Not By Works

[BillG]

churches showed FOOTBALL in the church

Our church sometimes broadcast football matches.
Mainly big games like the world cup.
We have quite an attendance of non believers.
Why would you think that wrong?

I know you love your boxing.
Would you say it's wrong to show a big boxing bout in a church?

Where I live, even though affluent area there a lot homeless people.
Most on alcohol and drugs. Broken hurt people.

My heart is for such people, not just the homeless but also who struggle with such things. And yes even belivers struggle with such things.

So when I'm walking down our high street and I see such people.
I sit and talk with them, get to know them.
I invite them to our church.
It's interesting to hear certain responses.
From "I went to church once, walked in looking for help and was made to feel worthless, told to clean up my act, people avoided me because I stunk of booze or BO.

I could tell many more responses.

I tell them come to our church, I sit at the back and I will sit with you.
"But you will reject me if I'm half cut or need to go out to top up or have a smoke"

I find that heartbreaking.
I reassure them that I won't.

As a result we have had people come to our church and have come to faith and been set free and now outreach to people who used to be on their patch.
They remember what they were, realise what they are now and seek the lost like they were.

If I was asked to put a % of people I have done this with who came to church it would be very small.

But I don't care it's small.
If I spoke to 1,000 people and only one responded then thank God.
Because that one person will seek out their fellow homeless people, they see the change, they then want it, then they when come to faith do the same.
And then we have the snowball affect.

Before I'm jumped on for posting what I do as I have said the above many times and being accused of being self righteous, boasting and proud and so on.

I want to say I AM NOT.

I love people, I love the broken hearted.
The broken hearted will walk in ways that we know is not right.
Not just alcoholism and drug addiction.
What about shopping therapy, makeup, perfume.
All the things that the world throws at us that says do this, buy this and you will be loved.
Such things only replace the hurt and pain, escape from the reality of their lives.

We know diffetent.

We need to go out to the highways and byways.

Sorry gone off on a tangent.
We were talking about football.

But this is my heart.

 

[Hevosmies]

I know you love your boxing.
Would you say it's wrong to show a big boxing bout in a church?

You are right I love boxing. And I would agree, even though I love it, it is WRONG to show it in church!
Its supposed to be a place where all the focus is on God! Not some sweaty guys battling in the ring! Thats worldly entertainment and with the way the ringgals are dressing these days, oy vey!

I am not going to lie to myself and think that boxing is somehow positive influence for me (or anyone else) to watch. CALL ME CRAZY, that I am!

 

[BillG]

You are right I love boxing. And I would agree, even though I love it, it is WRONG to show it in church!
Its supposed to be a place where all the focus is on God! Not some sweaty guys battling in the ring! Thats worldly entertainment and borderline sin with the way the ringgals are dressing these days!

I am not going to lie to myself and think that boxing is somehow positive influence for me (or anyone else) to watch. CALL ME CRAZY, that I am!

Would you watch boxing at home?
Would you invite a non Christian friend who loved boxing but could not at home to come to your place?

 

[Hevosmies]

Would you watch boxing at home?
Would you invite a non Christian friend who loved boxing but could not at home to come to your place?

I would at home yes. But I realize its not a good thing and i shouldnt. in all HONESTY

I wouldnt invite a non-christian to watch it with me, I would consider it a bad witness. ALTHOUGH: I have seen some non-christians in the gym with whom we've discussed these matters! So im a hypocrite in this particular answer!

 

[calibob]

Our church sometimes broadcast football matches.
Mainly big games like the world cup.
We have quite an attendance of non believers.
Why would you think that wrong?

I know you love your boxing.
Would you say it's wrong to show a big boxing bout in a church?

Where I live, even though affluent area there a lot homeless people.
Most on alcohol and drugs. Broken hurt people.

My heart is for such people, not just the homeless but also who struggle with such things. And yes even belivers struggle with such things.

So when I'm walking down our high street and I see such people.
I sit and talk with them, get to know them.
I invite them to our church.
It's interesting to hear certain responses.
From "I went to church once, walked in looking for help and was made to feel worthless, told to clean up my act, people avoided me because I stunk of booze or BO.

I could tell many more responses.

I tell them come to our church, I sit at the back and I will sit with you.
"But you will reject me if I'm half cut or need to go out to top up or have a smoke"

I find that heartbreaking.
I reassure them that I won't.

As a result we have had people come to our church and have come to faith and been set free and now outreach to people who used to be on their patch.
They remember what they were, realise what they are now and seek the lost like they were.

If I was asked to put a % of people I have done this with who came to church it would be very small.

But I don't care it's small.
If I spoke to 1,000 people and only one responded then thank God.
Because that one person will seek out their fellow homeless people, they see the change, they then want it, then they when come to faith do the same.
And then we have the snowball affect.

Before I'm jumped on for posting what I do as I have said the above many times and being accused of being self righteous, boasting and proud and so on.

I want to say I AM NOT.

I love people, I love the broken hearted.
The broken hearted will walk in ways that we know is not right.
Not just alcoholism and drug addiction.
What about shopping therapy, makeup, perfume.
All the things that the world throws at us that says do this, buy this and you will be loved.
Such things only replace the hurt and pain, escape from the reality of their lives.

We know diffetent.

We need to go out to the highways and byways.

Sorry gone off on a tangent.
We were talking about football.

But this is my heart.

I would rather watch cartoons.

 

[BillG]

Ask God. Imo if people dont fellowship without a football game something is wrong lol. Do you think the Apostles had to do a play or bring out the tricks and ponies or some gimmicks to get people in?

This is a second witness to this happening on this forum! Lets stop giving this a pass. If you wanna watch football STAY HOME! Watch it on your free time!
Thats my humble yet CORRECT opinion.

No room for debate!

Don't be rigid here.
What did the Apostles do to bring people in?
It wasn't just preaching.
It was backed up with miracles.

Please differentiate between an outreach service when it comes to something like football and a gathering of fellow believers who come together to worship God.

If you think it's a sin for an outreach to put on a football match, then watching football is a sin and we should not be watching it in our own time either.

However if an outreach is to watch football and ask non believers to come along its not corporate worship and it's our free time.

 

[BillG]

I would rather watch cartoons.

Which ones?

 

[UnderGrace]

Ask God. Imo if people dont fellowship without a football game something is wrong lol. Do you think the Apostles had to do a play or bring out the tricks and ponies or some gimmicks to get people in?

This is a second witness to this happening on this forum! Lets stop giving this a pass. If you wanna watch football STAY HOME! Watch it on your free time!
Thats my humble yet CORRECT opinion.

No room for debate!

I would agree, scripture teaches that the church is the assembly of believers, so many now are based on the "seeker sensitive" movement.

Evangelism for the most part is for when we are out in the world.

One church I went to showed a clip from the Lord of the Rings to start his sermon, Why?

 

[calibob]

Which ones?

Black and white Popeyes'. At least he had a good reason to fight!

 

[VCO]

Perfect in Christ - greek - teleion - meaning perfect

what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will. rom 12:2

but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 1 Cor 13:10

and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Eph 4:13

everyone perfect in Christ Col 1:28

Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. James 1:4

Every good and perfect gift is from above James 1:17

who looks intently into the perfect law James 1:25

The translators are embarrassed. How could Paul and James be saying we would be perfect.
No they must mean mature, except the greek word is perfect.
. . . .

THE HARDEST THING FOR AN ENGLISH SPEAKER TO REALIZE, ESPECIALLY FOR A KJV ONLY BELIEVER, IS THAT ENGLISH IS ACTUALLY A VERY POOR LANGUAGE TO TRANSLATE THE BIBLE INTO. The ORIGINAL LANGUAGES WERE FAR BETTER AT GIVING YOU THE EXACT MEANING. In Greek you have 6 primary verb tenses, and we only have 3 primary verb tenses, therefore WE CAN SUFFER the loss of it's original INTENT of the VERBS. BESIDES all of that, there are MAJOR differences in the LANGUAGE MEANINGS IT SELF, therefore our Translators had the handicap of using a LANGUAGE that does not have the PERFECT Meaning for the WORD in question, and there for they had to settle on the closest word with a similar meaning. NOW IF YOU ARE A KJV ONLY PERSON, you need to know, the KJV was not a TRANSLATION but rather just a Paraphrase uses 8 older ENGLISH translations, and comparing it to the Latin Bible and the Septuagint. HOW DO I KNOW IT WAS A PARAPHRASE AND NOT AN ACTUAL TRANSLATION? The original Translation Team ADMITTED IT.

Original Preface of the 1611 KJV

You really NEED to READ the Original Preface of the 1611 KJV, they admitted that they paraphrased lots of it from earlier English Versions. I think you will find you have put the KJV on WAY TOO HIGH OF A PEDISTAL. Here, I have pulled some excerpts out for you:

(and Saint Jerome affirmeth as much) that the Seventie were Interpreters, they were not Prophets; they did many things well, as learned men; but yet as men they stumbled and fell, one while through oversight, another while through ignorance, yea, sometimes they may be noted to adde to the Originall, and sometimes to take from it;​

. . .​

Yet for all that, as nothing is begun and perfited at the same time, and the later thoughts are thought to be the wiser: so, if we building upon their foundation that went before us, and being holpen by their labours, doe endevour to make that better which they left so good;​

. . .

being rubbed and polished; also if any thing be halting, or superfluous, or not so agreeable to the originall, the same may bee corrected, and the trueth set in place. . .​

. . . . .
Now to the later we answere; that wee doe not deny, nay wee affirme and avow, that the very meanest [poorest] translation of the Bible in English, set foorth by men of our profession (for wee have seene none of theirs of the whole Bible as yet) containeth the word of God, nay, is the word of God. . . .​

. . .

Truly (good Christian Reader) wee never thought from the beginning, that we should neede to make a new Translation, nor yet to make of a bad one a good one, . . . but to make a good one better, or out of many good ones, one principall good one, not justly to be excepted against; that hath bene our indeavour, that our marke. . . .


https://library.osu.edu/innovation-projects/omeka/exhibits/show/the-king-james-bible/sidebars/the-translators-preface-to-the
{ That makes it a PARAPHRASE and not an actual Translation from the original languages. }

 

[Hevosmies]

Don't be rigid here.
What did the Apostles do to bring people in?
It wasn't just preaching.
It was backed up with miracles.

Please differentiate between an outreach service when it comes to something like football and a gathering of fellow believers who come together to worship God.

If you think it's a sin for an outreach to put on a football match, then watching football is a sin and we should not be watching it in our own time either.

However if an outreach is to watch football and ask non believers to come along its not corporate worship and it's our free time.

The Apostles didnt use worldly entertainment thats for sure.

They did miracles yes. BRing on the miracles! I got no issue.

And I agree, we shouldnt be watching boxing(which i like) or football, or any other worldly stuff like that. No benefit in that whatsoever.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ask God. Imo if people dont fellowship without a football game something is wrong lol. Do you think the Apostles had to do a play or bring out the tricks and ponies or some gimmicks to get people in?

I did ask God. He said to assemble together and do things as the body. If we limit what the body can do. Then we are in prety big trouble. And we are leading towards being legalistic.

This is a second witness to this happening on this forum! Lets stop giving this a pass. If you wanna watch football STAY HOME! Watch it on your free time!
Thats my humble yet CORRECT opinion.

So I should stay isolated at home, and not make a way for a bunch of my brothers and sisters who WANT TO WATCH THE GAME ANYWAY and FELLOWSHIP TOGETHER. As God wants us to do.

No. Your wrong, Jesus ate with sinners How is that any different than a bunch of people fellowshipping together to do things they all love to do? Not to mention a great way to bring other people to church and expose them to the word.

No room for debate!

Your right, there is no debate. YOUR WRONG!

Church is not what you think it is, It is a gathering together, This “house of God” where we all play church is not what the NT church was, It does not even closely resemble the NT church, Eventually the traditional church will wake up and realise this, Its why your losing so many members, Instead of being like paul and being ALL things to ALL people. Your trying to force people to be like you

How does that differ from what they jews did?

 

[NoNameMcgee]

If I will judge a congregation it will be over the message.....

I do not drink even for the taste... I know wine is different now than it used to be

but if Jesus can sit and eat and drink with sinners in order to plant seeds of truth

an annual football game or an eat out to encourage more heads to hear the GOOD NEWS does not make a bad church
.....


though UG makes a decent point about dividing worship from evangelism... I also know I worship every day... not only in church

and I wish to share the gospel.... not only when that is my main purpose for going somewhere....

(guess I more agree with brother bill)

anyways

love you all the same

God bless

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Would you watch boxing at home?
Would you invite a non Christian friend who loved boxing but could not at home to come to your place?

The thought that we have to be different at a building than we are in our lives has led to so much hypocracy and one of the reasons the world hates the church..

its one thing they hate God, but to feed their hate by being that way, is just wrong.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Don't be rigid here.
What did the Apostles do to bring people in?
It wasn't just preaching.
It was backed up with miracles.

Please differentiate between an outreach service when it comes to something like football and a gathering of fellow believers who come together to worship God.

If you think it's a sin for an outreach to put on a football match, then watching football is a sin and we should not be watching it in our own time either.

However if an outreach is to watch football and ask non believers to come along its not corporate worship and it's our free time.

Amen,
it is not like we are bringing sin (gambling) in the church
We are doing things we do in our every day lives. and it is a great outreach.. And fellowship builder (we get to know our brothers and sisters we not normally see or get to know had we not done this)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I would agree, scripture teaches that the church is the assembly of believers, so many now are based on the "seeker sensitive" movement.

Evangelism for the most part is for when we are out in the world.

One church I went to showed a clip from the Lord of the Rings to start his sermon, Why?

Maybe the pastor had something that EVERYONE could relate to. In order to make a point.

Why limit a pastor and what he can do?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The Apostles didnt use worldly entertainment thats for sure.

You know this how?

Paul had to get on people because when they met, some were drinking so much alcohol they were getting drunk.

Do you allow alcohol in your church?

They did miracles yes. BRing on the miracles! I got no issue.

Oh they did much more than this. In pauls later ministries you never even heard of miracles. Most of them were in the beginning..

And I agree, we shouldnt be watching boxing(which i like) or football, or any other worldly stuff like that. No benefit in that whatsoever.

Wow. Talk about legalistic.. Some would call this pharisee type legalism. Don’t do this that or something else..

 

[VCO]

Perfect in Christ - greek - teleion - meaning perfect

what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will. rom 12:2

but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 1 Cor 13:10

and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Eph 4:13

everyone perfect in Christ Col 1:28

Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. James 1:4

Every good and perfect gift is from above James 1:17

who looks intently into the perfect law James 1:25

The translators are embarrassed. How could Paul and James be saying we would be perfect.
No they must mean mature, except the greek word is perfect.
. . . .

Here are the GREEK TENSES in case you doubt there are 6 verb tenses that give a slightly different meaning to the verb, depending which tense you use:


TENSE
Tense plays a very crucial role in the study of New Testament exegesis. Dana and Mantey understood its significance in saying that "no element of the Greek language is of more importance to the student of the New Testament than the matter of tense". [1] Tense deals both with time and kind of action. Ancient Greek focused more on the latter of these aspects (that is, kind of action); however, time does play a role in verb tense when the mood is indicative (the four moods are explained below).

The aspect of a verb correlates with the kind of action. It determines whether the verb's action is punctiliar, linear or perfected. These are described in the following table.


1. The Present Tense
The present tense can either be continuous/ongoing or undefined. The continuous present is usually translated as "I am loosing" while the undefined is best translated as "I loosen." When the present is used with the indicative mood it denotes present time.

Example: Rev 3:20

Behold, I stand at the door and knock.

2. The Imperfect Tense
The action of the imperfect tense is very similar to that of the present tense. It represents continuous or reoccuring action in the past time (when used with the indicative). This is best translated as "I was loosing."

Example: Mar 4:33

And with many such parables He was speaking the word to them

3. The Aorist Tense
This tense is hardly a tense at all. It describes indefinite or undefined action. The word aoristos derives from an alpha privative (ie. negation) and the verb horizô (meaning "to bound") thus meaning "without boundaries". [2] With the indicative mood it is often best translated as a simple past: "I loosed."

Example: Jhn 3:16

For God so loved the world

4. The Future Tense
This tense generally denotes action that will occur in the future. This is best translated as "I will loose."

Example: 1Cr 6:3

Do you not know that we will judge angels?

5. The Perfect Tense
Action that has been completed in the past yet has results occurring in the present are expressed by the perfect tense. The perfect is often translated as "I have loosened."

Example: Jhn 19:22

Pilate answered, "That which I have written, I have written."

6. The Pluperfect Tense
The pluperfect has the same aspect as the perfect, yet it's time is farther removed into the past than that of the perfect. Both the completed action and the results of that action occur in the past. It also represents action that is complete and viewed from a point in the past time. [3] The usual translation for the pluperfect is "I had loosened."

Example: Mar 15:46

In a tomb which had been hewn out of the rock

 

[GodsGrace101]

@

Regarding "Jesus did it all" (a sarcastic remark by you), yes He did, the works that Christians do that God has prepared from beforehand for us to do are part of our growth and maturity and an on going personal sanctification. You include "works" as part of your keeping yourself saved. Sorry God saves each individual Christian from when we are born again the beginning, through our maturity and until we receive our rewards at the "Bema seat of Christ" for our works while in the Body of Christ.

You may try to work/merit your way into God's Kingdom but the bible say's; "believe and you will be saved--
you and your household" Answer the question; Why should God let you into His Kingdom? because of your works/merit, or because of Jesus blood sacrifice on the cross for the forgiveness of our sins?

I believe Jesus paid it all, you do not--from Genesis to Revelation Jesus paid it all.

Acts16:31
They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household."

John6:28,29
28Then they inquired, “What must we do to perform the works of God?”
29Jesus replied, “The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent.”

Jesus Himself answers your questions...


I've been saying since I got here that it's very important to understand what the word believe means.

It means to obey and I've posted many links proving this.
If one believes in Jesus....he will obey Jesus...
If one obeys Jesus.....he will have THINGS TO DO.

Jesus did what HE had to do....now it's up to us.


Please explain the following verse:

2 Timothy 3:16-17
All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.


It plainly states that we are to be adequate, equipped for every good work.
It sounds like some here don't like to work for God.


1 Peter 3:8-13
To sum up, all of you be harmonious, sympathetic, brotherly, kindhearted, and humble in spirit; not returning evil for evil or insult for insult, but giving a blessing instead; for you were called for the very purpose that you might inherit a blessing. For, "THE ONE WHO DESIRES LIFE, TO LOVE AND SEE GOOD DAYS, MUST KEEP HIS TONGUE FROM EVIL AND HIS LIPS FROM SPEAKING DECEIT.

The above tells us how we should behave.
Are we behaving as such?


And what does Jesus say about doing good?
The following sounds like we are asked to do good deeds by the One who will judge us:


John 5:28-29
"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.


And....


Romans 2:5-11
But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If I will judge a congregation it will be over the message.....

I do not drink even for the taste... I know wine is different now than it used to be

but if Jesus can sit and eat and drink with sinners in order to plant seeds of truth

an annual football game or an eat out to encourage more heads to hear the GOOD NEWS does not make a bad church
.....


though UG makes a decent point about dividing worship from evangelism... I also know I worship every day... not only in church

and I wish to share the gospel.... not only when that is my main purpose for going somewhere....

(guess I more agree with brother bill)

anyways

love you all the same

God bless

My church teaches book to book. For example. When we teach in John, we start in th ebeginning and go to the end this could take serveral month, Some have taken a year) Yet at every teaching, our teachers make sure the gospel is given.. We do not assume all our people are saved.