Some truth about speaking in tongues, the Holy Ghost, spiritual gifts and 1 Corinthians 14
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Tongues are not a prayer language. No evidence in the bible to say that anyone ever prayed in tongues. Jesus never prayed in tongues. Your indications that you are not an expert on the subject is well founded. Your desire not to have any contradictory information posted finds its roots in that your position cannot be supported from the bible.
You did not point out any such thing. You attacked this person in your post ____________. so sorry I called you on it.
You did not point out any such thing. You attacked this person in your post ____________. so sorry I called you on it.
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So we can agree on something.
One must be longsuffering to remain on a forum with so much name calling and false teaching being promoted.
One must be longsuffering to remain on a forum with so much name calling and false teaching being promoted.
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it is really simple. the context of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit is found in 1cor chapter 12 thru 14. Nothing in those chapters say they have ceased. Those who oppose the gifts for today use only one verse in chapter 13:10. Yet they want to throw out the chapter verses where the context of the gifts of the Holy Spirit continues. 1cor chapter 12-14 are unit chapters they are contextually linked together.
If the idea of the gifts have ceased then Paul under the leading of the Holy Spirit wrote incorrectly what we see in chapter 14.
Those who claim to be biblical learned should know this. But they choose to look elsewhere. So they pulled humanistic, secular humanism and even atheistic arguments to dispose of biblical truth. Mark 16 , 1cor chapter 12 -14 the book of Acts. All is not enough. nothing in the Greek Translation changes the context of "Gifts of the Holy Spirit".
They know this so they have to interject false narratives like this is pagan, demonic, or create terms from non-Christian or Christian liberal theology like modern tongues and cessationist.
We do agree that there are abuses, misuses of all the gifts the Lord has entrusted us with. Yes, there are those who are in error. Never said there was not. But those who scoff and mock do so to those who seek and believe what they cannot prove biblically that the gifts are not for today.
If the idea of the gifts have ceased then Paul under the leading of the Holy Spirit wrote incorrectly what we see in chapter 14.
Those who claim to be biblical learned should know this. But they choose to look elsewhere. So they pulled humanistic, secular humanism and even atheistic arguments to dispose of biblical truth. Mark 16 , 1cor chapter 12 -14 the book of Acts. All is not enough. nothing in the Greek Translation changes the context of "Gifts of the Holy Spirit".
They know this so they have to interject false narratives like this is pagan, demonic, or create terms from non-Christian or Christian liberal theology like modern tongues and cessationist.
We do agree that there are abuses, misuses of all the gifts the Lord has entrusted us with. Yes, there are those who are in error. Never said there was not. But those who scoff and mock do so to those who seek and believe what they cannot prove biblically that the gifts are not for today.
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there was no name calling spoonie...simply a truthful description of what he does...that is not name calling
I have dealt with Rogie a long long time...he believes if you speak in tongues you do so by the power of a demon
he may not come out and say that now, but sure has in the past
long long history of his anti tongue rants in this forum and why does he have to come on a thread created for informative and polite discussion and start his usual misguided and hateful pokes at people?
at any rate, why make that comment? are you his lawyer?
I have dealt with Rogie a long long time...he believes if you speak in tongues you do so by the power of a demon
he may not come out and say that now, but sure has in the past
long long history of his anti tongue rants in this forum and why does he have to come on a thread created for informative and polite discussion and start his usual misguided and hateful pokes at people?
at any rate, why make that comment? are you his lawyer?
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this is another of your false understandings of scripture Roger
the Holy Spirit did not descend until AFTER...AFTER DUDE AFTER...Jesus ascended
honestly, can you not be truthful at least where scripture is point blank forward about events and no interpretation needed?
and by the way, I'm not sticking up for CS1 as much as I am really ashamed for both of you that you think so little of a moderator that you openly attack them
thing is, the problem with CS1 is that he gives you back your own medicine
poor little boys. should we send you a box of Kleenex and onions to help you cry?
ANY other forum would have banned you and your friend eons back
I know that, because I have been on quite a few in years gone by
in most forums you are not even allowed to contradict a mod
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it's too bad we don't have an emoticon to express how wrong and misinterpreted your understanding is. in fact, the more you try, and I've seen many of your posts on this subject of course, the worse it seems to be getting
I found this one though
I found this one though
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Banning for an different biblical view? Thats then not far from an cult.
This thread claimes to have some truth about the Holy Spirit.
The only records you have for your truth that baptism with the Holy Spirit is always combined with speaking in tongues is acts 2,8,10,19.
Acts 8,10 and 19 can easily be interpretet different rhen you do, if you simply read the text as it is written.
You have to construct texts together which are written down to an different time (John,acts, 1.Cor.) for to get your doctrine. Which was in churchhistory not practised before Agnes ozman in 1900.
Even it was not taught in the letters to the church.
But you sell it as truth.
No gift to day seems more important today as the gift of speaking/praying in tongues. Paul called this gift the lowest gift. But showed an greater one. 1.Cor 13.
I wonder that we dont find so much about this gift love, but to an gift which supports in first way the person self and not others.
The other thing is that you treat children of God which are do not speaking in tongues as not real christians, as christians which deny the power of God. Ore something else.
This is what I cant find in my bible.
Thats why I cant believe that this doctrine is true.
Personel expieriences had also the montanists from the 2nd century, ore the JW ore Irvin and the New apostolic church. But this is for me no proof.
Our expieriences can be right, but the source of it can be wrong.k
This thread claimes to have some truth about the Holy Spirit.
The only records you have for your truth that baptism with the Holy Spirit is always combined with speaking in tongues is acts 2,8,10,19.
Acts 8,10 and 19 can easily be interpretet different rhen you do, if you simply read the text as it is written.
You have to construct texts together which are written down to an different time (John,acts, 1.Cor.) for to get your doctrine. Which was in churchhistory not practised before Agnes ozman in 1900.
Even it was not taught in the letters to the church.
But you sell it as truth.
No gift to day seems more important today as the gift of speaking/praying in tongues. Paul called this gift the lowest gift. But showed an greater one. 1.Cor 13.
I wonder that we dont find so much about this gift love, but to an gift which supports in first way the person self and not others.
The other thing is that you treat children of God which are do not speaking in tongues as not real christians, as christians which deny the power of God. Ore something else.
This is what I cant find in my bible.
Thats why I cant believe that this doctrine is true.
Personel expieriences had also the montanists from the 2nd century, ore the JW ore Irvin and the New apostolic church. But this is for me no proof.
Our expieriences can be right, but the source of it can be wrong.k
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no
banning for being argumentative with a moderator and not only argumentative but pointedly and directly insulting at the same time. that is not disagreeing. that, is actually a personal attack
common sense
believe what you want but I don't know why you constantly have to tell everyone that you don't believe
we believe you already that you don't believe
and I don't have a clue what this is about : Our experiences can be right, but the source of it can be wrong.
that's like saying you can drink poison if it tastes good. it's still poison. don't confuse seeking an experience with seeking God
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no
banning for being argumentative with a moderator and not only argumentative but pointedly and directly insulting at the same time. that is not disagreeing. that, is actually a personal attack
common sense
believe what you want but I don't know why you constantly have to tell everyone that you don't believe
we believe you already that you don't believe
and I don't have a clue what this is about : Our experiences can be right, but the source of it can be wrong.
that's like saying you can drink poison if it tastes good. it's still poison. don't confuse seeking an experience with seeking God
banning for being argumentative with a moderator and not only argumentative but pointedly and directly insulting at the same time. that is not disagreeing. that, is actually a personal attack
common sense
believe what you want but I don't know why you constantly have to tell everyone that you don't believe
we believe you already that you don't believe
and I don't have a clue what this is about : Our experiences can be right, but the source of it can be wrong.
that's like saying you can drink poison if it tastes good. it's still poison. don't confuse seeking an experience with seeking God
I mean that the bible says that satan can show himself as angel of light. And that he will decive even believers in Christ.
I understand, that he will do what looks like right and from God, but is not.
So you can make expieriences which feeling right, but the source of this is false.
It is f.e. strange when I read from some that they are driven to speak in tongues about hours. Who has then the controle if you even dont know what you are saying/praying?
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tell you what
if you can find a post where I said you are not a believer,
I will make a public apology to the entire forum
you know very well I was referring to the fact you do not believe in tongues and not your salvation
I mean don't you think that is a little low to say that to me?
shaking my head
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not quite sure what you are saying here, but it seems you misunderstood
no problem
I know English is not your first language
there would be very few times I would think someone was not really a believer even if they do not agree about tongues
but in that case, I would probably not post it...but I would pray about it
no problem
I know English is not your first language
there would be very few times I would think someone was not really a believer even if they do not agree about tongues
but in that case, I would probably not post it...but I would pray about it
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Hi Wolfwint, I'm finally getting the chance to get back to you. My answers will be brief, but not spiteful. Feel free to ask for more examples or greater detail.
Which church history are you following? Please remember, if a church doesn't have or teach "speaking in tongues", they would also exclude documents that support 'speaking in tongues' from their church records.
I honestly don't track histories of churches, but this quote seems to show that 'speaking in tongues' was indeed still present, but not in the church/churches you follow.
On a separate note, speaking in tongues isn't a doctrine. It is something a person either receives or doesn't receive. That's why it is not limited to one church or another. Anyone who seeks God can receive it...even if the preacher doesn't expect them to receive it, and/or doesn't tell them they are supposed to receive it. (As the Acts 10 account shows.)
Did the Bible say Acts is not for doctrine?? Or was it man that told you that? (Please be honest) Because the Bible says "ALL scripture... is profitable for doctrine". Acts = Scripture, so Acts = profitable for doctrine.
I'm struggling to find words to convey how distasteful it is that churches disregard the book of Acts (the word of God) so they can tell their congregations "Please don't base your ideas about the Holy Ghost on what God put in the book of Acts, but instead on what we teach."
One reason we need books like Acts, and Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, where we can SEE the fulfilling of scriptures, is so we cannot deny what it actually looks like when it arrives. Because what we THINK it should be (by trying to understand the scriptures) often bears little resemblance to what it ACTUALLY is when it arrives. To see an example of this, one only has to look at the Jewish scholars and church leaders when the Messiah actually arrived. They studied and studied the scriptures...but couldn't even recognize Him when he was standing in their midst. So it is with the Holy Ghost. Did you or I (by reading Matthew-John) expect that the Holy Ghost would come with speaking in tongues??? And if not, when we saw it in Acts 2, did we then understand and expect it to be given to Cornelius and his group in Acts 10? or again in Acts 19? If it wasn't for the word of God (book of Acts) RECORDING it for our observation, we would likely have missed it altogether.
I'll address the points from the rest of your quote in another posting, but I kinda want to see how you react to this much first. However, I may post more before you get a chance to respond.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Which church history are you following? Please remember, if a church doesn't have or teach "speaking in tongues", they would also exclude documents that support 'speaking in tongues' from their church records.
I honestly don't track histories of churches, but this quote seems to show that 'speaking in tongues' was indeed still present, but not in the church/churches you follow.
On a separate note, speaking in tongues isn't a doctrine. It is something a person either receives or doesn't receive. That's why it is not limited to one church or another. Anyone who seeks God can receive it...even if the preacher doesn't expect them to receive it, and/or doesn't tell them they are supposed to receive it. (As the Acts 10 account shows.)
Did the Bible say Acts is not for doctrine?? Or was it man that told you that? (Please be honest) Because the Bible says "ALL scripture... is profitable for doctrine". Acts = Scripture, so Acts = profitable for doctrine.
I'm struggling to find words to convey how distasteful it is that churches disregard the book of Acts (the word of God) so they can tell their congregations "Please don't base your ideas about the Holy Ghost on what God put in the book of Acts, but instead on what we teach."
One reason we need books like Acts, and Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, where we can SEE the fulfilling of scriptures, is so we cannot deny what it actually looks like when it arrives. Because what we THINK it should be (by trying to understand the scriptures) often bears little resemblance to what it ACTUALLY is when it arrives. To see an example of this, one only has to look at the Jewish scholars and church leaders when the Messiah actually arrived. They studied and studied the scriptures...but couldn't even recognize Him when he was standing in their midst. So it is with the Holy Ghost. Did you or I (by reading Matthew-John) expect that the Holy Ghost would come with speaking in tongues??? And if not, when we saw it in Acts 2, did we then understand and expect it to be given to Cornelius and his group in Acts 10? or again in Acts 19? If it wasn't for the word of God (book of Acts) RECORDING it for our observation, we would likely have missed it altogether.
I'll address the points from the rest of your quote in another posting, but I kinda want to see how you react to this much first. However, I may post more before you get a chance to respond.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
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Dear Kelby, when i speak from church history, then i speak from the whole churchhistory and not from an specific denomination. According some defination churchhistory is all what happend about christianity after the biblical evidence.
So the RCC f.e. dominate in the westchurch the history till the reformation time.
It is in my eyes remarkable, that non single founder of the reformation taught and practice in tongues. Although this happend in certain extreme groups like in germany (münster). But these groups even the use prophecie and speaking in tongues dont become known as serious biblical groups, but as heretic groups with much sinful deeds. So i dont believe that the Holy Spirit stand behind such groups.
I dont see Irving and the New Apostolic church, the Mormons, JW ore the RCC as regular christian churches.I dont know any denomination which taught and practised speaking in tongues. From their foundation on.
No Baptist, no Mennonite, no Calvinist, no Protestant, no reformed
(today of course you will find it in every denomination)
You say it is not an teaching.
Well, then i must clearify what i understand under the gift of talking in tongues.4
According 1.Cor. 12- 14, speaking in tongues is an gift like all other spirituell gifts and is not the highest gift.
- (btw in the epistel to the romans, which content nearly everything what a christian should know. The gift of speaking in tongues is not even mentioned. Thats not understandable if this gift is playing the role in the christian life according it is teached today)-
If you mean that i agree with you that this is no teaching.
But,
what we find since 1900 is with the first person which became the gift of speaking in tongues (Agnes Ozman)
became it an doctrine. The baptising with the Holy Spirit is combined with the gift of speaking in tongues.
This was not taught and practized before, orherwise Agnes Ozman would not called the first person and the beginning of the movement would not start with this event.
Also i have to clarify that I see an diffetent between church ( gatheting from believers) and mission situation.
I was 20 years involved in mission ministry in india, and from the witnesses often healing and miracles played in role that people turned to Christ, when Missionaries ore the church prayed. So in mission conditions the Lord uses the word and more supernatural deeds ( sometimes also in translating from a tongue) to call the people, what he normally not must do among believers (church).
Today we discuss about speaking in tongues among believers. And this arose with the pentecostal doctrine of baptized with the Holy Spirit and as proof for this the gift of speaking in tongues. Later then came other doctrines from charismatic side.
Also strange for me and not to read in the NT lettets to the church ore the Coworkers, that the baptising with the Holy Spirit goes along with wind, noise, shoumove out of controle, lcontrol out of controle, winding on the ground, acting and noising like animals, laying without ability to move.
So the RCC f.e. dominate in the westchurch the history till the reformation time.
It is in my eyes remarkable, that non single founder of the reformation taught and practice in tongues. Although this happend in certain extreme groups like in germany (münster). But these groups even the use prophecie and speaking in tongues dont become known as serious biblical groups, but as heretic groups with much sinful deeds. So i dont believe that the Holy Spirit stand behind such groups.
I dont see Irving and the New Apostolic church, the Mormons, JW ore the RCC as regular christian churches.I dont know any denomination which taught and practised speaking in tongues. From their foundation on.
No Baptist, no Mennonite, no Calvinist, no Protestant, no reformed
(today of course you will find it in every denomination)
You say it is not an teaching.
Well, then i must clearify what i understand under the gift of talking in tongues.4
According 1.Cor. 12- 14, speaking in tongues is an gift like all other spirituell gifts and is not the highest gift.
- (btw in the epistel to the romans, which content nearly everything what a christian should know. The gift of speaking in tongues is not even mentioned. Thats not understandable if this gift is playing the role in the christian life according it is teached today)-
If you mean that i agree with you that this is no teaching.
But,
what we find since 1900 is with the first person which became the gift of speaking in tongues (Agnes Ozman)
became it an doctrine. The baptising with the Holy Spirit is combined with the gift of speaking in tongues.
This was not taught and practized before, orherwise Agnes Ozman would not called the first person and the beginning of the movement would not start with this event.
Also i have to clarify that I see an diffetent between church ( gatheting from believers) and mission situation.
I was 20 years involved in mission ministry in india, and from the witnesses often healing and miracles played in role that people turned to Christ, when Missionaries ore the church prayed. So in mission conditions the Lord uses the word and more supernatural deeds ( sometimes also in translating from a tongue) to call the people, what he normally not must do among believers (church).
Today we discuss about speaking in tongues among believers. And this arose with the pentecostal doctrine of baptized with the Holy Spirit and as proof for this the gift of speaking in tongues. Later then came other doctrines from charismatic side.
Also strange for me and not to read in the NT lettets to the church ore the Coworkers, that the baptising with the Holy Spirit goes along with wind, noise, shoumove out of controle, lcontrol out of controle, winding on the ground, acting and noising like animals, laying without ability to move.