Question about Scriptural Interpretation

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Chester said:
We have different ways of approaching text:

I prefer to just simply look at what it says and not make conclusions from reasoning.

From your entry above it is clear you enjoy using deductive reasoning to come to conclusions about the text.
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Tell me how I can take the text any other way?

Do we allow the text to contradict itself? And if we do. under what circumstances

I just took the text for what it says, and looked to see if it could mean anything else.

and if I am honest, I do not even have to deductive read it, I can just literally interpret it and it says the same thing.

You can not make it say anythign else apart from adding to the text. and why would you want to do that?
 
Chester said:
Do you believe what the text says? (I John 3:9) And if so, what does it say?
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Yeah I believe what it says.

It says what you and EG said:

1John 3:9 ESV: "No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God."
 
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eternally-gratefull said:
Tell me how I can take the text any other way?

Do we allow the text to contradict itself? And if we do. under what circumstances

I just took the text for what it says, and looked to see if it could mean anything else.

and if I am honest, I do not even have to deductive read it, I can just literally interpret it and it says the same thing.

You can not make it say anythign else apart from adding to the text. and why would you want to do that?
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I think I will stop now - plus I have a class to teach in a few minutes! ;)

I think we have have both said about all we can say without saying what we would like to say to one another! :eek:

Actually, you are a great guy, and I respect your views - . . . . . . (well, most . . .
 
By the way, If you look in the greek. the terms "seen: and "known" are both in the perfect tense. preceded by a negative pronoun, this means that whoever sin as always been in a state of not knowing God. Even if you believe a child of God by stopping abiding in CHrist can return to a life of sin. The negative perfect words prove that they could not have ever known God if they do this
 
Chester said:
I think I will stop now - plus I have a class to teach in a few minutes! ;)

I think we have have both said about all we can say without saying what we would like to say to one another! :eek:

Actually, you are a great guy, and I respect your views - . . . . . . (well, most . . .
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lol.. Your not one I would say anything bad to. (at least I hope not, if i have forgive me) You are always respectful, and you do not lie about other people you tell it the way it is.

I respect that
 
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Hevosmies said:
Yeah I believe what it says.

It says what you and EG said:

1John 3:9 ESV: "No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God."
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Oh, Hevosmies, you make me laugh so hard my belly hurts! Yes, I believe exactly what the verse says in the ESV - but EG and I were not saying the same thing about this verse: look carefully!
 
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Chester said:
Oh, Hevosmies, you make me laugh so hard my belly hurts! Yes, I believe exactly what the verse says in the ESV - but EG and I were not saying the same thing about this verse: look carefully!
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What did I say???

How many views can we have on one verse?

Here is how I break it down:

Those who are born again, the real Christians, they wont be habitual unrepentant sinners, just sinning willfully all day all night, and they cant do that because they've been born again and God's seed is in them! They will get convicted by God's Spirit if they do so and feel terrible

Do you agree with thaT?
 
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I understand the argument, abiding (present tense) in Christ. leaves open that it may not have always been, or even MAY mean there will come a time when it is not true

But if your going to use that argument, You also have to use the argument that perfect negative means someone is in that state of never knowing, and it is a completed action, which has always been true.
 
Hevosmies said:
What did I say???

How many views can we have on one verse?

Here is how I break it down:

Those who are born again, the real Christians, they wont be habitual unrepentant sinners, just sinning willfully all day all night, and they cant do that because they've been born again and God's seed is in them! They will get convicted by God's Spirit if they do so and feel terrible

Do you agree with thaT?
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I could be wrong, But he uses the present tense form to mean at this time they can not live in sin, But it does not mean they never will.
 
Chester said:
What do you mean by "avoid literalizing"?
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What I meant is there is more then one level understanding given throughout the bible. . The spiritual understanding that we are freely given , I beleive does not effect the historical witness but rather both are used as a parable.

If we search for the spiritual understanding or not search it would not effect salvation. Perhaps to create different fingerprints as to our private interpretations seeing it is God who makes us differ from one another unless any man boast ?

What the human eyes see and ears hears, and what the human eye cannot see or ear hear .He gives us ears to hear him, and eyes of a new heart to see, as those who previously had none.(faith)

I would suggest the gospel thread hid in parables is woven through the scriptures. In what is called a signified language. It introduces the book of Revelation revealing what is called the hidden mana in Chapter 2:17.

Revelation is shown as not only inspired, moved by the Spirit. But it as it is written, is also defined by the same Spirit of truth

Revelation 1 King James Version (KJV)The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
 
You guys are making me crazy with all this present tense perfect tense greek words.

Oy vey!

I dont even know what "perfect negative" means in ENGLISH, or in my native language, LET ALONE GREEK!
I dropped out at 9th graed! Im a gypsy warrior what do you think I know???
 
Hevosmies said:
You guys are making me crazy with all this present tense perfect tense greek words.

Oy vey!

I dont even know what "perfect negative" means in ENGLISH, or in my native language, LET ALONE GREEK!
I dropped out at 9th graed! Im a gypsy warrior what do you think I know???
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it would be like this

Present tense would say, "are not knowing" God.

Perfect tense means "NEVER knew god"

its a big difference

One thing to remember, the english text can not fully interpret the gree, the greek is a far more intensive and full language. (the english does not have a perfect tense word, the present or oftimes the past tense (ie like here as in seen and known) form of the word will be used)
 
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eternally-gratefull said:
it would be like this

Present tense would say, "are not knowing" God.

Perfect tense means "NEVER knew god"

its a big difference

One thing to remember, the english text can not fully interpret the gree, the greek is a far more intensive and full language. (the english does not have a perfect tense word, the present or oftimes the past tense (ie like here as in seen and known) form of the word will be used)
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I have heard Angela say that language gets dumber and dumber all the time! Its not evolving, its DEVOLVING! I belive her. She knows greek too btw!

I see the difference now, Thanks for explaining it to me in layman's terms bro

I believe the verse says NEVER knew God. Because are not knowing God just seems like an odd way to speak! And in light of the context, its talking about being BORN again and God's seed remaining in you. So it cant be back and forth!
 
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Hevosmies said:
I have heard Angela say that language gets dumber and dumber all the time! Its not evolving, its DEVOLVING! I belive her. She knows greek too btw!

I see the difference now, Thanks for explaining it to me in layman's terms bro

I believe the verse says NEVER knew God. Because are not knowing God just seems like an odd way to speak! And in light of the context, its talking about being BORN again and God's seed remaining in you. So it cant be back and forth!
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Amen, Taking it literally I agree.

It is when people bring up questions as to what it is saying we have to go deeper.

in this example. I can see, since present tense is used, (whoever is abiding) Maybe a person can later fall back into sin? However, if this were true, the negative would have to be present to (are not seeing or knowing God). The fact is is perfect negative means I can not take the first to mean it could ever change. One cancels out the other, this is using scripture to interpret scripture. Our personal biases aside, it can not mean anything else.
 
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Chester said:
Which is best, or which is correct?

Does one study a particular text to determine what is overall Biblical doctrine?
OR
Does one use overall Biblical doctrine to determine the meaning of a particular text?
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I think this is a good question

the first and foremost is salvation. After entering into a relationship with Christ and the Holy Spirit we are able to have our understanding opened. james 1:5 if any man lacks wisdom let him ask of God.

Then we are to study the word of God and can use various types of theological methods which cover many subjects in the word of God. One is known as Systematic theology:

  • Prolegomena (first principles)
  • Theology Proper. The existence of God. The attributes of God. ...
  • Doctrine of Man (theological anthropology)
  • Christology.
  • Soteriology. Justification. Sanctification.
  • Pneumatology (doctrine of the Holy Spirit)
  • Ecclesiology (doctrine of the Church)
  • Eschatology and the afterlife.
in each topic, it is important to seek the authorial intent who was it written to, what was the time frame in which it was written, and how did they apply it then, and how do we apply today.

simplify it by using the acronym S.O.A.P

Scripture
Observation
Application
Pray

you do this when studying the word of God you will learn.
 
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CS1 said:
Then we are to study the word of God and can use various types of theological methods which cover many subjects in the word of God. One is known as Systematic theology:

  • Prolegomena (first principles)
  • Theology Proper. The existence of God. The attributes of God. ...
  • Doctrine of Man (theological anthropology)
  • Christology.
  • Soteriology. Justification. Sanctification.
  • Pneumatology (doctrine of the Holy Spirit)
  • Ecclesiology (doctrine of the Church)
  • Eschatology and the afterlife.
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How many "systematics" are there to choose from?
 
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Hevosmies said:
You guys are making me crazy with all this present tense perfect tense greek words.

Oy vey!

I dont even know what "perfect negative" means in ENGLISH, or in my native language, LET ALONE GREEK!
I dropped out at 9th graed! Im a gypsy warrior what do you think I know???
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LOL! But you are honest and real and down to Earth - and I love your humor!
 
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Hevosmies said:
What did I say???

How many views can we have on one verse?

Here is how I break it down:

Those who are born again, the real Christians, they wont be habitual unrepentant sinners, just sinning willfully all day all night, and they cant do that because they've been born again and God's seed is in them! They will get convicted by God's Spirit if they do so and feel terrible

Do you agree with thaT?
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You want me to pull apart you analysis? you asked for it! LOL! :cautious: ;)

(1) First of all you bring in a wrong assumption, that there are "real Christians" and I guess not real Christians -- Sorry, there are only Christians and non-Christians

(2) The verse says absolutely nothing about repenting or not repenting of the sinning.

(3) And actually, it does not anything about sinning "willfully" - sinning continuously and sinning willfully are not the same thing

(4) And the verse says nothing about the Spirit convicting of the sin (Now of course this might happen but that is not what the verse says!)

I have nothing against what you say - it is probably pretty true, but it is not a correct exegetical meaning of the verse.
 
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