Did mis-treatment of woman begin with Adam?

[PennEd]

I don't know. I just find it amazing how Christians keep looking to Adam and Eve to figure out how things developed the way they did in this world. It’s kinda weird how people forget (or don’t realize at all) that God purposed for things to be exactly the way they are, that He deliberately created fleshly humans that He knew beforehand were going to rebel against Him. God predestined things the way they are.

My question to Jesus hasn’t been, “Why did Adam or Eve do this or that?” Seriously, what difference does it make? My question has always been to the Lord, “Why did You create the world in such a weird way?” And His answer is always the same, “For My own pleasure.” And I’m like, “How can You find pleasure in rebellious people?”

Then I think of my own children. My sons and my daughter have rebelled against me in the past and at times have crushed my heart beyond belief. But they also have given me (and still do! ) tremendous joy and I feel like the luckiest person in the world when they tell me they love me and I know they mean it. So I can understand God’s desire toward us knuckleheads.

If you wonder why Adam or Eve did what they did, all you have to do is look within your own heart. Everyone wants to go their own way, nobody wants to listen to God by sheer nature. Nobody wants to take the blame, they all are looking for an excuse. Everybody wants to rule the world. Period.

God our Father wanted children and here we all are. God loves us, guides us, makes us more and more in the image of Christ Jesus so He can have a sincere relationship with us. He wants to set us free from the worldly, immature, baby life of the flesh so we can be mature and alive with Him in the Spirit. He started with Adam.

These passages answer the why I think:

Luke 7:36-50 New King James Version (NKJV)
A Sinful Woman Forgiven
36 Then one of the Pharisees asked Him to eat with him. And He went to the Pharisee’s house, and sat down to eat. 37 And behold, a woman in the city who was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at the table in the Pharisee’s house, brought an alabaster flask of fragrant oil, 38 and stood at His feet behind Him weeping; and she began to wash His feet with her tears, and wiped them with the hair of her head; and she kissed His feet and anointed them with the fragrant oil. 39 Now when the Pharisee who had invited Him saw this, he spoke to himself, saying, “This Man, if He were a prophet, would know who and what manner of woman this is who is touching Him, for she is a sinner.”

40 And Jesus answered and said to him, “Simon, I have something to say to you.

So he said, “Teacher, say it.”

41 “There was a certain creditor who had two debtors. One owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. 42 And when they had nothing with which to repay, he freely forgave them both. Tell Me, therefore, which of them will love him more?”

43 Simon answered and said, “I suppose the one whom he forgave more.”

And He said to him, “You have rightly judged.” 44 Then He turned to the woman and said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave Me no water for My feet, but she has washed My feet with her tears and wiped them with the hair of her head. 45 You gave Me no kiss, but this woman has not ceased to kiss My feet since the time I came in. 46 You did not anoint My head with oil, but this woman has anointed My feet with fragrant oil. 47 Therefore I say to you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much. But to whom little is forgiven, the same loves little.”

48 Then He said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”

49 And those who sat at the table with Him began to say to themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?”

50 Then He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you. Go in peace.”

Ephesians 2:7 New King James Version (NKJV)
7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

 

[SIMON55]

Both ideas are nonsensical.

Adam actually SUCCUMBED TO EVE. In modern parlance he would be called a wussy or some such term. And he thereby brought a curse on himself and the human race.

Here is what happened: ...she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Now had Adam been inclined to do the right thing, here is what he would have done:

1. He would have told Eve in no uncertain terms that she had disobeyed God.

2. He would have absolutely refused to be a party to her disobedience.

3. He would have immediately gone to God and asked Him to deal with this.

Agreed....you have correctly Identified the correct and proper recourse of action in all good logical discernment.
Proper path of law , which they were under one they were forbode forbade or forbidden .
Would have been to confront God with the fact that the helpmate which he manufactured was defective , had committed transgression and was at(tempt)ing to commit solicitation and seduction to corruption through temptation to be a co-conspirator against the law......
And request God to correct the defect of character that allowed Eve to be susceptible to serpent seduction and temptation and propensity to deception.
All of which opens Pandoras box to a whole host of other speculations which you have left unaddressed😀
Shall we examine them?
Shall we begin with the most glaring thereof ?
1. Is the Creator God capable of creating something which can even be considered defective and if so are we to contemplate predestination or purposeful intent ?
2. If God created the seducing defiling fallen serpent was this also predestined intent.
3. Obviously the previous bring on a whole discussion or interjections of free will.

The door to a thousand additional considerations speculations and potential variances swings wide open unless we reside ourselves to resolutely accept the predestination that all things have come to pass exactly in accordance with the Creators purposefull intent of his will!
😀......All Glory be to the highest wisdom of our Crator Father and Savior.

 

[SIMON55]

The only thing in this passage that says the man and woman are cursed, are the 2 titles, which are not part of the original Hebrew! Your KJV is the same as any other. The ground and the plants were cursed.

Maybe you should read a modern version that you can understand better? Certainly, KJV is right here, but the inserted titles are not!

Here is what my copy of the KJV says:

"Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return." Gen. 3:17-19

No inserted titles, no curse on the man and the woman. Although I certainly agree with you the Fall caused all our problems, especially separation from God. Praise God he sent Jesus to take our place on the cross.

A little help here please excuse my tardiness and chronologically slower comprehension or inferior intellect of discernment.
Do I need to consul

 

[SIMON55]

Curb your bombastic, narrow-minded dogmatism. Here's what the plain text says:

Genesis 3:14-19 (KJV)
14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

As you can see, the serpent is cursed and the ground is cursed. That word is not used in reference to the man or the woman.

To cont. What spastically self posted by defective technology....
Do I need to consult a dictionary or can I $ a clue as to how multiplied sorrow and things acursed for your SAKE aren't the same as a direct acursing.?

 

[AuntieAnt]

If God created Adam and Eve sinless and perfect and they had yet no knowledge of good and evil, then it seems logical to assume that Eve had no knowledge of disobeying God till AFTER the fact. She had no knowledge of good and evil till AFTER she ate the fruit. Her eyes were open to sin only AFTER she bit into the fruit. Eve was tricked by the serpent’s lie. And the serpent was God's creation, too.

Genesis 3:1
Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made.

 

[SIMON55]

They didnt even know they were naked until after they ate of the fruit.

That's some poweful anasethic I'm still blurry and trying to resist the temptation to beg for defilement......
Equation.....Serpent seduction -serpent defilement- female seduction-man-female defilement man.......
SIMON55 STILL BLURRY
7K YR LATER😀

 

[Lanolin]

No it began with Satan who was jealous of God creating men and women. Satan went after eve because eve was helping Adam.

Satan targets women, because he is cunning and wants to get man to fall.

Check out genesis 3:15

The children of darkness (satan) will always battle the children of light (God) . When man mistreats women its satan getting in between them so his seed will bruise her head, and her seed will bruise his heel. This is enmity, or in some translations, hostility.

The husbands ruling over women shows if a husband is a lousy ruler the woman will still want to be ruled by him anyway. Becsuse adam was sinful and a bit useless...lets be honest here, that was eves punishment to let him be the boss.

 

[SIMON55]

No it began with Satan who was jealous of God creating men and women. Satan went after eve because eve was helping Adam.

Satan targets women, because he is cunning and wants to get man to fall.

Check out genesis 3:15

The children of darkness (satan) will always battle the children of light (God) . When man mistreats women its satan getting in between them so his seed will bruise her head, and her seed will bruise his heel. This is enmity, or in some translations, hostility.

The husbands ruling over women shows if a husband is a lousy ruler the woman will still want to be ruled by him anyway. Becsuse adam was sinful and a bit useless...lets be honest here, that was eves punishment to let him be the boss.

Some of us have a tendency to believe a serpent enmity seed got inside Eve and resulted in the firstborn murderer Cain otherwise Cain be listed in Adam genealogy and Adam would have had to have murderer DNA direct from his Creator to pass to Cain....? Enmity seed take the commas and or supposed hesitations out of the verses what do you get?😀

 

[SIMON55]

If God created Adam and Eve sinless and perfect and they had yet no knowledge of good and evil, then it seems logical to assume that Eve had no knowledge of disobeying God till AFTER the fact. She had no knowledge of good and evil till AFTER she ate the fruit. Her eyes were open to sin only AFTER she bit into the fruit. Eve was tricked by the serpent’s lie. And the serpent was God's creation, too.

Genesis 3:1
Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made.

Sounds like your claiming predestination, justifying Eve and blaming God....?
Just saying....😀

 

[7seasrekeyed]

I believe that when part of Adam was taken from him and made into 2 beings, the prior truth he once knew was blurry. (No excuse)
But the thought of seeing a naked woman can distort a man's sense of right and wrong.

God made the woman beautiful to the eye for a reason.

uh

no

just no

shakes head and wonders why people insist on making their own narrative when the Bible is so clear

 

[7seasrekeyed]

If God created Adam and Eve sinless and perfect and they had yet no knowledge of good and evil, then it seems logical to assume that Eve had no knowledge of disobeying God till AFTER the fact. She had no knowledge of good and evil till AFTER she ate the fruit. Her eyes were open to sin only AFTER she bit into the fruit. Eve was tricked by the serpent’s lie. And the serpent was God's creation, too.

Genesis 3:1
Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made.

whaaaa?

Eve was deceived but God was pretty clear

'oh I'll just try it once' has led to many a downfall

 

[Hevosmies]

Perhaps you have me on Ignore, and you won't see this.

What do you mean by "God said how it's going to be in Genesis 3:16"?

I mean that God ordained it that way. Not that pain while giving birth or sweating while working is a good or fun thing, but thats just what God ordained.

Peter in the NT is repeating the idea of Genesis 3:16 too so to me thats convincing enough that even in the NT the same thing remains. 1 Peter 3, im sure you know the verses. As I pointed out men are given HUGE responsibility, to love wives as CHRIST loved the church.

But Dino, I know you and I are probably miles apart on this topic and many others, maybe we will meet in the middle of the globe.
With that being said, I already apologized publicly in general for my rude posts on another topic here, HOWEVER: I want to apologize to you PERSONALLY for my rude behavior, I can be stubborn and petty at times, its something I need to work on. I come from the mean streets and im only now getting used to civilian life, hence why I run off at the mouth at times. Its no excuse for poor behavior, but I thought i'd mention it. I APOLOGIZE. Im sorry Dino

 

[7seasrekeyed]

whaaaa?

Eve was deceived but God was pretty clear

'oh I'll just try it once' has led to many a downfall

gotta add this:

if her eyes were opened to sin after the fact (which I agree with considering they made leaf costumes pretty quick, but why would they consider being naked a sin especially since they had already been naked ? never mind that question)

as I was saying, if her eyes were opened that she had sinned, what does that make her offering the fruit to Adam as?

starting to get worse....

 

[AuntieAnt]

Sounds like your claiming predestination, justifying Eve and blaming God....?
Just saying....😀

Heehee! You're always good for a chuckle, Simon.

Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for Thou hast created all things, and for Thy pleasure they are and were created.

Colossians 1:16 For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him.

I'm not blaming God, silly man. I'm attributing everything to God. Nothing was made that wasn't made by Him. It does not matter what it appears to you or me or anyone else. In God's Spiritual realm, He gets glory for a-n-y-t-h-i-n-g that was created.

 

[Nehemiah6]

1. Is the Creator God capable of creating something which can even be considered defective and if so are we to contemplate predestination or purposeful intent ?
2. If God created the seducing defiling fallen serpent was this also predestined intent.
3. Obviously the previous bring on a whole discussion or interjections of free will.

The resolution to all these issues is FREE WILL.

1. God created all things (including His creatures) as perfect. For men and angels that was physical and moral perfection.

2. At the same time God gave men and angels free will -- the capacity to either (a) freely love and obey God or (b) disobey Him and suffer the consequences.

3. Lucifer (the highest angel at creation) actually had the audacity to try to make himself equal to God, or what is worse, higher than God. Thus he and his rebel angels were cast out of God's Heaven and placed in the atmospheric heaven, where Satan (the Adversary of God and man) became "the prince of the power of the air".

4. Shortly after the creation of Adam and Eve (or so it would appear) Satan entered into a Serpent/Dragon and enticed Eve to disobey God. He did not seduce her (as some legends claim).

5. Both Adam and Eve knew what God had said to Adam regarding the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden. So neither of them had any excuse to disobey God.

6. God did NOT predestine them to disobey, but He already knew (through divine foreknowledge) that they would sin, therefore He already planned for the Lamb of God to take away the sin of the world (1 Pet 1:18-20)

 

[AuntieAnt]

And what's even more astonishing, is that even with the Bible's account of the fall of man, and with all the opinions about who, what, where, when, why, and how Adam and Eve rebelled, not one of us on this forum can keep from sinning. It's only by the grace of Jesus we are made perfect in spirit. Nobody here is righteous in the flesh. Or in the intellect.

 

[SIMON55]

Heehee! You're always good for a chuckle, Simon.

Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for Thou hast created all things, and for Thy pleasure they are and were created.

Colossians 1:16 For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him.

I'm not blaming God, silly man. I'm attributing everything to God. Nothing was made that wasn't made by Him. It does not matter what it appears to you or me or anyone else. In God's Spiritual realm, He gets glory for a-n-y-t-h-i-n-g that was created.

And I understand and agree with you and maybe using the word blame was a misnomer that should have been attributed as you say .My main motivation was driving at the concept of predestination which your additional commentary adds creedence to....Much of scripture gives an implication of predetermination or predestination and seems to contradict the free will concept.....imo.....
In regards to the specific events of this thread subject I made another post that directly questions predestination...
Are you aware some pastors teach doctrine that this is the second earth age......not pre or post deluvial but time reset or do over.......?
At least if I am good for a laugh then I am good for something....😀
Which would be better than gfn....the age 2 teachers say there is predestination based on first age freewill choices.
Its a big leap!!!!

 

[SIMON55]

The resolution to all these issues is FREE WILL.

1. God created all things (including His creatures) as perfect. For men and angels that was physical and moral perfection.

2. At the same time God gave men and angels free will -- the capacity to either (a) freely love and obey God or (b) disobey Him and suffer the consequences.

3. Lucifer (the highest angel at creation) actually had the audacity to try to make himself equal to God, or what is worse, higher than God. Thus he and his rebel angels were cast out of God's Heaven and placed in the atmospheric heaven, where Satan (the Adversary of God and man) became "the prince of the power of the air".

4. Shortly after the creation of Adam and Eve (or so it would appear) Satan entered into a Serpent/Dragon and enticed Eve to disobey God. He did not seduce her (as some legends claim).

5. Both Adam and Eve knew what God had said to Adam regarding the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden. So neither of them had any excuse to disobey God.

6. God did NOT predestine them to disobey, but He already knew (through divine foreknowledge) that they would sin, therefore He already planned for the Lamb of God to take away the sin of the world (1 Pet 1:18-20)

Ok.....so I agree with your logic on everything but if as you say.....#4 didnt occur or a defilement didn't happen then....what reconciles or substantiates....
1. Cain firstborn being a murderer.
2. Cain not being in Adams descent.
3. Although non canonical the book of Enoch saying the 200 fallen defiled everything on earth.
4. Genesis 6:4 I do not agree are the Sons of Seth as some say.....and I believe enmity seed is exactly that....
5. The sons of Anak the Anaki reappear post flood and three other I think giant families and God....saying kill them all is obviously. ......
6.....Contaminated corrupted seed imo.....or as is said cainite.......
7. Christ's dialogue with Pharisees saying your father is a SNAKE! ?
8. Lastly an offtopic ? Because I respect your logic what do you say to those that profess a doctrine that this is not the first earth age that time was reset so to speak and....how do we explain the giant monolithic stone structures without enmity seed giants and Supernatural Angels involvement.?😀

 

[SIMON55]

gotta add this:

if her eyes were opened to sin after the fact (which I agree with considering they made leaf costumes pretty quick, but why would they consider being naked a sin especially since they had already been naked ? never mind that question)

as I was saying, if her eyes were opened that she had sinned, what does that make her offering the fruit to Adam as?

starting to get worse....

Sounds like your saying she became a ho that didn't want to be alone in her sin?😀

 

[TM19782017]

uh

no

just no

shakes head and wonders why people insist on making their own narrative when the Bible is so clear

Really? An English written word, is clear in definition? The definition is clear cut, black and white and impossible to define any other way?

All should see things exactly the same if that were true.

Here is a challenge, Let’s everyone on the forum, go out and get a GREY shirt. Let’s return and show our GREY shirts. Now almost everyone’s shirt will not be the same exact color. Why is that’s?
So the question remains, who actually has the color?
Who is correct? And does it or, should it matter that what another’s eyes see as how they interpret the color grey?

What you look at is not what matters but what you see is.