Can We Eliminate the Divide Between Calvinism and Arminianism?

[GodsGrace101]

Hi, GodsGrace101 -

Thank you for replying.

You have made the following claim:

Election has nothing to do with God choosing which Jews will be saved. Instead, election has to do with God electing, or choosing the Hebrews/Israelites/Jews to be the chosen people through whom God would reveal Himself.

Can you please demonstrate your claim to be true with convincing and compelling argumentation?


Thanks, again.

I just saw this..... By accident.
If you don't tag a person.... How will they know you wrote to them?!

Will answer when at computer....

 

[Didymous]

Can we eliminate the divide between the C's and the A's? Nope.

 

[xjohnson]

I just saw this..... By accident.
If you don't tag a person.... How will they know you wrote to them?!

Will answer when at computer....

How do I tag a person?

 

[Chester]

Can we eliminate the divide between Calvinism and Arminianism?

Its not looking too good so far...

LOL! The funny thing is that most of debating here claim to be neither Calvinistic nor Arminian!

You don't understand what you yourself are saying.

The Lord Jesus has made everything white. Except those who haven't believed are still black.

So the conclusion is that the Lord hasn't made everything white. Only those who believe are made white.

But then you say, no, He has made everything white.

So then I ask, so that YOU can see your folly, EVEN unbelievers are made white?

NO, silly, that is illogical, you say. Unbelievers are still black.


I know that's what I've been saying. That's what Calvinism says.

If you cook a meal for 10 people: you have everything in order and have the table set and the guests are all invited. You did your part with the preparations, invitations, etc.

But if only 5 guests show up for your meal, the other five who do not show up will not get any food.

That is the way I see it: You are attempting to bring in God's view and his sovereignty and I am OK with that: but the point still stands that the guest who does not come to the banquet does not get fed. Yes, God will search and seek the lost, but does not force them to come to his banquet.

 

[Chester]

There is a logical falacy in this system

Even the person who believes could never have assurance, Because he could never be assured he would remain in belief. His assurance is based in His ability, Not Gods.

Thus logically. It is a works based system in which no one could possibly have any assurance in (are you trustworthy?)

Huh? I believe in Jesus Christ and I know that I have eternal life because of Jesus Christ! Quite simple!

If I were to adopt the Calvinistic idea of "eternal security" I would have to worry about my works. Because if I was not doing enough works then my initial salvation would be in doubt.

You may view it differently; that is fine with me. But I have found security and meaning and life in faith in Christ. That is good enough for me.

 

[Chester]

In fact, Jesus’ pre-crucifixion ministry was to the Jew only, but for the benefit of both Jew and Gentile.

You do give some good thoughts in your answer, but such blatantly wrong statements such as the one above cause all of your answer to be slanted and confusing.

Jesus clearly ministered to Samaritans, to Jews, and to Gentiles. The Gospels were written for everyone, and I will not regulate the words of Jesus to a "Jews only" mentality.

It is enough for me to just take Scripture for what it says.

 

[GodsGrace101]

How do I tag a person?

If you use the "reply" button down at the lower right hand corner,,,it happens automatically.
Which I think you must know.

Otherwise,,,,,
Use the @ key and then type the name of the member.
You'll find that after you've typed 2 or 3 letters, their name will automaatically come up.
Just click on it.

A tag will look like this:

@xjohnson

 

[garee]

Can a man dying of thirst resist water?

Can a man dying of hunger resist food?

No. Not anymore than a man seeing his spiritual death can resist Grace. Not unless he's even dumber than I was. And I don't see how that would be possible... lol

The gospel is not about being smart or dumb. Its not about us making the smart choice as if the faith to believe another came from us to begin with.

Faith as a work that works in us is the gift previously having zero. not little...…….. none.

Its about God having mercy on who he decides will receive mercy. He is of mind and always does whatsoever his soul desires. As many as he has given to the son called the elect they alone will come. Not one more or one less that the names he wrote down in the lambs book of life slain from before the foundation of the world.

 

[garee]

Whatever brother.Maybe I didn't understand you...

Let me make this clear:


In the calvinist theology:

GOD CHOOSES THOSE THAT WILL BE SAVED and those that will go to hell.

Mankind is born dead in their trespasses and sin without hope and without God in the present life. As soon as they are born they go forth telling lies (breaking the commandments) If not born again through the hearing of the gospel .They will not rise to new spirit life on the last day .

Hell is the living suffering we face in this life as those under the wrath of God revealed daily (dying in these bodies of death ).
Christians can receive the sabbath rest that comes from hearing Christ who dwells in us so we do not harden our hearts. Called mixing faith in Hebrew 4.

Those who do receive a new born again Spirit of Christ they will never die and will be given a new body on the last day . The temporal corrupted spirit of those with no faith will return to the father of all spirit life and the clay bodies will return to the dust of the field the moment they take their last breath .

Jesus sacrifice was ONLY FOR THE CHOSEN BY GOD...Also incorrectly known as the ELECT...since thta's not what the Elect is referring to.

MAN IS BORN TOTALLY DEPRAVED....not just with the sin nature as all of the rest of Christiandom believes.

Can't separate the elect from the elect. The names are written down and the books must be compared.

 

[Nehemiah6]

So, effectively, the Lord Jesus died for the sins of all the people in the world that would accept His Death for the remission of their sin.

Yes, but Calvinism takes this one step further. It says that the Atonement was limited. That only the elect were included in the Atonement. That is the "L" of Tulip -- Limited Atonement.

"Limited atonement is the teaching within Calvinism which states that Jesus only bore the sins of the elect (those chosen for salvation by God) and that He did not bear the sins of every individual who has ever lived. This teaching is also called "particular redemption" and "definite atonement." This doctrine is known within Reformed theology and is also considered one of the five points of Calvinism known by the acronym TULIP. T = Total Depravity. U = Unconditional Election. L = Limited Atonement. I = Irresistible Grace. P = Perseverance of the Saints."
https://carm.org/what-is-limited-atonement

And that is PATENTLY FALSE. So would you rather support a false Gospel or stick with the true Gospel?

 

[NayborBear]

James 1
James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.....

There "are" gentiles from the 12 tribes of Israel, that have been scattered abroad, for such a length of time, that traditions of man? Have eroded, or/and have been oppressed, or even suppressed, knowingly, or not, willingly, or not, to such a degree, that they no longer remember, let alone "identify" with Jews, or Israel, for that matter.
"Spiritual Israel", is what I've seen, or heard these "scattered (Spiritual) seeds" being referred to as.
Nevertheless, for all intensive purposes? These people ARE gentiles!

And "this", is where the "rub" comes, as they say, between Calvinism vs. Arminianism.
Which you so successfully defined in the last coupla of sentences of your post.

Now! Concerning God's "Irresistable Grace?" Of the which, the Arminian crowd contends can be resisted?
Indeed! It can! And Has! Even to these last days! But, at what cost? To the continued detrimental physical, mental, and spiritual health of the "resistor/s!"
Generational curse, of worshiping idols, notwithstanding.
It is therefore my contention that Arminian's, are nothing more then "Working out their salvation with fear and tremblings" away from "noticing" that John Calvin. ain't as "dumb" as they USED to think he was!

First though! They'll have to come to terms that "they" were "bought with a PRICE", and "pick up their cross", to get "off" the "Free Parking", they now so "thoroughly enjoy", with their "free will" resistance!

I myself, am not a "dyed in the wool" Calvinist! Yet? Have found many tenets of Calvin's, to be "too supernaturally" similiar, for me to consider them as "mere" coincidences!

 

[Grandpa]

Grandpa said:


So effectively, the curse in Isaiah isn't really just a curse against Jews. Its a statement of fact against all mankind.

Hi, Grandpa -

Can you elaborate more on this in terms of how you reached this conclusion?

Thanks in advance.

Sure.

It gets a little dicey when you try to exclude Gentiles from Jews when it comes to Salvation. I don't think you can separate the spiritual reality of what is given to Israel vs what is given to the Gentile world.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


This applies to everyone who is saved, Jew and Gentile. It is saying that salvation is NOT of your "free will". Salvation doesn't come through what you do or what you think. Salvation comes through the gift of God.

If all gentiles could see what God gives and could see what God does then all gentiles would be saved. But nobody gets it. Not until after they are saved are their eyes opened to what God Has Done.

This goes for Jews and Gentiles alike.

Galatians 3:28 there is no jew or gentile for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (paraphrase)


Its not as if the Jew is extra blind to what God has done or has less understanding than gentiles. We are all in the same boat, spiritually speaking.

 

[Grandpa]

LOL! The funny thing is that most of debating here claim to be neither Calvinistic nor Arminian!


If you cook a meal for 10 people: you have everything in order and have the table set and the guests are all invited. You did your part with the preparations, invitations, etc.

But if only 5 guests show up for your meal, the other five who do not show up will not get any food.

That is the way I see it: You are attempting to bring in God's view and his sovereignty and I am OK with that: but the point still stands that the guest who does not come to the banquet does not get fed. Yes, God will search and seek the lost, but does not force them to come to his banquet.

So then you can't say you have fed the Whole World.

You can say you provided food for the whole world. Anyone who wishes can come and eat.

But all the people who don't come and eat you would HAVE to say were not fed.


This is just semantics and I don't know why you won't admit that? We both view this the same. The only difference is that I see God as the One bringing us to the Meal and you see everyone free willing themselves to the meal.

But we don't even have to bring that part up. We can just both agree that those who aren't saved DON'T have their sins forgiven. And by implication of this fact we can say that the Lord Jesus Christ died for the sins of the Believer but the unbeliever retains his/her sins.

Is it that bad to be logical about this?

 

[Grandpa]

The gospel is not about being smart or dumb. Its not about us making the smart choice as if the faith to believe another came from us to begin with.

Faith as a work that works in us is the gift previously having zero. not little...…….. none.

Its about God having mercy on who he decides will receive mercy. He is of mind and always does whatsoever his soul desires. As many as he has given to the son called the elect they alone will come. Not one more or one less that the names he wrote down in the lambs book of life slain from before the foundation of the world.

You are right about that.

We are all equally dumb in the eyes of the Lord. None of us has an advantage over the other in Salvation.

Salvation is the Gift of God and not of works of men.

And none of us can see this until AFTER the Lord has opened our eyes.

 

[Grandpa]

Yes, but Calvinism takes this one step further. It says that the Atonement was limited. That only the elect were included in the Atonement. That is the "L" of Tulip -- Limited Atonement.

"Limited atonement is the teaching within Calvinism which states that Jesus only bore the sins of the elect (those chosen for salvation by God) and that He did not bear the sins of every individual who has ever lived. This teaching is also called "particular redemption" and "definite atonement." This doctrine is known within Reformed theology and is also considered one of the five points of Calvinism known by the acronym TULIP. T = Total Depravity. U = Unconditional Election. L = Limited Atonement. I = Irresistible Grace. P = Perseverance of the Saints."
https://carm.org/what-is-limited-atonement

And that is PATENTLY FALSE. So would you rather support a false Gospel or stick with the true Gospel?

This is what I explain to you but you refuse to see.

The Atonement IS LIMITED.

IF it applies to everyone in the world who has ever lived or ever will live then NO SIN CAN BE IMPUTED TO ANYONE.

Therefore ALL people, regardless of what they believe or what they do, are in a state of Righteousness before God.

Calvinism refutes that. Calvinism states that only Believers are Saved. Therefore the Atonement only Atones for the Believer.


So yes, I disregard your misunderstanding of what the Gospel actually is.

 

[Bingo]

'The age that is being witnessed far and wide...the lose of man's spiritual equilibrium."

 

[obedienttogod]

Hi, Obedienttogod -

Thank you for replying.

I was raised in a Christian family as well, and I didn't hear about the Calvinism vs Arminianism debate until well into my 30s. The only pronounced distinction among the saints I remember being discussed as I was growing up is Pentecostal vs non-Pentecostal.

Again, thanks for sharing.

Same here (Pentecostal, was raised Pentecostal)...

Our biggest discussion was not towards other denominations, but generally how they baptized.

 

[Bingo]

"Paradoxical thinking has confused the wisdom of the wise. With the entirety of
the complexity of the Bible, many are out of their element, I for one have to keep it simple.
Striving to apply God's 'principles' of life, a challenge for anyone that is not in contempt of the truth."
'Praise God'

 

[Nehemiah6]

IF it applies to everyone in the world who has ever lived or ever will live then NO SIN CAN BE IMPUTED TO ANYONE.

That's where you and most Calvinists simply STUMBLE.

The Atonement is AVAILABLE to all who will repent and believe. If all would obey the Gospel all would be saved, without exception, since CHRIST TASTED DEATH FOR EVERY MAN.

But the finished work of Christ is NOT automatically applied to anyone, least of all the so-called *elect* of the Calvinists. If they did not repent and believe, they could not be saved.

 

[garee]

That's where you and most Calvinists simply STUMBLE.

The Atonement is AVAILABLE to all who will repent and believe. If all would obey the Gospel all would be saved, without exception, since CHRIST TASTED DEATH FOR EVERY MAN.

But the finished work of Christ is NOT automatically applied to anyone, least of all the so-called *elect* of the Calvinists. If they did not repent and believe, they could not be saved.

In all cases God the creator of all things must do the first works.It includes the work of repenting. If any man has not the Spirit of Christ they cannot repent. Who and where would they turn to first and foremost their own hearts or one newly created?