Not By Works

[BillG]

I would at home yes. But I realize its not a good thing and i shouldnt. in all HONESTY

I wouldnt invite a non-christian to watch it with me, I would consider it a bad witness. ALTHOUGH: I have seen some non-christians in the gym with whom we've discussed these matters! So im a hypocrite in this particular answer!

Then you fall foul because in effect you consider it a sin, yet you watch it at home.
Why is it a sin not at home?

My friend, I'm not going at you.
I'm not trying to make you feel stupid.

All I'm trying to do is say not to be too rigid when it comes to outreach services.
Outreach services have a purpose, church services have a different purpose.

If outreach meeting brings one to faith, then they joint corporate worship services.

Yes I totally agree with outreach that a line should be drawn.

We have a guy over here called Stormsy.

A singer, I think the genre is called grime.

So he came on the scene a while back, his music played on the radio.
It started of as secular (I think)

Then all of sudden on the way into work they played his latest release.
Now I had never heard of him but when I listened to his song and others I was gobsmacked it was played in radio to about 10,000,000 people.

Before that his songs were played but not offensive per the grime genre.

Here it is

This song and a few since have been played on prime time radio.

Anyway brother.
As I said I'm not going at you.
I see your heart and love it.
I'm just expressing my heart.

 

[Hevosmies]

I did ask God. He said to assemble together and do things as the body. If we limit what the body can do. Then we are in prety big trouble. And we are leading towards being legalistic.


Your right, there is no debate. YOUR WRONG!

Do you seriously believe for even a second, that the Apostles in the book of Acts were going around attending Corinthian sports events or the olympics? Theater?
Church history should be studied........

The legalistic card cant be played either, by your standard, the apostles were the worst legalists on the planet. They lived separate lives dedicated to serving the Lord. They werent sitting around watching football eating potato chips like we are today listening to athletes say GAWD BLESS MURRICA while commiting adultery on their wives regularly. But hey its okay because John 3.16, he who is without sin cast the first stone right? Nobody is perfect right?. Thats that american bigmac weak Christianity, no wonder modern Christendom doesnt see Miracles like they did in the apostles' days. We're not living NEARLY as holy as we should. ( i said WE, including myself ).

Maybe we should stop all this worldly garbage and we would seee God's hand moving again and getting people to come to church without bells and whistles. Miracles left and right, real revival!

I have already seen "gospel from the stripper's pole" and no im not joking, its a real thing. Thats where its headed, whatever to get people in the church. (instead of going OUT to evangelize them like the bible teaches)

Teh more people we get in, the more people tithe, CUT THAT CHECK COUSIN! $$$$$$$

 

[GodsGrace101]

I have thought about this.

Here is what I believe, but im not dogmatic on it:

In the OT they were saved by Jesus' blood just like we are. The OT saints were saved by faith just like we are. It says the lamb of God slain from the FOUNDATION of the world, thats how I believe its possible for them to be saved by Jesus' blood too.

Another theory ive heard is that they went to Abraham's bosom in the OT after they died, and only went to heaven after Jesus resurrected and His blood was shed

I agree, on both counts.

People were saved by faith in the O.T. also.
Not everybody in the O.T. was lost....
They had faith in God Father because they didn't know Jesus...but....same thing, it's like you said.

And your second paragraph is not a theory...it's accepted biblical theology.
( re Abraham's Bossom)

 

[Hevosmies]

Wow. Talk about legalistic.. Some would call this pharisee type legalism. Don’t do this that or something else..

Here it is from the legalistic Bible:

Jas 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
1Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.


Throw out your Bible!

Thats literally MOST of what the Bible is: do this, dont do that. It says this over and over and over and over again. Love not the world, dont conform to it.

Do you think I WROTE THE BIBLE? If I would write the Bible I wouldnt include those verses. I would write "Do whatever you want as long as its not hurting anyone" Thats Hevosmies 1:1. ONLY ONE VERSE in my book.
Yet John and Paul and James had a different way of writing? Seems like they were legalists by your definition!

I am very interested to see: HOW do you manage to get away from these verses? The dispensational cop-out of "its not the paulien epistles" doesnt work since one of those verses is from Romans. The "its the OT" doesnt work either since its NT.

 

[BillG]

The Apostles didnt use worldly entertainment thats for sure.

They did miracles yes. BRing on the miracles! I got no issue.

And I agree, we shouldnt be watching boxing(which i like) or football, or any other worldly stuff like that. No benefit in that whatsoever.

Oh yes, bring on the miracles.
I'm so desperate to see this today.

With regards to your last paragraph I'm not so sure.
Yes the relaxation time in the day of Jesus is different from today.

I do think today it's gone too far.
As I said I love my football.
I had professional contract on the table.
Then I busted my ACL. Contract withdrawn.

It wasn't megga money.
But being paid for a job I loved.

I hardly watch footy any more.
My contract papers 31 years ago was about 20k a year plus bonuses.
Today it's 20k a week plus everything else.

The world has lost the plot

 

[UnderGrace]

Do you seriously believe for even a second, that the Apostles in the book of Acts were going around attending Corinthian sports events or the olympics? Theater?
Church history should be studied........

The legalistic card cant be played either, by your standard, the apostles were the worst legalists on the planet. They lived separate lives dedicated to serving the Lord. They werent sitting around watching football eating potato chips like we are today listening to athletes say GAWD BLESS MURRICA while commiting adultery on their wives regularly. But hey its okay because John 3.16, he who is without sin cast the first stone right? Nobody is perfect right?. Thats that american bigmac weak Christianity, no wonder modern Christendom doesnt see Miracles like they did in the apostles' days. We're not living NEARLY as holy as we should. ( i said WE, including myself ).

Maybe we should stop all this worldly garbage and we would seee God's hand moving again and getting people to come to church without bells and whistles. Miracles left and right, real revival!

I have already seen "gospel from the stripper's pole" and no im not joking, its a real thing. Thats where its headed, whatever to get people in the church. (instead of going OUT to evangelize them like the bible teaches)

Teh more people we get in, the more people tithe, CUT THAT CHECK COUSIN! $$$$$$$

Legalism applies to salvation, we are indeed under grace, however once we are saved we called to be a witness, salt and light to the world.

We must always be aware of our witness and our testimony in how we behave because we reflect the image of Christ Jesus.

We must be credible to the world, the modern day church has lost a lot of credibility sadly.

 

[UnderGrace]

Jas 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
1Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

This is not legalism, this bearing witness to the world who we are in Christ.

This is our calling and should become our desire as we abide in Him.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Do you seriously believe for even a second, that the Apostles in the book of Acts were going around attending Corinthian sports events or the olympics? Theater?
Church history should be studied........

The legalistic card cant be played either, by your standard, the apostles were the worst legalists on the planet. They lived separate lives dedicated to serving the Lord. They werent sitting around watching football eating potato chips like we are today listening to athletes say GAWD BLESS MURRICA while commiting adultery on their wives regularly. But hey its okay because John 3.16, he who is without sin cast the first stone right? Nobody is perfect right?. Thats that american bigmac weak Christianity, no wonder modern Christendom doesnt see Miracles like they did in the apostles' days. We're not living NEARLY as holy as we should. ( i said WE, including myself ).

Maybe we should stop all this worldly garbage and we would seee God's hand moving again and getting people to come to church without bells and whistles. Miracles left and right, real revival!

I have already seen "gospel from the stripper's pole" and no im not joking, its a real thing. Thats where its headed, whatever to get people in the church. (instead of going OUT to evangelize them like the bible teaches)

Teh more people we get in, the more people tithe, CUT THAT CHECK COUSIN! $$$$$$$

Lol

I have been in your world

I saw a dead church which never went anywhere

And ps. We do not demand tithing. We do not even asks guests to give, We only teach on giving once a year (when we ask people to pledge for the year) Our pastors do not drive expensive cares (even new cars. They drive cars that are older and paid for) they do not wear expensive clothing, They bought their own homes, and ask for nothing from the church. Yet we have enough money to spend millions on world outreach, and help when catastophies all around the world happen We support multiple missionaries, and local churches all over the world. We have learned, If you do Gods will. He will supply your need. No need to demand anything, Just do. And God will supply.

I have seen God move in peoples lives like I have never seen before. I have seen drug addicts healed. And go out praising God. I have seen people healed of sexual sin. I have seen proud people who only cared about money, Turn around and instead of trying to gain riches, Give and give and give. I have seen youth ministries flourish, and people who live in inner cities with no hope. Be given hope and go home to give their parents hope.

My church started as a college ministry almost 30 years ago. That home bible study has grown into a large church which plants church over seas, here in my city, and other cities all over the country. We have churches coming to us to see what makes us so succesful because we are not afraid to go out and win the lost. And focus on true discipleship. The way the church is supposed to do.

Like Bill said, Not saying this to attack or belittle you. But just saying before you go attacking things, it would be best to see what it is you are attacking.

If God can make a donkey talk. He can make a church thrive.. and he does nto have to stick to tradition to do it

 

[GodsGrace101]

My humble opinion:

The reason the Church was ballin in the past was because of the no compromise attitude. NOT AN INCH GIVEN. Yet in the 60s slow and steady the churches started 'modernizing' and tailoring a message for 'todays people' a.k.a conforming to the world! What we have today is the result of that. Fast forward to 2018 and we got a naked cowboy playing guitar in church, churches 'rocking out' to ACDC highway to hell (how fitting) and to top it all off: Justin Bieber in a bar with his fake pastor acting like a married couple!

Oy vey!

Its time to rewind the clock and I believe we can turn this ship around, UNLESS the Lord comes back before that, obviously. IM READY TO GO. I got nothing that special planned.

Here is how I would organize the real rewind of churches:

-CANCEL all the 'modernizing' programs tailoring services for lost people and 'modern mankind'
-START preaching the Bible again, not cool stories about how great we are and how much of a plan God has for us, but BIBLE!
-Bring back the repentance message.
-Kick out all fake secular pastors with thd's and phd's but NO SPIRIT OF GOD. There was a poll where some ministers were even atheist
-Do an INTRODUCTION to the faith 101 for newly saved people where you go through the basics. This is one idea we should take from the catholics, they got the RCIA classes for new people joining!
-Start preaching on hell again
-Go back to the hymns in church, secular worldly music CANCELED.
-Start talking, acting, looking and dressing DIFFERENT from the world, instead of fitting in with every trend and trying to blend in, be ye seperate! This is a much better witness and will in fact WIN people to Christ. I know people from the streets, they arent fooled by some pastor wearing eyeliner and trying to talk hip and cool.
-BAPTIZE PEOPLE IMMEDIATELY, big one, thats how I operate!. This gets rid of the useless baptism debate we have going on. Its biblical
-Bring back LOCAL NEW TESTAMENT CHURCHES, not massive organizations with centralized power, but indepedent churches with ELDERS leading the church. As God intended.

Thats a start. I got a ton more but i figure nobody is going to read a message this long anyway, haha! Im a man of ideas! This is just my view.

If you don't get a bunch of "awards" for this post....there's something truly wrong with Christianity today.

I wish you could rule and get things straight.
We're in a mess right now, and I couldn't agree with you more.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Legalism applies to salvation, we are indeed under grace, however once we are saved we called to be a witness, salt and light to the world.

We must always be aware of our witness and our testimony in how we behave because we reflect the image of Christ Jesus.

We must be credible to the world, the modern day church has lost a lot of credibility sadly.

As much as I agree with you.... I can't say it is anything less the hypocritical to enjoy something at home, which you feel convicted to do in a gathering...

sounds like double mindedness to me

Here it is from the legalistic Bible:

Jas 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
1Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.


Throw out your Bible!

Thats literally MOST of what the Bible is: do this, dont do that. It says this over and over and over and over again. Love not the world, dont conform to it.

Do you think I WROTE THE BIBLE? If I would write the Bible I wouldnt include those verses. I would write "Do whatever you want as long as its not hurting anyone" Thats Hevosmies 1:1. ONLY ONE VERSE in my book.
Yet John and Paul and James had a different way of writing? Seems like they were legalists by your definition!

I am very interested to see: HOW do you manage to get away from these verses? The dispensational cop-out of "its not the paulien epistles" doesnt work since one of those verses is from Romans. The "its the OT" doesnt work either since its NT.

Haha! No worries.

I do box yes i have since I can remember. Two hobbies I love is boxing and horses!

those verses do not only apply to when youre in church brother

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Here it is from the legalistic Bible:

Jas 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
1Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.


Throw out your Bible!

Thats literally MOST of what the Bible is: do this, dont do that. It says this over and over and over and over again. Love not the world, dont conform to it.

Do you think I WROTE THE BIBLE? If I would write the Bible I wouldnt include those verses. I would write "Do whatever you want as long as its not hurting anyone" Thats Hevosmies 1:1. ONLY ONE VERSE in my book.
Yet John and Paul and James had a different way of writing? Seems like they were legalists by your definition!

I am very interested to see: HOW do you manage to get away from these verses? The dispensational cop-out of "its not the paulien epistles" doesnt work since one of those verses is from Romans. The "its the OT" doesnt work either since its NT.

Get away from them? I thought God told us to go into the world. And baptise nations. Not alienate ourselves from them..

Football is not of the world. If you think this, I feel very sorry for you and your churhc, you must be very boring people

Paul tells us what the world is, It is full of sin, Selfish, And usong people.

Sorry, But before you continue judging people. You need to take that plank out of your eye. And learn what real sin is. God did not tell people they were not allowed to go have fun, Quite the opposite.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

As much as I agree with you.... I can't say it is anything less the hypocritical to enjoy something at home, which you feel convicted to do in a gathering...

sounds like double mindedness to me




those verses do not only apply to when youre in church brother

I think you cross the line comparing an annual or occasional broadcast of a sport

to "gospel from a stripping pole"

EG clearly said (as will as bill)

this is not a common church practice

but a rare encouragement to spend more time in fellowship

(though i believe it is wise to be careful of lines that should not be crossed and there is nothing wrong with you not liking this thing... and i agree that most modern day churches often lose most credibility in their efforts to "bend" for the world)

 

[UnderGrace]

As much as I agree with you.... I can't say it is anything less the hypocritical to enjoy something at home, which you feel convicted to do in a gathering...

sounds like double mindedness to me




those verses do not only apply to when youre in church brother

Yes I would agree, I took it more in this way, I would enjoy a glass of wine at home with a meal but I would not go to a bar to drink wine.

I do not see that as being hypocritical because I do not lie about the fact that I will have wine with a meal at home.

This is a bit of a slice and dice problem that goes nowhere.

I think the bigger and better question is what is the biblical way for a church to function in a post modern society?

 

[Hevosmies]

Get away from them? I thought God told us to go into the world. And baptise nations. Not alienate ourselves from them..

Football is not of the world. If you think this, I feel very sorry for you and your churhc, you must be very boring people

Paul tells us what the world is, It is full of sin, Selfish, And usong people.

Sorry, But before you continue judging people. You need to take that plank out of your eye. And learn what real sin is. God did not tell people they were not allowed to go have fun, Quite the opposite.

What is the world? Does the bible have a definition of it? Where does Paul tell us what the world is? I want to see that verse and im dead serious. Do you think i like to believe as I do? I just try to be honest with the Bible.

1John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.


Sounds to me like fun is very much forbidden actually! Most of the stuff I would consider fun = sin in the bible. Things like: Fornication(this should be bolded), running my mouth with the homies talking trash, hip hop music, playing cards etc. <- All SINFUL, yet fun. I realize whats fun to everyone is different though.

The Bible says there is a pleasure in sin for a season. That season ends when we draw our last breath!

 

[dcontroversal]

Without the work on the Cross done by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, there would be no salvation for anyone

Exactly....and it states clearly we are kept by HIS POWER through FAITH....the FAITH HE BEGINS, FINISHES AND COMPLETES.......to say We must keep ourself in the faith is a flat lie and denies the truth of being kept by HIS POWER......it does not say OUR POWER TO DO......

 

[UnderGrace]

Bring back LOCAL NEW TESTAMENT CHURCHES, not massive organizations with centralized power, but indepedent churches with ELDERS leading the church. As God intended.

Soon the believers will be underground ....but this is the best solution.

 

[dcontroversal]

hahaha

oldie but a goodie
😉

Amen......many good ones in this thread

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Legalism applies to salvation, we are indeed under grace, however once we are saved we called to be a witness, salt and light to the world.

We must always be aware of our witness and our testimony in how we behave because we reflect the image of Christ Jesus.

We must be credible to the world, the modern day church has lost a lot of credibility sadly.

Legalism can be applied to everyday living also. Legalsim in the world keeps people from being saved. Legalism in Gods body leads to people being held back. And Can be used by satan to take people out of being fruitful for God.

 

[Argueless]

This verse, along with Romans 1:5 is often cited and misinterpreted by works-salvationists in order to teach salvation by faith + obedience/works. Although Paul can speak of people’s initial response of choosing to believe the gospel as an act of obedience, in which he describes it as "obeying the gospel" (Romans 10:16; 1:16), the purpose of Paul’s apostleship was not merely to bring people to conversion but also to bring about transformed lives that were obedient to God.

*Notice that Paul said they HAVE (already) received grace and apostleship FOR/UNTO obedience to the faith. Just as in Ephesians 2:10, Paul said that we are created in Christ Jesus FOR/UNTO good works. We are clearly saved FOR good works, NOT BY good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). Paul did not say that they did not receive grace and apostleship until they produced obedience afterwards. We have access by faith into grace.. Romans 5:2 not faith "and obedience/works." We are saved through faith in Christ first, then "UNTO" obedience/works.

Typical straw man argument.

I feel sad for a multitude of "nominal" Christians in various false religions and cults who were taught and have embraced a perverted gospel of works-salvation (Galatians 1:6-9; 2 Corinthians 4:3,4) and refuse to repent and BELIEVE the gospel. (Romans 1:16)

I'm yet to hear genuine born again Christians say that authentic obedience is a bad thing. Expecting to be saved based on the merits of obedience/works (salvation by works) is a bad thing. Obedience which flows from a regenerate heart in the power of the Holy Spirit out of gratitude and love for the Lord is not a bad thing.

It will be too late for works-salvationists before Him on Judgment Day (Matthew 7:22-23).

We can see and identify from these discussions who are the servants of God and who are not...who are righteous and who are wicked.

Jesus told His disciples to preach the Gospel unto all nations and teach them to OBEY HIS COMMANDMENTS. (Matthew 28:18-20)

Now those who adhere to the Lord's instructions are called "IDIOTIC", WORKS SALVATIONISTS, SINLESS PERFECTIONISTS, SALVATION LOSERS ETC. Insulting and mocking the idea of OBEDIENCE TO GOD as PART OF SALVATION. (See Hebrews 5:7-9)

They are calling evil GOOD and good EVIL. (Isaiah 5:20-24)

What is NOTICEABLE is how this people PROUDLY and CONTINUOUSLY calling themselves "SINNERS" even after claiming at the same time that they were BORN AGAIN of incorruptible seed.

(A double personality suffering from SCHIZOPHRENIA who love to DOUBLE TALK.)

I am not insulting or mocking anyone but just EXPOSING them to lead them to godly sorrow and somehow REPENT.

...When I say to a wicked man, ‘YOU WILL SURELY DIE,’ and you do not warn him or speak out to DISSUADE HIM FROM HIS EVIL WAYS in order TO SAVE HIS LIFE, that wicked man will die for his sin, and I will hold you ACCOUNTABLE for his blood. But if you do warn the wicked man and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his evil ways, he will die for his sin; but you will have saved yourself. “Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before him, he will die. Since you did not warn him, he will die for his sin. The righteous things he did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. But if you do WARN the righteous man not to sin and he does not sin, HE WILL SURELY LIVE because HE TOOK WARNING, and you will have saved yourself.” Ezekiel 3:18-21

... “Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be SHAMEFULLY EXPOSED.” Revelation 16:15

...“YOU HAVE SAID HARSH THINGS AGAINST ME,” says the Lord. “Yet you ask, ‘What have we said against you?’ “You have said, ‘IT IS FUTILE TO SERVE GOD. What did we gain by CARRYING OUT HIS REQUIREMENTS and going about like mourners before the Lord Almighty? But now we call the arrogant blessed. Certainly the evildoers prosper, and even those who challenge God escape.’” Then those who feared the Lord talked with each other, and the Lord listened and heard. A scroll of remembrance was written in his presence concerning those who feared the Lord and honored his name. “THEY WILL BE MINE,” says the Lord Almighty, “in the day when I make up my treasured possession. I WILL SPARE THEM, just as in compassion a man spares his son who serves him. And you will again see the distinction between THE RIGHTEOUS and THE WICKED, between THOSE WHO SERVE God and THOSE WHO DO NOT. Malachi 3:13-18

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Yes I would agree, I took it more in this way, I would enjoy a glass of wine at home with a meal but I would not go to a bar to drink wine.

I do not see that as being hypocritical because I do not lie about the fact that I will have wine with a meal at home.

This is a bit of a slice and dice problem that goes nowhere.

I think the bigger and better question is what is the biblical way for a church to function in a post modern society?

I would say first and most importantly the true message of the gospel needs to be taught.

The leaders of this congregation ought to be elders... not only in age but people more experienced in their walk than I am.... called to teach...

... you ask a great question sis

which brother hevo answered in his own way from his heart in much more detail than i have here...

honestly I am not sure I am mature enough to know all the ins and outs of which functions should be forbidden in our gatherings short of what is obviously against Gods will or what The Holy Spirit convicts us of...

my main goal in most of my fellowship is to examine the teachings of my elders according to scripture

and maybe be of use to some of my brothers and sisters....

we ARE the church... and I just dont want to be the foot that fell asleep😅