A NON-CHARISMATIC UNDERSTANDING OF TONGUES

[FollowHisSteps]

I has been my experience that Most Pentecostals and Charismatics will ALWAYS ATTACK, when someone has an opinion OPPOSITE of their holy grail. The first family get together, after I wrote the Original A NON-CHARISMATIC UNDERSTANDING OF TONGUES ended up with two of Sister-inlaws actually yelling at me from across the dining room table during lunch. That is why I started this post our with: I DO NOT WANT A DEBATE ON THIS SUBJECT, hoping to avoid the inevitable ARGUMENT from the Charismatic and Pentecostal side of the issue.

In my opinion, their instant headed ARGUMENT, verifies it is NOT OF GOD.

The strength of feeling about a subject implies its sensitivity.
Take the argument about how we show Jesus has transformed us and how we are reassured we
are His. Sensitivity just shows its importance to that person, not that they are right or wrong.

And the problem with saying something is not of God, and it is a spiritual experience of some sort,
invested in Gods presence, you are saying that whole persons experience is deceived or deluded.
That strikes at the core of a whole belief system, which is totally judgemental and confrontational.

One maybe right, but to say such a thing as if it is some doctrinal interpretation of scripture and
not a rejection of someones expression of life in Christ, is not taking seriously the words being spoken.

The apostles were very careful about this. They talked of testing the spirits and the people involved.
It was separating out group issues in general to the reality it is a one to one issue. A prophet could
either be false or true, unless one says prophecy itself is now defunct. And if a prophet could be false
they must be tested along with the prophecy. I believe in both prophecy, and also that there are true
prophets, but there certainly are both false prophets and false prophecy.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Christians simply do not know God after the private interpretation of men .The words he speaks he interprets .he does not make a noise and say go find someone to inform you what I said. Not what do we think men say (flesh and blood) but what does His Holy Spirit say. (, But whom say ye that I am) if it is the private interptation of men then Catholicism has it correctly. It was then Peter's responsibly to correct Chris rebuking him as he did...... as in flesh and blood has revealed it.Turning things upside down as if they were loosed from earth and bound in heaven

He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. Mathew 16:15-17

Study to see what the sign confirms and who it is in respect to and a person could save much time. It would seem some are beating around the bush.

What does the law inform us?

I do not understand what you are trying to say.
Tongues is our spirit, who we are in Christ, talking to God is praise and love, interceding
for a situation that intellectually we do not know how to pray for.

Our words often do not encompass the breadth of the Lords heart, but in prayer the expression
needs to be made. In some way prayer could well be the expression of Gods love and intention
to man and situation, that His words convey His heart and intentions.

Why does God want us to pray when He already knows everything? Because His people are
involved, and He will respond to a call, but the call needs to be made.
Tongues helps this very reality come into effect.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

KelbyofGod and he has his own thread. Now on page 2. The truth about tongues, Holy Spirit etc. I probably don't have the correct title but it's close.

I do not see that either sis. I must have him on ignore.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

You said:

"Funnily just as God can use tongues to bless, unbelievers can be possessed and use it to curse."

Believers who have not yet understood grace can also curse others. And think it's a right to do so.

VCO

Those who speak through Holy Spirit aren't confused. We basically agree on the gifts and what they are. And how they are used. Disagreement comes with doctrine, and demonstrations of power cannot be made a doctrine other than in the name of Jesus and through grace by faith.

So who really is confused?

"Believers who have not yet understood grace can also curse others. And think it's a right to do so. "

What are you referring to? Jesus did not curse anyone. Talking of the consequences of sin and rebellion
is not cursing.

10 Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers, this should not be.
11 Can both fresh water and salt water flow from the same spring?
12 My brothers, can a fig tree bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water.
James 3:10-12

10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."
13 "Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit.The poison of vipers is on their lips."
14 "Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
Romans 3:10-16

God bless you.

 

[stonesoffire]

"Believers who have not yet understood grace can also curse others. And think it's a right to do so. "

What are you referring to? Jesus did not curse anyone. Talking of the consequences of sin and rebellion
is not cursing.

10 Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers, this should not be.
11 Can both fresh water and salt water flow from the same spring?
12 My brothers, can a fig tree bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water.
James 3:10-12

10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."
13 "Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit.The poison of vipers is on their lips."
14 "Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
Romans 3:10-16

God bless you.

You never heard any believer that became bitter about someone hurting them in some way, and in immaturity thought that they had authority to pray to God for vengeance?

I've run into a few in my lifetime. Scripture says a bitter root defiles within. It does. Understanding the grace of God towards themselves is misunderstood. And the ego has not been dealt with. It's very hard to deal with and takes deliverance.

Unforgiveness surely has to be the root of mental illness.

Perhaps you are misunderstanding my posting? Not all Christians are bright and sunny, follow. Many troubled.

 

[stonesoffire]

I do not see that either sis. I must have him on ignore.

It's too bad. His posts are very gracious in his answering questions. It was current yesterday on the main page but has gone from it.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

You never heard any believer that became bitter about someone hurting them in some way, and in immaturity thought that they had authority to pray to God for vengeance?

I've run into a few in my lifetime. Scripture says a bitter root defiles within. It does. Understanding the grace of God towards themselves is misunderstood. And the ego has not been dealt with. It's very hard to deal with and takes deliverance.

Unforgiveness surely has to be the root of mental illness.

Perhaps you are misunderstanding my posting? Not all Christians are bright and sunny, follow. Many troubled.

Thanks Stones.

And I have never heard of a believer cursing someone while praying to God.
I do know bitter people, so I can imagine they could pray like this, if they were christians.

I was talking in the sense of theology and having a good heart in the Lord.
Once sin and impurity get involved, lots of things go bad.

I have seen some "prophets" "apostles" claiming to talk against them as false teachers brings
judgement on ones head. So I understand what you are talking about now, thanks.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It's too bad. His posts are very gracious in his answering questions. It was current yesterday on the main page but has gone from it.

Ok I found it, I think I see what you mean, The OP did request that that not be a thread be a anti/for tongues thread. To leave those discussions for other threads.. So I see your point

However, I was also saddened to go into that thread, as absolutely also in that thread just as he was in the last thread I was in about tongues calling me out...he was just as bad in there, and sadly, again, I witnessed something from another postor (who I will leave nameless) shamelessly attacking other people who disagree with him. I guess that is just a topic where there will never be peace.. and people on both sides have valid points.. which is sad,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I have yet to have time to read this whole OP. So as for commenting on the op. I can not do this yet until I get a grasp on what is being said.

 

[Absolutely]

..

I has been my experience that Most Pentecostals and Charismatics will ALWAYS ATTACK, when someone has an opinion OPPOSITE of their holy grail. The first family get together, after I wrote the Original A NON-CHARISMATIC UNDERSTANDING OF TONGUES ended up with two of Sister-inlaws actually yelling at me from across the dining room table during lunch. That is why I started this post our with: I DO NOT WANT A DEBATE ON THIS SUBJECT, hoping to avoid the inevitable ARGUMENT from the Charismatic and Pentecostal side of the issue.

In my opinion, their instant headed ARGUMENT, verifies it is NOT OF GOD.

Redicilous.
Your doctrine is unscriptural.
As i showed you .
YOU CHOSE a bad starting place,then proceeded from there.
You decared you FOLLOW Mcarthur.
He is leading many like yourselves into error.
I jave the high ground scripturally.
It is my endeavor to make my "opponent" go against the word.
I am Jesus/Holy Spirit/word centered.
You decared yourself that you NEED Mcarthur to SHOW YOU what to believe.
A bible insults you,not me.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

..
Redicilous.
Your doctrine is unscriptural.
As i showed you .
YOU CHOSE a bad starting place,then proceeded from there.
You decared you FOLLOW Mcarthur.
He is leading many like yourselves into error.
I jave the high ground scripturally.
It is my endeavor to make my "opponent" go against the word.
I am Jesus/Holy Spirit/word centered.
You decared yourself that you NEED Mcarthur to SHOW YOU what to believe.
A bible insults you,not me.

Dude, Please stop

Just because someone does not agree with you does not mean they are not following the bible. In fact it could be just as true that your not following the word.

All you do is attack people. You never give any scripture to support your view.

Again, This is not a thread to discuss tongues, it is a thread to give a different view for people to see..

You have all your threads.. Try for once to leave other people alone!

 

[Absolutely]

I had the HOLY SPIRIT COME INTO MY HEART the MOMENT THAT I WAS SAVED, the last week of 1979; and HE has been TEACHING ME EVER SINCE. He is how you know HE is in you:

1 John 2:5 (HCSB)
5 But whoever keeps His word, truly in him the love of God is perfected. This is how we know we are in Him:

John 14:16-17 (CSBBible)
16 "And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever.
17 He is the Spirit of truth. The world is unable to receive him because it doesn't see him or know him. But you do know him, because he remains with you and will be in you. [Notice that was Before the Day of Pentecost.]


WOOOO HOOOOO!!!! Does Not EXIST, but then again, it could be a DECEIVING SPIRIT.

NO RESPONSE WANTED.



For the non-charismatic readers: Here is some INFO that I ran across AFTER I Published the STUDY. This video was published by a guy that described himself is Charismatic - Pentecostal Believer, that was deeply concerned that Deceiving Spirits had entered into their worship services in a great number of their Churches. EVERYBODY NEEDS TO WATCH VIDEO, it is Deceiving Spirit in the Charismatic Churches. I know of this personally, because one my Sister-inlaws was involved in one of the Churches mentioned in this video.

You are cherry picking youtubes to attack a movement.
As i already showed you,anyone can attack using a parallel or error by association

Again,since one baptist steals funds we can conclude,according to your own error by association,ALL BAPTISTS are thieves.
Very sinister,that type of error.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You are cherry picking youtubes to attack a movement.
As i already showed you,anyone can attack using a parallel or error by association

Again,since one baptist steals funds we can conclude,according to your own error by association,ALL BAPTISTS are thieves.
Very sinister,that type of error.

Your attacking a person just to be attacking, there is no fruit or substance in yyur posts.

If you have nothing to add to the OP. Pease go away.

 

[Absolutely]

Dude, Please stop

Just because someone does not agree with you does not mean they are not following the bible. In fact it could be just as true that your not following the word.

All you do is attack people. You never give any scripture to support your view.

Again, This is not a thread to discuss tongues, it is a thread to give a different view for people to see..

You have all your threads.. Try for once to leave other people alone!

Pot <> kettle

Any discussion can invoke false victimization.
"You're attacking me"

Silly that invoking the word is attacking.
It is powerful though,and since i have the word of God behind my statements i suppose you guys are going into a panic
Just show me where you think the word of God backs you up.

See how a discussion works.
Psssst...it's a forum,not a private platform

 

[Absolutely]

Your attacking a person just to be attacking, there is no fruit or substance in yyur posts.

If you have nothing to add to the OP. Pease go away.

Either discuss the topic or move on.
Stop the silly false victimization

Calm down ,clear your mind,re read my post.
I am on topic and clearly debunking the ATTACKS on charismatics.
Did you read the op????
IT IS A SLAM ON CHARISMATICS.

A CRYSTAL CLEAR ATTACK.
LOOK UP THAT WORD " ATTACK"
Push back is not attack.
Figure that out,get out of the victim mode and discuss the op.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Pot <> kettle

Any discussion can invoke false victimization.
"You're attacking me"

Silly that invoking the word is attacking.
It is powerful though,and since i have the word of God behind my statements i suppose you guys are going into a panic
Just show me where you think the word of God backs you up.

See how a discussion works.
Psssst...it's a forum,not a private platform

Dude I am just calling you out. If you have somethign with substance to say with somee bible to back you up and actually trying to discuss what the OP said, Then feel free

If all your going to do is call people names, Attack people. And have NOTHING to add to the conversation. THEN GO AWAY!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Either discuss the topic or move on.
Stop the silly false victimization

Calm down ,clear your mind,re read my post.
I am on topic and clearly debunking the ATTACKS on charismatics.
Did you read the op????
IT IS A SLAM ON CHARISMATICS.

A CRYSTAL CLEAR ATTACK.
LOOK UP THAT WORD " ATTACK"
Push back is not attack.
Figure that out,get out of the victim mode and discuss the op.

1. I read your posts, (in three threads now)
2. All you do is attack people. If you have not figured it out by now, I do not care who you are. If your going to do this, i will call you out.

Either show parts of the OP. And discuss that aspect of the op. Or go away.

Also. The OP said this is NOT and op to argue, but an op to give a differing view. If that offends you. I recommend you stay out of the op

 

[garee]

And that is NOT a commendation or recommendation either. Please note the next verse:

What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

What is Paul saying here? That both the mind and the spirit are to be engaged in prayers and in singing praises. Which is not possible if someone is speaking in tongues and "my understanding is unfruitful".

I would think communion with the Holy Spirit is what the ears hear the mouth speaks .The principle set in Jerimiah 1. "He is watching to be sure the one receives it understands it" It applies as part of the hermeneutics I believe. . He does not say go seek after a private interpretation .

How could that be a way of seeking His approval as he lovingly commands us to?

Psalms below seems to say it that way . The ears do not hear shown by the lack of substance coming from the mouth. Like speaking into the air. Men should of been silent. Edification is when two work together .For where two or three are gathered together in respect to His word he promises us he is there with us defending us with the armor of God.


Psalm 135:17They have ears, but they hear not; neither is there any breath in their mouths.

Moses questioned the lord in the same way as Jerimiah; God instructed. Who made the mouth that forms the sounds and the ear hear as a witness to ones thoughts revealed.

The work of a apostle is to go forth preaching the gospel it give those previously deaf ears to hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches and I eyes to witness the un seen work. .

And the Lord said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the Lord? Now therefore go, and I will be with thy mouth, and teach thee what thou shalt say.Exodus 4:11-12

 

[garee]

....and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Paul convinced them of Jesus and after water baptism he laid hands on them and they recieved the baptism of the Holy Ghost.
Not only did they speak in tongues but prophesied.
Just like ole John Mcarthur teaches.
Oh wait,he needs that ingredient. Maybe take off the policeman uniform and get the Spirit of God in agreement with the WORD OF GOD

Maybe take off the Dove and the Cat experience that you need to get the Spirit of God in agreement with the WORD OF GOD

Tongues is prophecy. God's word spoken in many language as a interpretation from God. No private interpretation of men like the Cat and Dove

It would seem you are all over the place

From what you are offering you show others you have no idea as to what the scriptures teaches in regard to the doctrine of tongue.

Perhaps if you look at the foundation of the doctrine (Isaiah 28 ) and establish what the sign of tongues represents as law (1 Corinthians 14) as to what it confirms and who it is pointed at. Then you will not have to inspire Doves and Cats to work out what you beleive.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ok, I read up to segmant 4, The first part I have heard many times, concerning the Roman Catholic church and her pgan traditions.

Alot of interesting stuff here. We can not just ignore. Especially the “unknown tongue” aspect of it.. I am not sure I believe anymore all tongues have ceased, If God wants to use it he can, But I agree, tongues as used in NT. I have a hard time believeing those are still in effect. But will keep an open mind

The part about only given to men, That seems suspicious to me.. will have to dig deeper before I determine what I think