A NON-CHARISMATIC UNDERSTANDING OF TONGUES

[eternally-gratefull]

I never thought of that, LOL.

Makes me wonder if we will remember any of these things..lol

 

[dcontroversal]

Dude, Please stop

Just because someone does not agree with you does not mean they are not following the bible. In fact it could be just as true that your not following the word.

All you do is attack people. You never give any scripture to support your view.

Again, This is not a thread to discuss tongues, it is a thread to give a different view for people to see..

You have all your threads.. Try for once to leave other people alone!

Amen...........100%

 

[Dino246]

You do not UNDERSTAND my Motive. I have been answering those kind of questions since the Mid 80's, and I have not seen a new question in at least the last two DECADES. And you expect me to continue the MOST MINOR SUBJECT in the whole BIBLE, just because you want to DEBATE ME. LOOK AT THE TITLE. I made it PLAIN THAT I WAS GOING TO PRESENT ONE SIDE of the ISSUE:
A NON-CHARISMATIC UNDERSTANDING OF TONGUES.

How much more plain can I make it. I what to show NON-charismatic BELIEVERS, how to explain OUR COMMON BELIEFS.

I do not care that you disagree.

Even if I agreed with you on your core position, I'd still have much to say about your study. It has some huge flaws, but I see no point in trying to point them out to someone whose mind is so firmly shut.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

You never heard any believer that became bitter about someone hurting them in some way, and in immaturity thought that they had authority to pray to God for vengeance?

I've run into a few in my lifetime. Scripture says a bitter root defiles within. It does. Understanding the grace of God towards themselves is misunderstood. And the ego has not been dealt with. It's very hard to deal with and takes deliverance.

Unforgiveness surely has to be the root of mental illness.

Perhaps you are misunderstanding my posting? Not all Christians are bright and sunny, follow. Many troubled.

yup

 

[7seasrekeyed]

I has been my experience that Most Pentecostals and Charismatics will ALWAYS ATTACK, when someone has an opinion OPPOSITE of their holy grail. The first family get together, after I wrote the Original A NON-CHARISMATIC UNDERSTANDING OF TONGUES ended up with two of Sister-inlaws actually yelling at me from across the dining room table during lunch. That is why I started this post our with: I DO NOT WANT A DEBATE ON THIS SUBJECT, hoping to avoid the inevitable ARGUMENT from the Charismatic and Pentecostal side of the issue.

In my opinion, their instant headed ARGUMENT, verifies it is NOT OF GOD.

LOL!

 

[stonesoffire]

EG
Prophesy is foretelling the future.

Stones
Most that I've heard has either been what's the will or purpose that God has for an individual or a fellowship.

EG

Can be? A prophesy is a prediction of a future event, A prophet is one who prophesies. When the event comes true then God is glorified Examples of OT prophets are daniel, Isaiah, Ezekial. Jeremiah.


Stones: I agreed with you, but I also said it can be a message of correction to a fellowship. In love though.
Another asked me to tell you that prophesy is also preaching. I can't copy and paste what was in a note. I don't know how to find it again except through the alert.

EG
All prophets spoke as God spoke through them, s this is nothing new.

Stones
I'm not sure that OT prophets spoke from within. Holy Spirit rested upon them or anointed them to minister. But, they weren't born again. Prophets today are.

EG
So the prophets who spoke of prophetic events spoke from within? And it was Not God speaking through them?

Stones: we aren't on the same page here so to speak EG.
1. I said I'm not sure if they spoke from within. I hear when I start to speak from within. Did they hear within? I don't know. But it was God speaking. How? ? I don't know. Don't misunderstand me please.
2. They weren't born again except through baptisms which they called being born again. They had multiple baptisms. Speaking here of the Jews and their way. My understanding is the anointing came down upon them. Like Jesus being anointed for ministry. But, Jesus is God Himself. They were not unless that little Gods thing is right. I don't know. I don't care.
3. Did the Jews have an experience of the new birth as we do? I don't know.
Don't you think that the born again experience and baptism of Holy Spirit which is permanent is different than the OT experiences of the prophets? They heard an outward voice. We, an inner. Holy Spirit did not remain upon them. IMV.

EG
Daniel and his 70 week prophesy was Daniels thoughts and not Gods?

Stones: not what I said or meant.

EG
Sis, you are worrying me, Is this what you are taught?

Stones: you need to read a little closer or ask me questions rather than assuming EG.

EG
Even in the OT. A prophet was considered a false prophet if the prophesy did not come true (the people were even told he was not from God)

Stones:
Ok

EG
duet 18: 22 -
Deuteronomy 18:22
when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him

It is scripture sis.

Stones:

Ok, I'll get my sword ready for cutting, and pile up the stones.

EG
When it is said, God will speak thoough you. I have witnessed that, But it was not a prophesy, it was sitting in front of a home group leading a bible study. I have even had prayers come out that I know was not from me, and I have talked to people. And had them speak to me about things going on in each others lives and sometimes, that too was not my own word, Or even could be a form of prophecy per say when you are shown a sin that person is doing and you have never even witnessed it. And you speak to them and they confess.

One thing about all of these things, It was all done in english..


Stones:
Of course. It would be. As I said before, only the gift of tongues that is equal to prophecy is in another tongue or language. And it has to be interpreted.

EG
Click to expand...
All tongues require interpretation

1 cor 14: 6 But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you unless I speak to you either by revelation, by knowledge, by prophesying, or by teaching? 7 Even things without life, whether flute or harp, when they make a sound, unless they make a distinction in the sounds, how will it be known what is piped or played? 8 For if the trumpet makes an uncertain sound, who will prepare for battle? 9 So likewise you, unless you utter by the tongue words easy to understand, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air. 10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of languages in the world, and none of them iswithout [b]significance. 11 Therefore, if I do not know the meaning of the language, I shall be a [c]foreigner to him who speaks, and he who speaks will be a foreigner to me. 12 Even so you, since you are [d]zealous for spiritual gifts, let it be for the [e]edification of the church that you seek to excel.

Paul here says if one speaks in tongues, where it be for prophesying, teaching, Revelation or revelation, It must be interpreted. Otherwise it is spoken to as a foregner. And the context of this is speaking to the church for edifying the church

Again, If I am speaking in tongues, an dno one can understand me, it is meaningless for all who listen to what I say. Those are pauls words not mine,
I will just leave it there sis

Stones: I've already explained several times the difference between the two ways tongues is used.
If you have a point, then I missed it. Teaching by tongues? How? Revelation by tongues? Depends.

EG
My point was that my church did what you said we should do. And no foriegn language was used by anyone.

Stones: I sat in those meetings so I know what you are doing.

EG
As for eternal consequences. Unless a persons eternal life is in danger (which it never is otherwise it owuld not be eternal) or the decision a person needs to make concerning their eternal destiny, While it may have eternal consequences s for as blessings or something, You can not compar it to the eternal consequence of chosing the wrong gospel and ending up in hell. .

Stones: the true story of the woman with the gun? Praying in tongues kept the other woman from hell.

Stones: see above..
No I can't when it's eternal salvation. But in Acts I know Paul was looking to God for what to say in answer to charges being brought against him. And he heard. That's why I brought the scripture out of Matthew. In a day where our heads could possibly roll, I hope that a Word from the Lord could be freeing if ever in a same situation.

Or an angel opening a jail cell. If not? Heaven is wonderful so I've read.
Have you ever thought man could eat angels food?
Click to expand...

EG. When we get to heaven we will eat food so perfect our tast buds will not know how to act!!

Stones: ok..

 

[7seasrekeyed]

somebody has a good amount of patience

 

[dcontroversal]

I flat disagree that the O.T. prophets were not saved or born again...Peter calls them HOLY MEN OF GOD....

That statement alone = born from above by faith into the coming Messiah

 

[stonesoffire]

somebody has a good amount of patience

I did not enjoy.

 

[stonesoffire]

I flat disagree that the O.T. prophets were not saved or born again...Peter calls them HOLY MEN OF GOD....

That statement alone = born from above by faith into the coming Messiah

Can you show me that they were? I will change what is my opinion at this time. No need for ruffled feathers.

 

[UnderGrace]

So UnderGrace, I have never spoken in tongues and I do not have a desire to speak in tongues but I am curious about this spiritual gift. Would you be willing to describe your experience in speaking in tongues and why did you only have "one experience." A Christian friend once told me that if ask God to give me this gift He will, do you know if that is true.

Thank you and God bless.

Hi TT,

It was last year, we were having heated debates on CC on tongues, so I was listening to some recordings of people on You Tube who were manifesting this "gift"

Having done some study in linguistics back in the day I found it interesting how deconstructed the utterances were. So I listened to a lot of different people, trying to hear similarities or differences in the utterances.

Then one day when praying, I stopped forming words, it was very strange. There is definitely an automaticity to it, like driving a car or reading you don't really think it just pours out. I can tell you it did not feel spiritual, I can see why the studies state it is a learned behaviour and completely the product of a heightened emotional state.
I really think it is just a release of endorphins, it was much like a runners high to me.

I rather go for a good run

 

[TruthTalk]

Makes me wonder if we will remember any of these things..lol

Makes me wonder too E-g, I've heard that heaven is so perfect that even in a baseball game every hit is a home run and in every golf game swing is a hole in one. But the question is will we remember any of these things?

In Isaiah ch.65 it definitely say's that; "The former things will not be remembered." and later it say's that weeping and crying will no longer be heard; so that some scholars say that only "bad memories" will be erased from our memory.

Jesus did promise that we believer's would drink the "blood of the covenant", a new with us in His Fathers Kingdom." so this is a promise that is trustworthy and sure.

Matthew 26:27-29
27) Then He took the cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28) This is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29) I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in My Father’s kingdom.”

A New Heavens and Earth--Isaiah 65:17-19
17) For behold, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.
18) But be glad and rejoice forever
in what I create;
for I will create Jerusalem to be a joy
and its people to be a delight.
19) I will rejoice in Jerusalem
and take delight in My people.
The sounds of weeping and crying
will no longer be heard in her.

 

[dcontroversal]

Can you show me that they were? I will change what is my opinion at this time. No need for ruffled feathers.

I am not ruffled and God does not use lost men to pen his word.....

Holy men of God <---to be considered HOLY one must be born from above and the word OF or FROM INDICATES SOURCE....

BEFORE God used Isaiah, his LIPS had to be purified by the COAL from the Altar.....

To be honest....I am surprised you would say what you said....to imply Daniel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Samuel etc. were not saved is foolish and contrary to the very Phrase HOLY MEN OF GOD SPOKE AS THEY WERE MOVED BY THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST THAT WAS IN THEM

They spoke by the Power of the Holy Spirit and had the the SPIRIT OF CHRIST IN THEM.....no way they were not saved.....Christ does not put his spirit in lost men nor do lost men have the power to prophesy by the Holy Spirt and a lost man is never called holy man of God anywhere in scripture.


For prophecy was not ever uttered by the will of man, but holy men of God spake under the power of the Holy Spirit.

and

Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

 

[stonesoffire]

I am not ruffled and God does not use lost men to pen his word.....

Holy men of God <---to be considered HOLY one must be born from above and the word OF or FROM INDICATES SOURCE....

BEFORE God used Isaiah, his LIPS had to be purified by the COAL from the Altar.....

To be honest....I am surprised you would say what you said....to imply Daniel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Samuel etc. were not saved is foolish and contrary to the very Phrase HOLY MEN OF GOD SPOKE AS THEY WERE MOVED BY THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST THAT WAS IN THEM

They spoke by the Power of the Holy Spirit and had the the SPIRIT OF CHRIST IN THEM.....no way they were not saved.....Christ does not put his spirit in lost men nor do lost men have the power to prophesy by the Holy Spirt and a lost man is never called holy man of God anywhere in scripture.


For prophecy was not ever uttered by the will of man, but holy men of God spake under the power of the Holy Spirit.

and

Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

1. Did I say anything about being lost? No, I did not. They went to Abraham's bosom. Trusting in blood sacrifice, circumcised physically.
2. Does Holy mean born again?

OT: no

שׁ


qôdesh


BDB Definition:


1) apartness, holiness, sacredness, separateness


1a) apartness, sacredness, holiness


1a1) of God


1a2) of places


1a3) of things


1b) set-apartness, separateness

NT Holy : yes



G40


ἅγιος


hagios


Thayer Definition:


1) most holy thing, a saint


Part of Speech: adjective


A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from hagos (an awful thing) [compare G53, G2282]


I would need a scripture that tells me they were filled with Holy Spirit. The Spirit of Father.

And I'm just as surprised at you brother.

 

[dcontroversal]

1. Did I say anything about being lost? No, I did not. They went to Abraham's bosom. Trusting in blood sacrifice, circumcised physically.
2. Does Holy mean born again?

OT: no

שׁ


qôdesh


BDB Definition:


1) apartness, holiness, sacredness, separateness


1a) apartness, sacredness, holiness


1a1) of God


1a2) of places


1a3) of things


1b) set-apartness, separateness

NT Holy : yes



G40


ἅγιος


hagios


Thayer Definition:


1) most holy thing, a saint


Part of Speech: adjective


A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from hagos (an awful thing) [compare G53, G2282]


I would need a scripture that tells me they were filled with Holy Spirit. The Spirit of Father.

And I'm just as surprised at you brother.

Holy is used by Peter in the N.T. and this is one example where being Charismatic leads astray....Show me...

a. God using lost men to pen his word
b. The Spiirt of Christ being in lost men
c. Lost men testifying by the Holy Spirit

This whole argument is rather tragic....the lineage of FAITH IN Hebrews Is full of SAVED MEN AND WOMEN OF FAITH FROM THE O.T......

Wow!!

SAVED IS BORN AGAIN...one and the same!!

 

[stonesoffire]

Holy is used by Peter in the N.T. and this is one example where being Charismatic leads astray....Show me...

a. God using lost men to pen his word
b. The Spiirt of Christ being in lost men
c. Lost men testifying by the Holy Spirit

This whole argument is rather tragic....the lineage of FAITH IN Hebrews Is full of SAVED MEN AND WOMEN OF FAITH FROM THE O.T......

Wow!!

SAVED IS BORN AGAIN...one and the same!!

No it isnt Dcon. No one entered heaven but Jesus came down. That's scripture. It is not a parable concerning the two compartments of hell. One for the wicked, the other for the righteous. Called Abraham's bosom. The place of rest for the children of Israel in Abraham.

We are the children of Abraham by faith.

Now they are in heaven for they were released by the Lord.

You all never heard this? Very surprised!

 

[dcontroversal]

No it isnt Dcon. No one entered heaven but Jesus came down. That's scripture. It is not a parable concerning the two compartments of hell. One for the wicked, the other for the righteous. Called Abraham's bosom. The place of rest for the children of Israel in Abraham.

We are the children of Abraham by faith.

Now they are in heaven for they were released by the Lord.

You all never heard this? Very surprised!

That is not what started this...you stated that the prophets were not born again and that is simply false by the verbaige applied unto them, the 11th chapter of Hebrews, and to say saved is not born again contradicts the bible......and of course I know the O.T. SAINTS were reserved in Abraham's bosom until Christ resurrected....please do not assume anything about what I may or may not know......!!!

 

[TruthTalk]

Hi TT,

It was last year, we were having heated debates on CC on tongues, so I was listening to some recordings of people on You Tube who were manifesting this "gift"

Having done some study in linguistics back in the day I found it interesting how deconstructed the utterances were. So I listened to a lot of different people, trying to hear similarities or differences in the utterances.

Then one day when praying, I stopped forming words, it was very strange. There is definitely an automaticity to it, like driving a car or reading you don't really think it just pours out. I can tell you it did not feel spiritual, I can see why the studies state it is a learned behaviour and completely the product of a heightened emotional state.
I really think it is just a release of endorphins, it was much like a runners high to me.

I rather go for a good run

Thank you UnderGrace, your experience makes me confident that, "not pursuing the gift of tongues" was the right decision for me. I love to learn about world languages and so I began to learn my wife's family language which is Thai and the Thai language is rooted in "Sanskrit", (5000 years old).

My biblical discipleship taught me that our eternal salvation is not contingent on a "second baptism" we are all made to drink from one Spirit. And if someone teaches that you need a "second baptism" to be saved then I believe that is not true. I honestly do not mean to offend anyone but the first baptism was sufficient to save that's all. Thank you for your post.....

​

1 Corinthians 12:13
For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body--whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free--and we were all given the one Spirit to drink

1. Sanskrit (5000 years old).
2. Hebrew (3000 years old).
3. Greek (2900 years old).

 

[UnderGrace]

That is not what started this...you stated that the prophets were not born again and that is simply false by the verbaige applied unto them, the 11th chapter of Hebrews, and to say saved is not born again contradicts the bible......and of course I know the O.T. SAINTS were reserved in Abraham's bosom until Christ resurrected....please do not assume anything about what I may or may not know......!!!

This much I can say... Abraham believed looking forward and we believe looking back

 

[stonesoffire]

That is not what started this...you stated that the prophets were not born again and that is simply false by the verbaige applied unto them, the 11th chapter of Hebrews, and to say saved is not born again contradicts the bible......and of course I know the O.T. SAINTS were reserved in Abraham's bosom until Christ resurrected....please do not assume anything about what I may or may not know......!!!

Lol...you did the same Dcon. No one can go to heaven unless born again of Spirit. That's the difference between old and new. The Jews called repentance and turning to God with a whole heart born again.

Jesus brought a new dispensation. Grace. The power of Holy Spirit within men. Putting to death the nature of sin by the Cross of Jesus. Raised up in ressurection power. The prophets of old plus the angels would love to know what we have been given. Or similar words.

I won't budge on this.