A NON-CHARISMATIC UNDERSTANDING OF TONGUES
- Thread starter VCO
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Mark 3:
A House Divided
(Matthew 12:22-30; Luke 11:14-23)
20Then Jesus went home, and once again a crowd gathered, so that He and His disciples could not even eat. 21When His family heard about this, they went out to take custody of Him, saying, “He is out of His mind.”
22And the scribes who had come down from Jerusalem were saying, “He is possessed by Beelzebul,” and, “By the prince of the demons He drives out demons.”
23So Jesus called them together and began to speak to them in parables: “How can Satan drive out Satan? 24If a kingdom is divided against itself, it cannot stand. 25If a house is divided against itself, it cannot stand. 26And if Satan is divided and rises against himself, he cannot stand; his end has come. 27Indeed, no one can enter a strong man’s house to steal his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man. Then he can plunder his house.
The Unpardonable Sin
(Matthew 12:31-32)
28Truly I tell you, the sons of men will be forgiven all sins and blasphemies, as many as they utter. 29But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of eternal sin.”
30Jesus made this statement because they were saying, “He has an unclean spirit.”
Are ya SURE you wanna stick to that statement? Granted there's a lot of falsehoods out there, but when ya lump them ALL under this banner you put yourself on a very slippery slope.
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7seasrekeyed
Guest
a legend in your own mind?
buy some space on the net and create your own forum and you can moderate it and populate it with people just like you
and argue with yourself
you have nothing to contribute but negativity and brash nonsense
nobody really cares. you are simply the entertainment flavor of the week
7
7seasrekeyed
Guest
I've noticed that when an anti-gifts person says that and someone points it out, they soft peddle it and say that is not how they meant it
but they do mean it and and the op here states the Holy Spirit led him in this endeavor
the Holy Spirit does not speak against the gifts and this person despises them and those, apparently, who do not think they have ceased
then we have the rest of the antis chiming in, emboldened by the rudeness of the op
it's like watching a bad movie
I care.a legend in your own mind?
buy some space on the net and create your own forum and you can moderate it and populate it with people just like you
and argue with yourself
you have nothing to contribute but negativity and brash nonsense
nobody really cares. you are simply the entertainment flavor of the week
I fully understand where VCO is coming from, but he's still wrong. And misinformation causes these issues to be stymied among believers. How many people don't even give the gifts a fair shot because of all the confusion?
And who wins when Christians are confused about what they are supposed to do?
Frankly, the fact that SO MUCH CONFUSION reigns over this subject is proof enough to me that satan sees it as a threat. A threat that, thanks to threads like this, he is successful in nullifying.
By all means we must ferret out the fakes and falsehoods.
But to toss the baby with the bathwater only gives satan a mark in the win column.
7
7seasrekeyed
Guest
I care that once again, the bullies are having a tea party with the Mad Hatter giving out the invitations
I know where this is coming from. my background is anti tongues and I am neither Pentecostal or Charismatic
but the gifts are real and I have seen this type of hatred too often in this forum dispensed by those who do not speak in tongues, do not want to speak in tongues and desire to wipe out speaking in tongues
let God judge it all. it's a stinking mess and produces rotten fruit that stinks to heaven. literally
7
7seasrekeyed
Guest
well yes, it is an error
the Bible, does not say always an earthly language. that, is what you are saying to qualify your opinion that tongues have ceased
you cannot prove the Bible says that because it simply does not say that. you have arrived at that understanding though it is neither stated nor implied in scripture
There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the same Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.” 1 Corinthians 12:4-10.
How is it then, brethren Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification. If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret.” 1 Corinthians 14:26-27.
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7seasrekeyed
Guest
actually, it would appear that no one has the right to tell another to shut up
I actually do wish that folks would actually stick to the op of any thread...more or less...and not constantly veer off course
however that is not the actual source of your objection
even the mods don't come in here as heavy handed as the op VCO has
anyone can put anyone on ignore so let him do it if he cares to
I could start 101 threads about speaking in tongues and each and every one would end up with the naysayers doing the usual type of posts they do
the very word debate ensures there will be more than one opinion expressed but when folks basically tell others to shut up and go away, that indicates they really need their own space and this forum is probably not it
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Niether one of them fits sis, thats my point
Your right, no one had the HS until pentecost. At one moment, they were baptized by the HS (their sins were washed away) and annointed by the HS (He came into them, sealed them, and gave each of them gifts)
This infillng of the HS or baptism of the HS is a missaplication of many who believe in tongues..
When I use my gift, I am not filled, or baptized or whatever by the holy spirit. I m just by nature and power of the HS doing what he empowered or gifted me to do.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
I disagree with your comment about 1 cor 14, but the rest I see as True, but if your going to attack others. And not attack your own people who sin in this area. Then you have major issues, and are part of the propblem not the solution.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Again,
Kelbyofgod opened a thread explaining the gift. And said he does not wish to discuss the issue, and only wanted tongues people in there
This thread is for those who wish to know why SOME do not believe in modern day tongues, and asked basically the same thing, If you want to read to find out why some disagree, fine, but if you want to fight, go find another thread..
If your going to judge one, you better judge the other.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
The same argument can be made against gifting
Your yelling at VCO, yet you are actin the same way you say he is.. And you do not see a problem with this?
U
UnderGrace
Guest
Yes VCO I agree, the word "glossa" means languages or the actual physical tongue depending on the context, this is the same in Italian, "lingua" I wonder if the translators had used the word "language" if it would have changed things.
If Paul used the word tongues or languages (which is a better rendering of the Greek word glõssa) differently in 1 Corinthians 14 than it is used elsewhere in the New Testament, one could conclude that he is talking about something other than "languages."
However, the word is used in the same way as in other places, one must conclude that Paul is referring to the same gift as is mentioned elsewhere, that he is speaking of foreign or non-Greek languages.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Sadly, the word “tongue” and “baptize” (which is not even an english word) has caused the confusion of many,,
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7seasrekeyed
Guest
where is he yelling?
this is just you, doing what you always do, trying to get a disagreement going by using inflammatory language and then you will say you didn't mean it that way or some such
no, actually he is not acting the same way
not even close and I don't always agree with him either in how he posts even if we do agree in principal
you are not a moderator so maybe be concerned with the log in your own eye
you have as many, or possibly more posts, correcting how others are posting then you have posts concerning the op
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7seasrekeyed
Guest
you have to ignore part of what Paul states concerning tongues in order to reach the conclusions you state you agree with
you are simply a cessationist ...but not in agreement with scripture. can you make a cognizant reasoning for your agreement with the op or are you just picking sides?
the Bible, does not say always an earthly language. that, is what you are saying to qualify your opinion that tongues have ceased
you cannot prove the Bible says that because it simply does not say that. you have arrived at that understanding though it is neither stated nor implied in scripture
There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the same Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.” 1 Corinthians 12:4-10.
How is it then, brethren Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification. If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret.” 1 Corinthians 14:26-27.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
The hypocrisy in some people just amaze me.
If the people who believe the way I do do it. Its ok
But if the oposition does it. Its not ok.
People need to get real.
I am not against anyone giving an apposing view on this thread. It is an open forum. But if your going to attack the op of this thread for not wanting to discuss it. You better attack just as harshly people who believe the way you do who open threads and does nt want to discuss in on their thread.
If the people who believe the way I do do it. Its ok
But if the oposition does it. Its not ok.
People need to get real.
I am not against anyone giving an apposing view on this thread. It is an open forum. But if your going to attack the op of this thread for not wanting to discuss it. You better attack just as harshly people who believe the way you do who open threads and does nt want to discuss in on their thread.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
One more time
Ignore me or stop your silly nonsense. I told you I had you on ignore. And someone had to let me know you were at it one more time.. This is going to stop!!
If i have to ask you again, I will report you to the top
YOu NEVER have anything positive to say about anything, YOU STILL have not responded and answered the accusation you made against me in another thread. You seem hell bent on trying to attack me at every move.
Your blinded by the fact that someone does not agree with you. and you defending people who agree with you who are doing the very same thing your saying this person is doing to you.
VCO says he does not see scripture to support you and anyone who disagrees is wrong
Your guy (namely RickyZ) says scripture supports tongues, and anyone who disagrees is wrong
Do not say it is ok for one (rickyZ) and not the other (VCO) and do not say what VCO is more than what RickyZ is doing..
I never stated I was a mod. Yet somehow you keep insisting I think I am or do. You little games are getting old. But if you keep this up. I will do as was suggested and take this right to the top.
One more time, I WILL not warn you again..
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7seasrekeyed
Guest
speaking of confusion, let's better understand the words being used in scripture. there was a time no one spoke English as do we in the 21st C. none of our words were English to start with, so stating the word baptize is not an English word, when it has been used as is and to mean what we understand it means, for the last 700 or so years
baptize (v.)
"to administer the rite of baptism to," c. 1300, from Old French batisier "be baptized; baptize; give a name to" (11c.), from Latin baptizare, from Greek baptizein "immerse, dip in water," also figuratively, "be over one's head" (in debt, etc.), "to be soaked (in wine);" in Christian use, "baptize;" from baptein"to dip, steep, dye, color," perhaps from PIE root *gwabh- (1) "to dip, sink." Christian baptism originally was a full immersion. Related: Baptized; baptizing.
providing an entomology of the word 'baptize' as regards the English use, we find that it springs from middle English around 1250 to 1300. prior to that, it was sourced from the Greek that is used in the New Testament
so no confusion whatsoever.