.

 

[Blik]

Maybe we should just both adopt John146's view, then whatever doctrine is taught doesn't really matter for us today. It is only doctrine for the Jews in a different time period.

So then we could discuss the meaning of the Scripture without having to worry about OSAS or non- OSAS. That way both of us could lay aside our preconceived doctrines and just discuss the text. (Whoops, I mean you could lay aside your preconceived doctrine)

We are told

 

[garee]

If you mean "The letters in Scripture are for everyone," then I agree with you. If you mean, "God never speaks privately to individuals or groups," then I wholeheartedly disagree. However, we've been over this before, and I don't think we're going to agree any time soon.

I am not saying he does not use his living interpretation the Bible now that we have it in full. But not adding any new revelations called private interpretation to confirm a matter the filling of the Holy Spirit to include healings tongue, baptism , or any other thing visible to the eye .

Private interpretations that give the illusion of a source of faith are used as win win even id proven wrong needed to support some doctrine not found in the Bible. They are simply used to widen the authority of God's word as a oral tradition of men who refuse to hear prophecy.

Below is the result of those who seem to need more that God was willing to reveal.... because thier Holy Mother asked it or because experience has asked it or I had a dream, or made a noise to include falling back slain in the spirit .The list is growing. .amkes me wonder when he comes will he find faith (Christ's) in the heart of men or men looking to the things seen the temporal

Pope Urban VIII on Private Revelation
His Holiness, Pope Urban VIII stated: "In cases which concern private revelations, it is better to believe than not to believe, for, if you believe, and it is proven true, you will be happy that you have believed, because our Holy Mother asked it. If you believe, and it should be proven false, you will receive all blessings as if it had been true, because you believed it to be true."(Pope Urban VIII, 1623-44)

 

[Blik]

We are told

0ops, something went wrong.
We are told that it is God and God alone who decides about our salvation so what we decide about it has absolutely no affect on the truth. We can let it be in God's hands.

What is the truth that we are to know is Christ. We are to die with Christ and accept His payment for our sin, then take on the body of Christ. That would mean that we are to live like Christ, know the laws of the Lord and live by them. This is our basic fundamental truth, all other scripture falls into it. If we see something different, something that disagrees with it we can know we are not understanding that scripture and we must look until we do understand.

 

[metanoia]

First of all, let's recognize the audience...the Hebrews in the last days. This is not Church Age doctrine. During this time of the last days before the Lord's second coming, a man can fall away from the Lord after receiving life, how? By taking the mark of the beast, one will be condemned for eternity. During this time period one must "endure till the end".

Hebrews was written to a group of first-century Christians (beginning of Church Age) who were in danger of giving up as many new converts found themselves being tested: exposed to fierce persecution, physically assaulted, cast into prison, and their homes plundered. While some believers accepted this adversity with joy, others were wavering in their newfound faith in Christ and were tempted to return to their former religion and its familiar practices. In addressing this issue, the author of Hebrews certainly had a difficult task to convince his readers not to turn their backs on Christ but to press on with confidence. The writer's solution was to demonstrate that Christ is the zenith of God's redemptive plan--prophesied under the Old Covenant and fulfilled in the New. The chief theme of Hebrews is the superiority of Christ and why it is worth enduring persecution for His sake. Because Christ is sufficient and supreme over all, there is no fear of death for those who will endure in the face of opposition. But there is fear of judgment for those who turn their backs on Christ and the gospel. The advent of Christ signals the beginning of the last days, thus supporting the notion of Christ as God's final revelation to man. Current believers need not worry about "taking the mark of the beast" or "enduring to the end" as believers will be raptured up with the Lord BEFORE His Second Coming. "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thess. 5:9) "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words." (1 Thess. 4:16-18). The Rapture of the Church will be a sudden and stupendous event that will mirror His post-Resurrection ascension to heaven (Acts 1:9-11). The "Second Coming" of Christ will not occur until AFTER the 7-year Tribulation Period during which the Anti-Christ will be revealed. "Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God." (2 Thess. 2:3-4) "For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He (Holy Spirit/Believers) who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed..." (2 Thess. 2:7-8). Believers are justified and made righteous through the redeeming blood of Jesus Christ, we are sanctified and sealed by the Holy Spirit, and are already glorified positionally by our Heavenly Father. Rest in the promises of our Lord and Savior: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall NEVER perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." (John 10:28). Christ tells believers that not "any man" can take away their eternal life and that includes ourselves. If we cannot save ourselves, then we most definitely cannot keep ourselves saved. REST in His Promises and GROW in His Holy Word.

 

[Melach]

Also, God has given specific promises to Israel that don't belong to the Church, but only to that nation specifically.

certain men have crept in, sowing division and bringing in new doctrines. all the promises of God are in Jesus Christ

2 Corinthians 1:20
For no matter how many promises God has made, they are "Yes" in Christ. And so through him the "Amen" is spoken by us to the glory of God.

the promise to Abraham is to his seed, who is Christ, and all in Christ inherit the promises:

Galatians 3:29
If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

there is no more divisions between jew and gentile(gal 3:28) there is one new man in Christ.

Ephesians 2:11-17
Therefore remember that formerly you who are Gentiles in the flesh and called uncircumcised by the so-called circumcision (that done in the body by human hands)— remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

For He Himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has torn down the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing in His flesh the law of commandments and decrees. He did this to create in Himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace and reconciling both of them to God in one body through the cross, by which He extinguished their hostility.

He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. For through Him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

he who has ears let him hear.
Lord open hearts and minds to the truth. let your truth shout from the housetops with a silent thunder, deliver us, lead us into all truth. amen.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

"For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He (Holy Spirit/Believers) who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed..." (2 Thess. 2:7-8). Believers are justified and made righteous through the redeeming blood of Jesus Christ, we are sanctified and sealed by the Holy Spirit, and are already glorified positionally by our Heavenly Father. Rest in the promises of our Lord and Savior: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall NEVER perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." (John 10:28). Christ tells believers that not "any man" can take away their eternal life and that includes ourselves. If we cannot save ourselves, then we most definitely cannot keep ourselves saved. REST in His Promises and GROW in His Holy Word.

Agreed. (enjoyed and agree with your entire post, though only quoting a portion )

Good post, and welcome to CC. Hope to see you around the boards.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

EG

I


EG

Loss of salvation was not the point EG. Were they tares?

Yes loss of salvation was the point

We repent to get saved, Not being able to be renewed to repentance means resaved

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Maybe we should just both adopt John146's view, then whatever doctrine is taught doesn't really matter for us today. It is only doctrine for the Jews in a different time period.

So then we could discuss the meaning of the Scripture without having to worry about OSAS or non- OSAS. That way both of us could lay aside our preconceived doctrines and just discuss the text. (Whoops, I mean you could lay aside your preconceived doctrine)

Or we could just read the text in context, and not make it say what it does not say