Thou shalt not kill

Deade · Mar 13, 2019

Self Defense - An excerpt from my Book

What about military service? Most Christians would say don’t serve; or if you do enlist, do so as a conscientious objector so as not to serve in battle. I also thought that would be my case, as I could easily give my life for my beliefs. Then the Lord asked me to think of certain scenarios. Yes, God will talk to you if you are deep in meditation and prayer. When He got to the one about self defense of my household, He said my house was taken over by terrorists; and they were sure to tie up the males to watch as the females (wives and daughters) were raped and killed. Then the males would be killed. If I knew this beforehand, would I do something? I told the Lord that He would have to forgive me; but I would try to stop it from happening——even if it meant deadly force. Then the Lord told me that it would be okay, but I was being a hypocrite. If I could defend my family, I could also defend my country and/or community.

I deducted that God looks at this life as more temporal, and life and death being less important than most of us believe. We know that David, in ancient Judah, was close to God and knew His laws and statutes. Do you think that one of David’s soldiers could have claimed conscientious objector? I think not! Remember, David was dealing with the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ, just as all the ancient patriarchs were. Jesus also instructed the ancient Israelites to kill off all the inhabitants of the land they were to possess. Don’t misunderstand me, war is awful and gruesome and should be completely outlawed. In a perfect world, war would be unnecessary——this isn’t a perfect world.

I believe if a soldier is acting on orders that he carries out in a humane fashion, he can stand before God blameless. All war will cause some innocent civilians to be killed. God does not smile on this, but it is a fact of life. Thankfully, when God establishes the kingdom of God here on earth, this will all be over and done.

Lanolin · Mar 13, 2019

Sipsey said:

Did you kill someone? Just wondering.
People can kill by the words they speak. Not just by bullet holes and swords. But also you can kill someone by driving too fast. They call it auto-cide.

Lanolin · Mar 13, 2019

Just wondering has anyone here killed someone. If you have, why did you do it, and have you repented and been forgiven?

If you were told by someone else to kill someone, did you obey them or did you obey God.

I'm just reading some of the replies here and they all seem hypothetical but this happens in real life so if youve had experience then tell us. Or it may be a family member killed someone. Or someone killed someone close to you. Did they own up? If you in the army what were you told about the enemy?

Recall Moses, Paul and David all killed people. Samson killed many.

SIMON55 · Mar 13, 2019

Sipsey said:

Physical death can be a good thing, or it can be eternally sad.

God made distinctions between accidental killing, wartime deaths and murder. If all killing was equal, it would seem God wasted a lot space in His Bible showing the difference.

Here is a short piece that clarifies the distinction for those without a shovel.

“Murder vs Killing”
I occasionally present a talk on the nature of truth, and as part of this presentation, I discuss the existence of objective moral truth claims. I often ask my attendees if it is ever “OK” to kill someone. Every group typically contains a large number of people who believe the Christian worldview condemns the use of deadly force unilaterally. But the Scripture delineates a distinction between killing and murdering. “You shall not kill” is actually not a command found in the Ten Commandments. The command from scripture in the original language actually says “You shall not murder” (Exodus 20:13). The Hebrew word for “murder” literally means “the intentional, premeditated killing of another person with malice.”

Interestingly, most of us are familiar with this definition of murder, because it is reflected in the Penal Codes of our country. In my home state of California, the Penal Code provides this definition of murder:
187. (a) Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being, or a fetus, with malice aforethought.
Malice is a form of evil intent that separates “murder” from “killing”. Even today there are acceptable forms of killing that lack this kind of evil intent, and these forms of killing exist as exceptions in the murder laws of the United States. In California, for example, a homicide is justified (according to Penal Code sections 187, 196 and 197) if one of the following conditions is met:
A person kills someone accidentally
A person is trying to defend him or herself and prevent his or her own murder (self-defense)
A person is trying to prevent someone from entering his or her house to commit some violent felony
A person is trying to prevent the murder of someone else (protecting an innocent)
In all these situations, killing is actually legal and justifiable, and exceptions of this nature exist in the Penal Codes of every state in America. Even those who don’t accept the existence of God or the authority of the Bible recognize the necessity for laws like these; laws that allow for deadly force to be used to accomplish some greater good.

It’s interesting to note, however, these exceptions are not the invention of modern humans; they are simply a reflection of ancient Biblical Law. The Bible is the source for these modern laws and the exceptions come straight from the pages of scripture:

An accidental killing is not murder:
Exodus 21:12-13
Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death. However, if he does not do it intentionally, but God lets it happen, he is to flee to a place I will designate.

Numbers 35:22-25
But if without hostility someone suddenly shoves another or throws something at him unintentionally or, without seeing him, drops a stone on him that could kill him, and he dies, then since he was not his enemy and he did not intend to harm him, the assembly must judge between him and the avenger of blood according to these regulations. The assembly must protect the one accused of murder from the avenger of blood and send him back to the city of refuge to which he fled.

A killing performed in self-defense (or in defense of one’s home) is not murder:
Exodus 22:2
If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so that he dies, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed
A killing performed in an attempt to save the life of an innocent person is not murder:
Exodus 2:11-12

One day, after Moses had grown up, he went out to where his own people were and watched them at their hard labor. He saw an Egyptian beating a Hebrew, one of his own people. Glancing this way and that and seeing no one, he killed the Egyptian and hid him in the sand. (God did not judge Moses as a murderer because he was protecting the life of the slave)

Genesis 14:14-16
When Abram heard that his relative had been taken captive, he called out the 318 trained men born in his household and went in pursuit as far as Dan. During the night Abram divided his men to attack them and he routed them, pursuing them as far as Hobah, north of Damascus. He recovered all the goods and brought back his relative Lot and his possessions, together with the women and the other people. (God did not judge Abram as a murderer because he was protecting the life of Lot)

Killing becomes murder when (and only when) it is not properly justified, and the justifications are clear: you can use whatever force necessary to protect your own life from a hostile aggressor, or to save the life of an innocent from such imminent, life-threatening danger. The difference between the legal or illegal use of deadly force is really a matter of motive, intent and justification, and these distinctions come straight from the pages of Scripture.
J. Warner Wallace is a Cold-Case Detective

Thank you for taking the time to lay out all the law tradition over 2500+ years for these knuckleheads here. I actually knew all this but from my phone wasn't going to tr and lay it all out and chase down the detail. The scripture uses the term he who lays in waiting for premeditation somewhere.
These people aren't reading or being taught their scriptures right they try to make the Lords words of none effect they don't. Understan not one dot or tittle.
The OT has unfulfilled prophecy. If you dont understand Dan 2 4 7 8 you can't understand REV.

Sipsey · Mar 13, 2019

Lanolin said:

Lanolin,
Have you paid your taxes for a number of years? Do you live in the U.S.? Anyone who has contributed their taxes to our government is somewhat complicit since our soldiers, planes and bombs have killed quite a few in recent years- decades.

Some may see this as a stretch, do you? Or are you only accountable for any that you may personally kill/ murder? Was all of Israel sent into captivity, or only the sinners?

NayborBear · Mar 13, 2019

John146 said:

UBETCHA!

Up to, and including the baring of arms against ALL enemies! Foreign and/OR domestic!

Methinks, you don't even realize, that through the taxes you pay for "Law enforcement?" At whatever levels, from Federal, down to your local police? You are BY PROXY? TELLING THEM it is alright for them to kill someone in their contending and DEFENDING "YOUR" FAITH! RIGHT?

How HYPOCRITICALLY DELUSIONAL you MAKE YOURSELVES to BE! -smh

John146 · Mar 13, 2019

NayborBear said:

Nope, pay unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar even when I don’t agree with the way they may spend it. Don’t you pay taxes?

Again, all I’m doing is asking questions and people are jumping to conclusions. I’m looking for Scripture to back up claims. That’s all.

Lanolin · Mar 13, 2019

Sipsey said:

No i dont live in America and dont pay taxes to america.
If you support killing in your own nation you would have some responisbility. I think people get put in jail for killing by their own hand though, the justice system there doesnt take into account indirect killing.

For example Judas, he didnt directly kill Jesus, but he was murdered by him all the same by his betrayal.

Lanolin · Mar 13, 2019

Wow yea if you live in america and supported killing people you are all guilty, I can think of instances like Vietnam, Hiroshima, all those who died in race riots, unborn babies killed by abortions.

All of you need to be in jail. Just because you didnt kill someone of your own country or race or the unborn child wasnt yet born isnt any excuse. Also I recall that many presidents of the us were killed by their own people!! I mean what is with that?

Sipsey · Mar 13, 2019

All, have sinned, and come short of the Glory of God. Whether by direct result or complicity, we are all guilty of the death of Jesus, for He died for all of our sins. The sins of the world, and the sins of us who debate.

We are indeed , all guilty. The question is not one of guilt, but of forgiveness!

Lanolin · Mar 13, 2019

If youve receive forgiveness, then what does Jesus tell us, go and sin no more. Dont partake in peoples evil deeds.

Perhaps another protest march is in order...? I find it ironic that the non violent protests in america for civil rights ended with their leader Martin Luther King being shot and killed and then more race riots after that. Will people not learn...NOT to kill each other????

Lanolin · Mar 13, 2019

Lets look at Paul he was guilty in stephen death and for persecuting christians what did God do well he sent Paul away to be a missionary to the gentiles and spread the gospel. Such a turnaround.
He wasnt put in jail for that crime but he was jailed various times for preaching the gospel. Also he learned what a lot of suffering he had caused when he became the persecuted one.

NayborBear · Mar 13, 2019

Lanolin said:

Lemme ask ya a question, if ya will.
Do you think God had something to do with the curse the Jews pronounced upon themselves on the day of Jesus' trial?
Matthew 27
24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.
25 Then answered ALL the people, and said, His BLOOD be upon US, AND on our children.

Do you think God had something to do with the rise of Nazi Germany, in the Executing this curse the Jews pronounced upon themselves?

And, do you think, God had something to do, with the Colonies, when God was "satisfied", the Jewish people and nation had "Suffered ENOUGH?" Because, as sure as the "Pope is Catholic? p)", They were not going to cease until they had EXTERMINATED EVERY JEW THEY COULD GET THEIR HANDS ON!

Although Jesus never mentioned killing. His Father, on the other hand, DOES!

There are SOME "matters", if you will, the Father DOES, for the SAKE of His Son!

Just because the Bible tells of things in history?

Doesn't at all mean "HIS-STORY", is finished!

Not by a long shot, it isn't!

So, do you think God has something to do with the rise of sexual promiscuity, and abortion clinics, and drug cartels, and Homo's in Church, and corrupt political officials, and public servants, in the states, yea, even the whole planet? While the whole congregation reaches for the sky, praising God, saying, "we have read the back of the book, and God wins!" When they should be turning their plowshares into weapons?

(paraphrasing here) In that day? God is going to ask Jesus. "Do you know these people?" "Cuz, they ain't mine!" And, Jesus is going to acknowledge to the people: "Y'all ain't mine EITHER!"

Not EVERYONE, of course! But, many MANY!

Lanolin · Mar 13, 2019

Ok have thought of some ways americans can make restitution and make amends for their sins as a nation.

Vietnam..invite war ravaged vietnamese people to find homes and education opportunities in america. Send gardeners and permaculturalists to heal the land they destoryed by agent orange. Support orphangages that had to be created because of killing all those parents.

Hiroshima, Japan, again, invite Japanese people and support them in rebuilding and healing their land ravaged by toxic radiation.

Unborn babies. People that were involved in abortions or supoorted them leave their jobs and work in schools and daycare help with bringing up children, or work in nurseries and realise the value of young life. Help with solo mothers with no parents or husbands to support them. Exhort dead beat dads to step up to be responisble fathers to their children. Teach skills annd create jobs support them so they can provide for their family.

All those involved with racial motivated killings need to look to joining a multicultural church. Realise that people that look different to you or speak a differnt language or are poorer can be one in Christ.

Lanolin · Mar 13, 2019

NayborBear said:

Lemme ask ya a question, if ya will.
Do you think God had something to do with the curse the Jews pronounced upon themselves on the day of Jesus' trial?
Matthew 27
24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.
25 Then answered ALL the people, and said, His BLOOD be upon US, AND on our children.

Do you think God had something to do with the rise of Nazi Germany, in the Executing this curse the Jews pronounced upon themselves?

And, do you think, God had something to do, with the Colonies, when God was "satisfied", the Jewish people and nation had "Suffered ENOUGH?" Because, as sure as the "Pope is Catholic? p)", They were not going to cease until they had EXTERMINATED EVERY JEW THEY COULD GET THEIR HANDS ON!

Although Jesus never mentioned killing. His Father, on the other hand, DOES!

There are SOME "matters", if you will, the Father DOES, for the SAKE of His Son!

Just because the Bible tells of things in history?

Doesn't at all mean "HIS-STORY", is finished!

Not by a long shot, it isn't!

So, do you think God has something to do with the rise of sexual promiscuity, and abortion clinics, and drug cartels, and Homo's in Church, and corrupt political officials, and public servants, in the states, yea, even the whole planet? While the whole congregation reaches for the sky, praising God, saying, "we have read the back of the book, and God wins!" When they should be turning their plowshares into weapons?

(paraphrasing here) In that day? God is going to ask Jesus. "Do you know these people?" "Cuz, they ain't mine!" And, Jesus is going to acknowledge to the people: "Y'all ain't mine EITHER!"

Not EVERYONE, of course! But, many MANY!

What you mean satan, the god of this world, for sure.

preston39 · Mar 13, 2019

Garydavid said:

No.
There is further scripture against defacing/harming a body also.

Taking one's own life and cremation has..... by majority...... come about since ...new age religion arrived in the 1960's.

preston39 · Mar 13, 2019

Sipsey said:

Lanolin,
Have you paid your taxes for a number of years? Do you live in the U.S.? Anyone who has contributed their taxes to our government is somewhat complicit since our soldiers, planes and bombs have killed quite a few in recent years- decades.

Some may see this as a stretch, do you? Or are you only accountable for any that you may personally kill/ murder? Was all of Israel sent into captivity, or only the sinners?

Not scripture....as relates to justifiable war.

Lanolin · Mar 13, 2019

Its turning spears into pruning shears and weapons into plows not the other way round...I know some people get that complely mixed up and think God wants them to kill all non christians. Um no.

Sipsey · Mar 13, 2019

Lanolin said:

That sounds really good! Much of what you say should be done, has been done. However, there is no restitution that any individual can do to negate even 1 small sin. Didn’t David say, Only against you Lord, have I sinned?

I invite you to see the real America, and not what the news portrays. There is the good, the bad and ugly in every collection of humanity on this earth, and to point as more egregious, sins of one group or country lends itself to legalism and pride.

SpoonJuly · Mar 13, 2019

If it were not for some good guys killing a lot of bad guys, none of us would be on this forum discussing this.
The bad guys would have eliminated all Christians long ago.
Will happen again if we are not willing to stand up and fight for our freedom.
I do not want to fight. Don't want to kill anyone. But I will if necessary to keep you and me free so we can continue to discuss this topic.

Thou shalt not kill

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