A NON-CHARISMATIC UNDERSTANDING OF TONGUES

[kaylagrl]

Right,same thing I should have done. smh

 

[VCO]

Not to worry, it's a confusing thread all around.

We are NOT CONFUSED.

 

[dcontroversal]

Where did I make a flip remark about you reading the NT?! You said people in the thread were confused, and I made the remark that if they read the NT they would know the difference. I did not say you! So perhaps it is you who is sensitive, no?

Now you are saying I'm dishonest. Who has the bigger reason to be offended? How bout we simmer down and try this again. What is it that you want addressed, what are you trying to say that is being misunderstood? No one is trying to be dishonest with you.

No, you did not....you said...

kaylagrl said:
If you have read the NT you would not be confused.

Now you are changing what you said....can you see why I question the honesty of people sometimes.....

 

[VCO]

Where do you get the idea that a demon can cause someone speaking in tongues to curse Christ by mistake? What do you base that on? Pentecostals do the exact same as was done in the NT. One speaks one interprets. Tongues is to edify the church and glorify God. That has nothing to do with unbelieving Jews.

Now,as to your warning, this is a discussion forum and that is what is done here. I am discussing. If you do not like this you can skip my posts. But I do not take kindly to being warned by anyone but those in authority to do so. Calm down and you present your side and I'll present mine. If we disagree that's fine. It's not the end of the world.

The you viciously Criticised my Study without even thoroughly reading it.

It is in Segment 2, 5th and 6th Paragraph. Paragraph 4 has part of the paragraph before and after the long list of Problems mention in the Corinthian Church is IN THE MIDDLE.

EVERY SINGLE EXAMPLE IN THE BIBLE WITH TONGUES SPEAKING, had Unbelieving Jews HEARING the Mighty Works of GOD. That includes Cornelius's house. The UNBELIEVING JEWS were the JEWISH BELIEVERS that came along with Peter. AT THAT TIME, they did not believe that GOD could save Gentiles, in the same way HE DID JEWS. Remember in the TEMPLE the Gentiles could not go any further into the TEMPLE than the Court of the GENTILES.

Notice the GENTILES has to stand behind that wall where the Mikvahs were lacated.

I am calm, the ONLY REASON that I do not want to debate this is study with YOU, this study was started in the early 80's, when my wife's sister's thought I led her astray, because she used to speaking in tongues, and then SHE HERSELF had the Holy Spirit convince it was all a COUNTERFEIT. Then I had several people want to DEBATE me via LETTERS, and then I got a computer in 1995, one at a time, I put it on three different WEBSITES, and HUNDRED's of people want to debate men. I have been CALLED VICIOUS NAMES because I Did a NON- Charismatic Understanding On Tongues. Even my sister-inlaws YELLED at me across the Dinner Table. I mean the VICIOUS ATTACKS ALWAYS CONTINUED, AND YOURS WAS NOT THE WORSE. I know EVERYTHING YOU WILL SAY want to say, I KNOW YOUR ARGUMENTS BY HEART, because I HAVE HEARD THEM ALL, OVER, and OVER, and OVER , and OVER again. I literally KNOW I have not heard any NEW ARGUMENT IN over 20 years. ALL TRYING TO CONVINCE ME THEY Have the REAL GIFT, and IT IS ONLY A COUNTERFEIT of what the APOSTLES DID. There is NOTHING TO DEBATE, because I believe 100%, the TRUE Gift of Tongues is way the Holy Spirit has had me write it. I am TIRED OF DISCUSSING TONGUES.

 

[Didymous]

They would be better off just sticking to " hey the power of God ceased when we got the Bible"
Because in the tongues thingy they get owned and go personal

You sound like a high school kid.

 

[wolfwint]

Well kaylagrl, when the pentecostal movement came 1907 to Kassel germany it is reportet that their was singing and confessing sins. And the prophecy told that a mighty pentecost will come.
It is also reportet that people fall backward on the floor, crying, screaming, loud handclapping, noising like a horse, half conciensless people sank to the floor. (the list is not complete) The meetings fall out of controll so the police had to stopp them.
The same events we find during the torontoblessings.

Events like laughing in the spirit, silent in the spirit, holy rolling, and so one. People without of controle.

You rely believe such events came out of the Holy Spirit?

This doctrine seperatet believers in Christ till today, as no other doctrine
did.

From our side, we cant see in it Gods Spirit behind.
And from Pentecostal/Charismatic side, we are not real Christians because we are deny the Power of the Holy Spirit, because we hinder the baptism of the Holy Spirit in our iives for to empower us.

According my understanding only one of these both views is true.
It is difficult for each side to realize to be maby wrong.

Thats says nothing about not beiing brother and sister in the Lord!!!

 

[UnderGrace]

Gotta love how charismatics red x a truthful statement about the completed word of God.....zero honesty!!!!

I get them most always from Catholics and Charismatics ....hmmm

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Can you elaborate how the word "baptize" as a transliteration has caused problems?

It causes problems because churches have made it a “religious” word. Which has led to so many mistranslations or beliefs which would never have been if they would have translated the word insted.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Sure....by transliterating instead of translating it leaves the word open to be construed anyway a man or religion wants to construe it.....the word for sprinkle is Rantizo and is used when Jesus references the cups and platters......the word Baptizo orginally comes from a word that describes a ship SINKING under the surface of the water, hence it's use in representing A BURIAL.....we do not throw people on the ground and toss a handful of dirt on them....we PUT THEM UNDER THE GROUND or sealed in a tomb <--Note....Jesus was sealed in a tomb because a RICH GUY ->JOSEPH GAVE UP A TOMB FOR HIM....otherwise he would have been put UNDER the dirt.....there is one biblical was to BAPTIZE with water....and immersion is IT!

Its more than this, Baptizo was used as the boat. But it was also used in the work of taking a garment and “dyeing” or “baptizo” that shirt with a dye to give it color. A “baptizer” was actually a person who would dye garments.

People forget I think that we are told the children of Israel were baptized into moses. Our baptism into christ would be the same type of baptism. Placed in union with Christ, as they were placed into union with Moses (moses being the head)

Then you had the ceremonial washings of the law called baptisms. Also spoken of in the NT. Which represented taking the utensils of the temple and washing them.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So then some churches teach there is more than one indwelling of the Holy Spirit, is this the place of contention?

You got it

They say pray for the abptism of the spirit so you can get tongues, Or it is the infilling of the HS who takes our bodies and gives us an outpouring of special gifts like tongues or prophecying or healings or whatever.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Okay, so how does this affect the baptism/in-filling of the holy spirit that people keep talking about?

It affects it by applying it in a way which is not according to what they actually are.

John said Jesus (the lamb of God who woud take away the sins of the world) would baptize with the spirit, Jesus reiterated that people would be baptized by the spirit. It all had to do as apposed to being baptised in water (which represented cleansing) so baptism of the spirit (the fulfillment of the symbol of water baptism) must be translated in that way.

Rom 6, Gal 3, 1 cor 12, and col 2 are examples of baptism which are done by the spirit. (Note than many think they are all talking of water baptism which is false)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Not quite sure I am understanding you. They all spoke in tongues, each one. One didn't speak in tongues and another use another gift. They all spoke in tongues. Baptized in the Holy Spirit.

Yes they all spoke in tongues, I am not denying that

Byt NOT because of baptism of the spirit. Their spiritual cleansing did not cause them to speak in tongues, Their ANOINTING of the HS allowed the HS to speak through them in tongues..

Thats my point sis.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Not aware there was another thread. But it really doesn't matter. This is a discussion forum, no one can say don't discuss or debate whatever subject. People derail every-single-thread posted. People pick what they like and run with it. If a person doesn't want debate they are in the wrong place. For or against each side has a right to say what they believe and expect to be challenged. That is what happens in a discussion forum.

I agree sis. That was my point, if people are going to get mad and judge one person. They need to do the same for another.

When yu get mad at the one you disagree with, but allow the people you agree with to do the same. It is called beig a hypocrite. (Or do as I say, not what I do)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, perhaps people may mistake baptism to mean one or the other. But if they have any knowledge of the Bible they would know the difference...



Acts 1:4-5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

Matthew 3:11 "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Acts 11:15-16 "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' "And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning.

So the Bible is very clear about water baptism vs in filling. Baptized is used in both places. But it's clear they are not the same thing.

Your right

One represents being made spiritually clean

The other represents what happens with the HS in you

And do not forget the baptism of fire (hell) Jesus will baptise all people with the spirit or fire. You beter get the HS or you will suffer the fire, and as John said, He will eaither seperate you from the chaff and bring you into the barn (heaven) or he will burn with an unquenchable fire (this is hellfire)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I do try to correct the errors of tongue talkers. Like I said, they are often their own worst enemies, and a source of the confusion on the subject!

Sadly you can say this about both sides.

I think one takeaway from Corinthians is that while Paul wished we would all do it, he'd rather we not do it than do it wrong. A lot of people don't get that.

1 cor 14: 18 I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all; 19 yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.

I think paul made it clear what his wish was for in the church, About teaching others. Not about a bunch of people speaking in tongues..

Sadly I fear people have forgotten what the church is all about.. And that is not just the charismatic group. Most “mainstream” churches I feat have forgotten, and they are falling because they have failed to become all things for all people

 

[Agbarogi]

Thanks to all

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No, I've never heard anyone mistaking the meaning of Baptized in the Holy Ghost. It's a simple turn of phrase. No one mistakes water baptism for being baptized with or in the Holy Spirit. smh

That is not the issue here sis, That is a different issue altogether

The issue here is people mistakes the meaningn of the baptism of the HS as a means of recieveing gifts, And not the anointing of the spirit where gifts really come from.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Note.....I was addressing the point EG was making.....did not say ALL, but rather many....and I know numerous people that have dealt with this....and even those that peddle the H.S. does not endwell the believer

And that was not even my main point..lol

 

[eternally-gratefull]

As for baptized “in” or “with”

The greek word can be translated either way

So to get context. All we have to do is go to scripture to see what it is

1. Paul tells us we have been baptised into the death and buial of Christ? Who has the power to do this? God
2 Paul talls us we were baptized INTO Christ. Again who has the power to do this, God!
3. Paul says we were baptized into his body. Again, Only God can do this and not only this, but paul says it was performed by the spirit.

Ps. Non of these passages speak of water baptizm. Baptize is used as an action word. They are stating we are literlaly baptized INTO those things.. (my point about not translating the word is shown here)

4. Paul tells us that our spiritual circumcision done by the hand of God, this is accomplished by being baptized by the one who raised Jesus from the dead (again the spirit)

So baptism of the spirit in biblical context is Jesus using the spirit to baptize or immerse us into these things, were we are spiriotually circumcised (cleansed or washed) and placed into vital union with christ, as the children of israel were baptized into moses.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If you have read the NT you would not be confused. I posted verses that make it clear. I don't see how anyone could mistake it. People here are confused about a lot of things...

They mistake it because

1. The word is transliterated not translated
2. They misunderstand what the words mean
3. They think one action (speaking in tongues) is a direc t reasult of the other (baptism of the spirit) which is wrong. Yes, Those people were baptised by the spirit (meaning they are completely clean washed and saved) but the gifts came because of the HS being placed our poure out into you.


If one thinks about it. The HS was baptized INTO YOU, not the other way around.. You were not baptised INTO the spirit. He was baptized INTO you