Name It and Claim It

[tourist]

I was not assuming, that was why I asked you.

Before I bring in the context of thorn in the OT, can you accept that thorn in the flesh need not have to mean a physical sickness? I am not asking you to believe that, just want to know whether you can accept that Paul was not necessarily talking about sickness.

As an example, if I were to write, "You are such a pain in my neck", do I literally mean you are afflicting my neck?

I personally believe that the thorn in Paul's flesh was a sin problem of some sort that he was trying to control on his own. Sort of like a disease. Whatever the thorn was Paul did pray 3 times for God to remove it only to be finally told that God's grace is sufficient. This can be true for someone praying for healing as well. Not everyone who prays for healing in faith gets healed in their lifetime as it must be in accordance with God's will and desire. This is true for any prayer beside prayers for healing. That's just the way that it is.

 

[Guojing]

This really depends upon your soteriology doesn't it? Reformed people believe that salvation is solely from God. That was my experience! God saved me, told me to believe and follow him, and I did. No "name it and claim it" at all.

Even true Arminians believe God's calling opens the door to salvation. I think any Christian should be totally insulted that salvation is "name it and claim it!" This is my biggest objection to the entire Word Faith heresy! A real heresy is about how you view God, or how you are saved.

If indeed you are from the Reformed Churches, then I now understand better why you are so against "name it and claim it". For these Christians I have interacted with, they have the view that salvation is entirely from God, including the faith to believe in him.

So the chosen ones who were pre-selected by God, they could not resist that call, and all of them are inevitably saved, with zero action needed from them. They deemed this belief as "Irresistible Grace".

Again that is their belief and I understand where they are coming from. It is perfectly understandable that if one holds the view that salvation is limited only to a chosen group, then healing consequently cannot be "name and claim", because it would imply Man has a part to play.

 

[Guojing]

I personally believe that the thorn in Paul's flesh was a sin problem of some sort that he was trying to control on his own. Sort of like a disease. Whatever the thorn was Paul did pray 3 times for God to remove it only to be finally told that God's grace is sufficient. This can be true for someone praying for healing as well. Not everyone who prays for healing in faith gets healed in their lifetime as it must be in accordance with God's will and desire. This is true for any prayer beside prayers for healing. That's just the way that it is.

When you are saved, there cannot be a sin problem since Jesus became your sin and your became his righteousness. Thus I believe what you are saying is that you have decided in your heart that "thorn in the flesh" must therefore mean physical disease.

Okay, I respect your view. Cheers.

 

[wolfwint]

If indeed you are from the Reformed Churches, then I now understand better why you are so against "name it and claim it". For these Christians I have interacted with, they have the view that salvation is entirely from God, including the faith to believe in him.

So the chosen ones who were pre-selected by God, they could not resist that call, and all of them are inevitably saved, with zero action needed from them. They deemed this belief as "Irresistible Grace".

Again that is their belief and I understand where they are coming from. It is perfectly understandable that if one holds the view that salvation is limited only to a chosen group, then healing consequently cannot be "name and claim", because it would imply Man has a part to play.

I dont think, this has to do much with the churchbackground. It has much more to do that : name it and claim it, is an man made doctrine out of he bible like many cults defend there doctrines, but you cant find it, special the healing thing, taught in the churches which are mentioned in the bible. And if this doctrine is right ore important for believers we should expect that this was taught to the belivers of the first churches. But this is not the case.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Thus I believe what you are saying is that you have decided in your heart that "thorn in the flesh" must therefore mean physical disease.

It is not anyone's decision to arrive at that conclusion. The thorn in the flesh (the body) was probably a physical disability (rather than a disease). The term *thorn* implies an irritant, and a constant pain in the body, perhaps a crippling disability. Satan was behind this (with God's allowance, just as in Job), and God would not remove it so that Paul would depend totally on the grace of God.

 

[Guojing]

It is not anyone's decision to arrive at that conclusion. The thorn in the flesh (the body) was probably a physical disability (rather than a disease). The term *thorn* implies an irritant, and a constant pain in the body, perhaps a crippling disability. Satan was behind this (with God's allowance, just as in Job), and God would not remove it so that Paul would depend totally on the grace of God.

What do you understand by the term “pain in the neck”?

 

[Nehemiah6]

What do you understand by the term “pain in the neck”?

That is a metaphor which has no bearing on the subject. Anyone who is a nuisance is a pain in the neck.

 

[Guojing]

That is a metaphor which has no bearing on the subject. Anyone who is a nuisance is a pain in the neck.

So are you willing to accept that there is a possibility that Paul really meant it to be a messenger sent from Satan to go against paul teaching, and not a literal thorn?

You can still hold on to your opinion that it refers to disability.

 

[PennEd]

It is not anyone's decision to arrive at that conclusion. The thorn in the flesh (the body) was probably a physical disability (rather than a disease). The term *thorn* implies an irritant, and a constant pain in the body, perhaps a crippling disability. Satan was behind this (with God's allowance, just as in Job), and God would not remove it so that Paul would depend totally on the grace of God.

Gasp!!! DON'T SAY THE "J" (Job) word!!

The blab it and grab it guys whistle right past that Book!

 

[KelbyofGod]

As to why I fightbtgis horrible lie - because I was told I had no faith by 2 Word Faith people when their prayers did not heal me. I was in horrific physical pain, and I was stabbed in the back, by my 2 closest friends, who got sucked into this cult of death! Death, because when the woman got breast cancer, instead of doing chemo and radiation, she claimed healing, and died a year later when the cancer metastasized. The other friend got rushed to emergency, almost dead, for surgery, when he claimed a healing that didn't work. He survived, thanks to the doctors and surgery.

As for me, I turned away from God, stopped reading my bible and going to church. I was hurt to the core of my being. But God brought me back. He told me to read 5 Psalms a day. I met real people there, who were suffering, hurting but praised God in the midst of the storm. I praised God once more, for who he is! Not who Word Faith want him to be, merely an example of what they will one day be! But the living God!

People DIE all the time, from this heretical doctrine. Especially cancer! Because:
A. It does not work
B. It is not Biblical
C. It is a lie, and people become selfish and do not grow in integrity, godly character or righteousness. They forget about sin. They confuse the gospel, thinking it means healing, instead of redemption!
D. People focus on themselves, their faith, their beliefs, their abilities, their status as little gods, instead of focusing on who God is. The sovereign Lord of all creation. The Almighty! The Saviour!

The gospel is about God, not what you get out of it.

And, I am sick to death of hearing this garbage which is hermeneutically unsound. It twists and distorts the message of the Bible. It gives people false hope, in exchange for money. It preys upon people. If it was a solid Biblical doctrine, I would go my way. But I am not going to let one person believe this lie from the pit of hell!

Oh yes, I believe God can heal, when he wants. But God cannot be commanded, forced to heal, or made a servant.

Do not say I don't believe in healing. I do! What I do not believe is the lie that is Word Faith, which is based on lies and bad interpreting of the Bible. As well as seducing desperate people, with this lie.

You have believed a lie. Isa. 53:5d is not about physical healing. It is about healing of sin sick souls. It is a prophecy the Messiah will be born, and bring redemption to not only Abraham's children, but to Gentiles whom God calls.

There is no biblical basis for healing being part of the atonement. That is why this doctrine must be fought, because people are not healed, they are driven from God, they become bitter and angry, thinking God has abandoned them in their hour of greatest need.

There is no more evil and insidious doctrine, than one which promises much, and doesn't deliver in it! That is what Word Faith is. It tells people to lie to themselves, say that they are healed. In fact, from any viewpoint, lying about who or what you are, is ungodly. It is unethical.

Think about what you are saying!! You are saying, if you believe something that is not true, somehow it will magically become true, someday. Faith is not in your ability to completely believe a lie! That is a lack of integrity. Faith is about who God is, faith in God, not what you believe.

Angela,

Hi. I was praying tonight and you came to mind along with a true story from my past that I will share now.:

I once went to a chat room when I was feeling quite down. A pastor from another country ministered to my need before any conversation was joined between the two of us. We soon began conversation and gained mutual respect. However, we began to differ on two topics. First, whether I should move to that country to help with the ministry (I declined until/unless God specifically led me to do so).

The second , which was much greater and eventually quite a heated dispute, was over whether or not he needed a motorcycle(and other specific items) to be able to minister to more distant villages. I told him that all he really needed was Jesus, and being more specific, he needed to spend additional time in prayer/fasting/reading and that if he did so, drawing close to Jesus, getting more of Jesus, etc, God would provide for all his needs.

He kept arguing that I needed to more recognize his needs (and send him money). I kept arguing that I’m not his savior and he needed to more recognize his real savior & provider (Jesus).

This continued until I was thoroughly fed up. And having endured about as much as I cared to put up with, I concluded by telling him that I would indeed pray about his situation and that I would ask God to move one way or another (either to give him what he said he needed, or to shut him up) and that he’d better be ready because I expected God to move quickly...because I was torqued and was going to pray earnestly. Which thing I did.

A few days later, I was awakened from a nap by an email bleep from my new bank saying I’d been auto-entered into a drawing and had won $1,000 that would be dropped into my account if I simply replied saying “I accept”. I questioned the validity but read the details and replied “I accept. Thank you” and finished my nap. Once awake I checked my account and, as promised, the money was there.

Although surprised and pleased, I had no need or desire for the money and could think of nothing I wanted to apply it to. (How often does THAT happen?) So I began to pray about it, and guess who came to mind. So, once assured I was to pass it on, and after contacting the U.S. church that ordained my foreign friend, I donated it to their organization to be earmarked for his ministry.

So why would I tell you all of this in relation to this healing stuff?...Because of the question I had about how/why it happened this way...and God’s answer concerning it.

What was troubling me was “God, Why did you give the money to me instead of him when I was asking you to give to HIM if he really needed it?”

His answer (if you can receive it) was effectively “Because of his words. Pay attention to his words. His words were speaking lack and need into his life..so that’s what I could give him. Your words were about my faithfulness and ability to provide...so that’s what I could give you.” Then I understood that he was using me as a work-around in order to give the man what he needed but didn’t know how to effectively pray & receive.

BTW, please remember that several details were included…

1. Neither his nor my eternal salvation was ever in question.
2. Neither his nor my eternal salvation had any bearing on the outcome.
3. He was correct in saying he had need.
4. I was correct in saying God was quite able to provide through prayer.
5. Although God was both willing and able, the man had an obstacle preventing God from answering him directly.

I’d like to say much more but will conclude with “God really does stand at the door and knock until someone figures out how to open the door”.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[Angela53510]

Angela,

Hi. I was praying tonight and you came to mind along with a true story from my past that I will share now.:

I once went to a chat room when I was feeling quite down. A pastor from another country ministered to my need before any conversation was joined between the two of us. We soon began conversation and gained mutual respect. However, we began to differ on two topics. First, whether I should move to that country to help with the ministry (I declined until/unless God specifically led me to do so).

The second , which was much greater and eventually quite a heated dispute, was over whether or not he needed a motorcycle(and other specific items) to be able to minister to more distant villages. I told him that all he really needed was Jesus, and being more specific, he needed to spend additional time in prayer/fasting/reading and that if he did so, drawing close to Jesus, getting more of Jesus, etc, God would provide for all his needs.

He kept arguing that I needed to more recognize his needs (and send him money). I kept arguing that I’m not his savior and he needed to more recognize his real savior & provider (Jesus).

This continued until I was thoroughly fed up. And having endured about as much as I cared to put up with, I concluded by telling him that I would indeed pray about his situation and that I would ask God to move one way or another (either to give him what he said he needed, or to shut him up) and that he’d better be ready because I expected God to move quickly...because I was torqued and was going to pray earnestly. Which thing I did.

A few days later, I was awakened from a nap by an email bleep from my new bank saying I’d been auto-entered into a drawing and had won $1,000 that would be dropped into my account if I simply replied saying “I accept”. I questioned the validity but read the details and replied “I accept. Thank you” and finished my nap. Once awake I checked my account and, as promised, the money was there.

Although surprised and pleased, I had no need or desire for the money and could think of nothing I wanted to apply it to. (How often does THAT happen?) So I began to pray about it, and guess who came to mind. So, once assured I was to pass it on, and after contacting the U.S. church that ordained my foreign friend, I donated it to their organization to be earmarked for his ministry.

So why would I tell you all of this in relation to this healing stuff?...Because of the question I had about how/why it happened this way...and God’s answer concerning it.

What was troubling me was “God, Why did you give the money to me instead of him when I was asking you to give to HIM if he really needed it?”

His answer (if you can receive it) was effectively “Because of his words. Pay attention to his words. His words were speaking lack and need into his life..so that’s what I could give him. Your words were about my faithfulness and ability to provide...so that’s what I could give you.” Then I understood that he was using me as a work-around in order to give the man what he needed but didn’t know how to effectively pray & receive.

BTW, please remember that several details were included…

1. Neither his nor my eternal salvation was ever in question.
2. Neither his nor my eternal salvation had any bearing on the outcome.
3. He was correct in saying he had need.
4. I was correct in saying God was quite able to provide through prayer.
5. Although God was both willing and able, the man had an obstacle preventing God from answering him directly.

I’d like to say much more but will conclude with “God really does stand at the door and knock until someone figures out how to open the door”.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

More Word Faith nonsense, but this time, wealth. I could care less about your little experience. Show me in context, in the Bible that this doctrine is true! Because it is not. I believe, the Bible, not little stories and experiences!

Oh, strangely, my husband and I are quite well off. We don't pray for financial wealth. We have just always lived frugally, paid our debts, tithed and have given generously to our church, missions, orphanages, wells in Africa, that sort of thing. I'm reluctant to even mention this, because we never gave a penny of seed money, or to get 100 fold blessing, just because we felt led to by the Lord to give.

So, home, cars, motor home, sailboat paid for. And if God leads, we take money out of savings, and give it to those in need. No name it and claim it, just faithful obedience. Oh, neither of us ever had high paying jobs, we raised 4 children, who were involved in high level and expensive sports, music, and there was always money to do it!

I call that the Biblical way! Not waiting for some kind of coincidence to drop in your bank account.

Again, show me this in the Bible, or it is just more random chance. The more I hear these stories, I wonder why people don't read the whole Bible! Seriously!

 

[KelbyofGod]

More Word Faith nonsense, but this time, wealth. I could care less about your little experience. Show me in context, in the Bible that this doctrine is true! Because it is not. I believe, the Bible, not little stories and experiences!

Oh, strangely, my husband and I are quite well off. We don't pray for financial wealth. We have just always lived frugally, paid our debts, tithed and have given generously to our church, missions, orphanages, wells in Africa, that sort of thing. I'm reluctant to even mention this, because we never gave a penny of seed money, or to get 100 fold blessing, just because we felt led to by the Lord to give.

So, home, cars, motor home, sailboat paid for. And if God leads, we take money out of savings, and give it to those in need. No name it and claim it, just faithful obedience. Oh, neither of us ever had high paying jobs, we raised 4 children, who were involved in high level and expensive sports, music, and there was always money to do it!

I call that the Biblical way! Not waiting for some kind of coincidence to drop in your bank account.

Again, show me this in the Bible, or it is just more random chance. The more I hear these stories, I wonder why people don't read the whole Bible! Seriously!

Matthew 17:27 KJV
Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee.

 

[KelbyofGod]

More Word Faith nonsense, but this time, wealth. I could care less about your little experience. Show me in context, in the Bible that this doctrine is true! Because it is not. I believe, the Bible, not little stories and experiences!

Oh, strangely, my husband and I are quite well off. We don't pray for financial wealth. We have just always lived frugally, paid our debts, tithed and have given generously to our church, missions, orphanages, wells in Africa, that sort of thing. I'm reluctant to even mention this, because we never gave a penny of seed money, or to get 100 fold blessing, just because we felt led to by the Lord to give.

So, home, cars, motor home, sailboat paid for. And if God leads, we take money out of savings, and give it to those in need. No name it and claim it, just faithful obedience. Oh, neither of us ever had high paying jobs, we raised 4 children, who were involved in high level and expensive sports, music, and there was always money to do it!

I call that the Biblical way! Not waiting for some kind of coincidence to drop in your bank account.

Again, show me this in the Bible, or it is just more random chance. The more I hear these stories, I wonder why people don't read the whole Bible! Seriously!

BTW, I'm not defending Word of Faith as a doctrine or church. I see some serious flaws in what and how some of those things are being taught.

I'm just telling people that God still answers prayers.

As always, Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[Angela53510]

BTW, I'm not defending Word of Faith as a doctrine or church. I see some serious flaws in what and how some of those things are being taught.

I'm just telling people that God still answers prayers.

As always, Love in Jesus,
Kelby

I never said he didn't! I kept a prayer journal for 35 years, and go back and write all the answers to prayers, 95% were answered! I prayed for my dad to know Christ. 31 years later, 5 months before he died, God saved him! He was so changed! That was 2011. My dad told my sister about Jesus, I prayed and witnessed to her from the day I was saved.

But no! She didn't get saved. Then, she sent me an email before Christmas telling me about her Baptist church! Say what?? I have encouraged her, but she found her own church, reads he Bible daily. Another answer to prayer! And to tell you the truth, I gave up on her at the end. I felt her heart was hardened. I argued with God, said there were other needs to prayer for! And yet, God honoured not just my prayers, but the prayers of our grandmother, and my father's for the short time home was saved!

What I do not approve of, is name it and claim it, overruling God, or other false Word Faith doctrines, which are discouraging to other believers. They are not based on the Bible!

But just because Word Faith talks about answered prayer, doesn't mean God only answers their prayers, or that their faith is better than everyone else.

God is a prayer answering God. But, not because someone demands or claims it!

 

[Guojing]

His answer (if you can receive it) was effectively “Because of his words. Pay attention to his words. His words were speaking lack and need into his life..so that’s what I could give him. Your words were about my faithfulness and ability to provide...so that’s what I could give you.” Then I understood that he was using me as a work-around in order to give the man what he needed but didn’t know how to effectively pray & receive.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

Amen, the words we speak out of our mouth has more power than we imagine.

Matt12: 35 (KJV) A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Psalms 34:11 Come, ye children, hearken unto me: I will teach you the fear of the Lord.
12 What man is he that desireth life, and loveth many days, that he may see good?
13 Keep thy tongue from evil, and thy lips from speaking guile.

Mark 11:23
For assuredly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be removed and be cast into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that those things he says will be done, he will have whatever he says.

 

[Guojing]

Gasp!!! DON'T SAY THE "J" (Job) word!!

The blab it and grab it guys whistle right past that Book!

Seems Job is a very popular book used by people who believe that God use sickness to teach us lessons. Some comments on Job

1. Job is the oldest book in the Bible. It might be the oldest book in the world. It’s older than Genesis, though Genesis covers older material.
2. Job is set in the era of the patriarchs, but is in face an older book than Genesis. We know this because of the age of the Hebrew used. Languages evolve through time. Job was written in the time of the Patriarchs. Genesis was written, or compiled, by Moses, some 430+ years later!
3. Job had no covenant with God, no Abrahamic, no Mosaic, and most certainly no grace covenant that we have today. Thus, Job had no mediator between God and him and he certainly wished he had one. NASB quotes:“For [God] is not a man as I am that I may answer Him, that we may go to court together. There is no umpire between us, who may lay his hand upon us both.” – Job 9:32-33. We have Jesus as our mediator now, and he has wounded so that we can be healed.
4. Satan can no longer go to God in Heaven to accuse us before God. The place that he stood, at the time of Job, was legal because of Adam's sin. But when Jesus went to heaven after Crucifixion, he sprinkled that place with his own blood, rendering it holy. (Hebrews 9).

My conclusion? We had many things that Job wished he had, Jesus death on the cross changed the relationship between God and us. We can be confident that, under our grace covenant, God will not use Satan to create sickness in order to "build us" in any way.

 

[wolfwint]

Amen, the words we speak out of our mouth has more power than we imagine.

Matt12: 35 (KJV) A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Psalms 34:11 Come, ye children, hearken unto me: I will teach you the fear of the Lord.
12 What man is he that desireth life, and loveth many days, that he may see good?
13 Keep thy tongue from evil, and thy lips from speaking guile.

Mark 11:23
For assuredly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be removed and be cast into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that those things he says will be done, he will have whatever he says.

But, where is the proof for this today?
It seems to me many talking from the green table how it could be in theorie.
But cant show it in practice.

 

[Budman]

Amen, the words we speak out of our mouth has more power than we imagine.

Oh? Go to St. Jude's Hospital and speak all of those children with cancer to be instantly healed.

I'll wait.

 

[Guojing]

But, where is the proof for this today?
It seems to me many talking from the green table how it could be in theorie.
But cant show it in practice.

Scriptures are to be believed by faith. If you want to have proof, then obviously you don't want to believe it. Thus, it won't be true for you.

But that is not unusual, many people are not Christians because they don't want to believe by faith that Jesus came on this earth 2000 years ago, died and rose again on the 3rd day.

 

[Guojing]

Oh? Go to St. Jude's Hospital and speak all of those children with cancer to be instantly healed.

I'll wait.

I will wait for you to instead "Go to St. Jude's Hospital and speak all of those children with cancer to be instantly saved.

Tell me whether that will work.