A NON-CHARISMATIC UNDERSTANDING OF TONGUES

[UnderGrace]

Part of ....and confusing water immersion with the Spiritual immersion into Christ when one is born again from above.....

Yes I see, @stonesoffire
puts it this way

I don't agree with this. The new birth is repentance and receiving the Spirit of Christ. Asking Jesus into your heart is what we hear all the time. This is our sealing. But, Holy Spirit baptism is the power of ministry to others and the edifiying of our own being. We are clean through the Word. Jesus, the living Word, and continual cleansing by the word and sprinkling of blood on our conscience.


So then it would seem that @stonesoffire sees salvation and holy spirit baptism as two separate events.

So, in this view being saved is a separate event from a Holy Spirit Baptism...hmmm

 

[dcontroversal]

Yes I see, @stonesoffire
puts it this way

I don't agree with this. The new birth is repentance and receiving the Spirit of Christ. Asking Jesus into your heart is what we hear all the time. This is our sealing. But, Holy Spirit baptism is the power of ministry to others and the edifiying of our own being. We are clean through the Word. Jesus, the living Word, and continual cleansing by the word and sprinkling of blood on our conscience.


So then it would seem that @stonesoffire sees salvation and holy spirit baptism as two separate events.

So, in this view being saved is a separate event from a Holy Spirit Baptism...hmmm

Yeah....and I do not buy that for one minute.....

 

[UnderGrace]

Yeah....and I do not buy that for one minute.....

Yes, I agree.

 

[kaylagrl]

Wrong conclusion. Man has a spirit given him by God. Men do many things by the power of their spirit wholly apart from the Holy Spirit and not a direct result of the influence of demons or evil spirits. Men determine what they will do by the strength of their spirit. We as Christians are to surrender our spirit to His Spirit. We are to resist the devil who is the price and power of this world.

Moses acted in his spirit when he struck the rock twice instead of one time as God instructed him. The devil did not make him do it. Moses acted according to his spirit and self will.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Hummm, so I'm doing it by my own power? That is less of an insult? Either way you're saying it's not of God. Your entitled to your own opinion I suppose. I think you're wrong according to Scripture. I don't see where the Bible says tongues is not for today.

 

[kaylagrl]

Mark 3:
A House Divided
(Matthew 12:22-30; Luke 11:14-23)
20Then Jesus went home, and once again a crowd gathered, so that He and His disciples could not even eat. 21When His family heard about this, they went out to take custody of Him, saying, “He is out of His mind.”
22And the scribes who had come down from Jerusalem were saying, “He is possessed by Beelzebul,” and, “By the prince of the demons He drives out demons.”
23So Jesus called them together and began to speak to them in parables: “How can Satan drive out Satan? 24If a kingdom is divided against itself, it cannot stand. 25If a house is divided against itself, it cannot stand. 26And if Satan is divided and rises against himself, he cannot stand; his end has come. 27Indeed, no one can enter a strong man’s house to steal his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man. Then he can plunder his house.
The Unpardonable Sin
(Matthew 12:31-32)
28Truly I tell you, the sons of men will be forgiven all sins and blasphemies, as many as they utter. 29But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of eternal sin.”
30Jesus made this statement because they were saying, “He has an unclean spirit.”

Are ya SURE you wanna stick to that statement? Granted there's a lot of falsehoods out there, but when ya lump them ALL under this banner you put yourself on a very slippery slope.

Mark 3:
A House Divided
(Matthew 12:22-30; Luke 11:14-23)
20Then Jesus went home, and once again a crowd gathered, so that He and His disciples could not even eat. 21When His family heard about this, they went out to take custody of Him, saying, “He is out of His mind.”
22And the scribes who had come down from Jerusalem were saying, “He is possessed by Beelzebul,” and, “By the prince of the demons He drives out demons.”
23So Jesus called them together and began to speak to them in parables: “How can Satan drive out Satan? 24If a kingdom is divided against itself, it cannot stand. 25If a house is divided against itself, it cannot stand. 26And if Satan is divided and rises against himself, he cannot stand; his end has come. 27Indeed, no one can enter a strong man’s house to steal his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man. Then he can plunder his house.
The Unpardonable Sin
(Matthew 12:31-32)
28Truly I tell you, the sons of men will be forgiven all sins and blasphemies, as many as they utter. 29But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of eternal sin.”
30Jesus made this statement because they were saying, “He has an unclean spirit.”

Are ya SURE you wanna stick to that statement? Granted there's a lot of falsehoods out there, but when ya lump them ALL under this banner you put yourself on a very slippery slope.

Not sure which statement you mean...

 

[kaylagrl]

Niether one of them fits sis, thats my point

Your right, no one had the HS until pentecost. At one moment, they were baptized by the HS (their sins were washed away) and annointed by the HS (He came into them, sealed them, and gave each of them gifts)

This infillng of the HS or baptism of the HS is a missaplication of many who believe in tongues..

When I use my gift, I am not filled, or baptized or whatever by the holy spirit. I m just by nature and power of the HS doing what he empowered or gifted me to do.

Not quite sure I am understanding you. They all spoke in tongues, each one. One didn't speak in tongues and another use another gift. They all spoke in tongues. Baptized in the Holy Spirit.

 

[kaylagrl]

Again,

Kelbyofgod opened a thread explaining the gift. And said he does not wish to discuss the issue, and only wanted tongues people in there


This thread is for those who wish to know why SOME do not believe in modern day tongues, and asked basically the same thing, If you want to read to find out why some disagree, fine, but if you want to fight, go find another thread..

If your going to judge one, you better judge the other.

Not aware there was another thread. But it really doesn't matter. This is a discussion forum, no one can say don't discuss or debate whatever subject. People derail every-single-thread posted. People pick what they like and run with it. If a person doesn't want debate they are in the wrong place. For or against each side has a right to say what they believe and expect to be challenged. That is what happens in a discussion forum.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I don't see where the Bible says tongues is not for today.

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. (1 Cor 13:8)

It is critical to understand that out of about 20 different spiritual gifts, Paul selected three specific gifts -- all related to supernatural revelations -- and said that they would come to an end. "Fail", "cease", and "vanish away" all mean exactly the same thing -- TERMINATED.

If we begin with the termination of genuine prophecies, that happened after the apostle John completed the book of Revelation (c 96 AD). Therefore tongues and supernatural knowledge would also have ceased around that time or shortly thereafter. Irenaeus of Lyons (France) lived between the 2nd and 3rd centuries. Here is what he reported:

"...For this reason does the apostle declare, "We speak wisdom among them that are perfect," terming those persons "perfect" who have received the Spirit of God, and who through the Spirit of God do speak in all languages, as he used Himself also to speak. In like manner we do also hear many brethren in the Church, who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light for the general benefit the hidden things of men, and declare the mysteries of God, whom also the apostle terms "spiritual," they being spiritual because they partake of the Spirit..." ( Against Heresies, Book V, Chapter VI).

It should be noted that he is speaking about LANGUAGES not babbling (as today).

 

[dcontroversal]

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. (1 Cor 13:8)

It is critical to understand that out of about 20 different spiritual gifts, Paul selected three specific gifts -- all related to supernatural revelations -- and said that they would come to an end. "Fail", "cease", and "vanish away" all mean exactly the same thing -- TERMINATED.

If we begin with the termination of genuine prophecies, that happened after the apostle John completed the book of Revelation (c 96 AD). Therefore tongues and supernatural knowledge would also have ceased around that time or shortly thereafter. Irenaeus of Lyons (France) lived between the 2nd and 3rd centuries. Here is what he reported:

"...For this reason does the apostle declare, "We speak wisdom among them that are perfect," terming those persons "perfect" who have received the Spirit of God, and who through the Spirit of God do speak in all languages, as he used Himself also to speak. In like manner we do also hear many brethren in the Church, who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light for the general benefit the hidden things of men, and declare the mysteries of God, whom also the apostle terms "spiritual," they being spiritual because they partake of the Spirit..." ( Against Heresies, Book V, Chapter VI).

It should be noted that he is speaking about LANGUAGES not babbling (as today).

I will add....That which is complete (perfect) has come with the completion of Revelation...........!!

 

[kaylagrl]

The point EG is making is the fact that many conflate water immersion with being immersed into the Holy Spirit at the moment of belief......The Spirit indwells, seals and makes alive at the moment of faith <--the gifts in the 1st century A.D. were the results of this indwelling......Acts 2, the 50th day was a special ONE OFF EVENT and is primarily focused on the HOLY SPIRIT taking the place of Jesus as conforter, guide and teacher of the Lord's churches........

Yes, perhaps people may mistake baptism to mean one or the other. But if they have any knowledge of the Bible they would know the difference...



Acts 1:4-5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

Matthew 3:11 "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Acts 11:15-16 "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' "And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning.

So the Bible is very clear about water baptism vs in filling. Baptized is used in both places. But it's clear they are not the same thing.

 

[VCO]

Not quite sure I am understanding you. They all spoke in tongues, each one. One didn't speak in tongues and another use another gift. They all spoke in tongues. Baptized in the Holy Spirit.

Correction: WE ALL WERE IMMERSED {BAPTIZIED} BY THE HOLY SPIRIT into One Body, the Spiritual Body of Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:12-13 (KJV)
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body:
so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit [.HE is the Baptizer, not what HE immersed us into.] are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

2 Corinthians 13:5 (ESV)
5 Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

 

[VCO]

Wrong conclusion. Man has a spirit given him by God. Men do many things by the power of their spirit wholly apart from the Holy Spirit and not a direct result of the influence of demons or evil spirits. Men determine what they will do by the strength of their spirit. We as Christians are to surrender our spirit to His Spirit. We are to resist the devil who is the price and power of this world.

Moses acted in his spirit when he struck the rock twice instead of one time as God instructed him. The devil did not make him do it. Moses acted according to his spirit and self will.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Here is the proof that a man has a human spirit:

Zechariah 12:1 (HCSB)
1 An Oracle The word of the LORD concerning Israel. A declaration of the LORD, who stretched out the heavens, laid the foundation of the earth, and formed the spirit of man within him.

Now a dead human spirit is what you are BORN WITH, and IT MUST BE BORN AGAIN, when the HOLY SPIRIT inters the Heart birthing the Human Spirit into Eternal Life in Tune with the WILL OF GOD. A Dead Human Spirit is functioning in Tune with the Will of the Flesh.

 

[VCO]

Not quite sure I am understanding you. They all spoke in tongues, each one. One didn't speak in tongues and another use another gift. They all spoke in tongues. Baptized in the Holy Spirit.

Why do you keep saying Baptized in the Holy Spirit ? ? ?

I could find ONLY one version that translates it that way, the American Standard Version.

Every other Version that I have open in my software, Translate it WITH or BY, making HIM the Baptizer and not the element that one is Immersed in. Here are the versions that I have open: KJV, ASV, NKJV, NASB, HCSB, CSBBIBLE, NRSV, ESV, NIV, GWT, YLT, NJB, NCV, and BBE

 

[7seasrekeyed]

The point EG is making is the fact that many conflate water immersion with being immersed into the Holy Spirit at the moment of belief......The Spirit indwells, seals and makes alive at the moment of faith <--the gifts in the 1st century A.D. were the results of this indwelling......Acts 2, the 50th day was a special ONE OFF EVENT and is primarily focused on the HOLY SPIRIT taking the place of Jesus as conforter, guide and teacher of the Lord's churches........

really?

I have never heard any single person conflate those 2 things whatsoever

I have been to Charismatic, Pentecostal, Baptist, Presbyterian, Brethren, non-denominational, Messianic Assembly, Anglican and several others and have had good Catholic friends and the only place I have ever seen any such misinformed information is right here in this thread

the gifts were not confined to the 1st C

I know where you stand and you know where I stand, but I tell you I have never heard or know of anyone becoming confused over water and the Holy Spirit

 

[RickyZ]

Not sure which statement you mean...

Went back and reread that. Sorry, I misunderstood what you said!

 

[RickyZ]

I disagree with your comment about 1 cor 14, but the rest I see as True, but if your going to attack others. And not attack your own people who sin in this area. Then you have major issues, and are part of the propblem not the solution.

I do try to correct the errors of tongue talkers. Like I said, they are often their own worst enemies, and a source of the confusion on the subject!

I think one takeaway from Corinthians is that while Paul wished we would all do it, he'd rather we not do it than do it wrong. A lot of people don't get that.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

It is a spiritual gift if you can suddenly, without learning the language, speak a language.

The different relates to the variety within that congregation not that they were of an angelic origin.

I did not say they were of angelic origin. please find it and show me because if I said it, I don't remember saying it

what I did say, was that Paul mentions angelic tongues ... he does that in I Cor 13...everyone is prob familiar with it

well regarding your statement that the different relates to the variety within a congregation, why then does Paul say some have the gift of DIVERSE tongues? or varieties as in the translation below

a gift to a person is not a congregation

1 Now in regard to spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be unaware. 2 [b]You know how, when you were pagans, you were constantly attracted and led away to mute idols. 3 Therefore, I tell you that nobody speaking by the spirit of God says, “Jesus be accursed.” And no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the holy Spirit.
4 [c]There are different kinds of spiritual gifts but the same Spirit; 5 there are different forms of service but the same Lord; 6 there are different workings but the same God who produces all of them in everyone. 7 To each individual the manifestation of the Spirit is given for some benefit. 8 To one is given through the Spirit the expression of wisdom; to another the expression of knowledge according to the same Spirit; 9 to another faith by the same Spirit; to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit; 10 to another mighty deeds; to another prophecy; to another discernment of spirits; to another varieties of tongues; to another interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit produces all of these, distributing them individually to each person as he wishes.

the above is speaking of the giving of the gifts to individuals

the same Spirit produces ALL of the gifts

but not if you (generic you) deny they exist, say they are demonic and deny that there is a separate infilling of the Holy Spirit that in the original Greek of the NT is actually referred to as being baptized IN and not with

I have read/heard all the objections with regards to the above, but I am satisfied that I have understood scripture in that matter as it was meant to be understood

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Yeah....and I do not buy that for one minute.....

well that's fine

however there are two events in scripture with regards to what you disagree with

I agree with stones and that is the biblical understanding

I was saved at 5, and I had a relationship with God and I was WATER baptized at around 15 and at the age of 18 received what some call the baptism of the Holy Spirit...the Greek says the baptism IN the Holy Spirit and in no way to be understood as water immersion or sprinkling

I cannot understand how things got so out of hand in this thread with regards to what is really a simple understanding

if someone wants to believe differently it is not my place to convince them otherwise...that would be the place of the Holy Spirit and why some accept and some reject is God's domain

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Yes, perhaps people may mistake baptism to mean one or the other. But if they have any knowledge of the Bible they would know the difference...



Acts 1:4-5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

Matthew 3:11 "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Acts 11:15-16 "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' "And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning.

So the Bible is very clear about water baptism vs in filling. Baptized is used in both places. But it's clear they are not the same thing.

exactly! as I said, I have never heard of anyone doing a mashup with spiritual and water baptism and you do not seem to have either

you have been around more than I have...so you tell me!

 

[kaylagrl]

Why do you keep saying Baptized in the Holy Spirit ? ? ?

I could find ONLY one version that translates it that way, the American Standard Version.

Every other Version that I have open in my software, Translate it WITH or BY, making HIM the Baptizer and not the element that one is Immersed in. Here are the versions that I have open: KJV, ASV, NKJV, NASB, HCSB, CSBBIBLE, NRSV, ESV, NIV, GWT, YLT, NJB, NCV, and BBE

Acts 1:4-5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

Matthew 3:11 "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Acts 11:15-16 "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' "And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning.


It is a term Pentecostals use, it means the very same thing as with or by. No one with any common sense confuses water baptism with Holy Spirit baptism.