Name It and Claim It

[Guojing]

Luke 9:58 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
58 He answered, “The foxes have holes to live in. The birds have nests. But the Son of Man has no place where he can rest his head.”

Since this is a popular interpretation of this verse: that Jesus is poor because he has no place to rest his head, let me now offer a different interpretation based on scripture.

Isaiah 62: 6-7
“I have set watchmen upon your walls, O Jerusalem, who will never hold their peace day or night; you who [are His servants and by your prayers] put the Lord in remembrance [of His promises], keep not silence, And give Him no rest until He establishes Jerusalem and makes her a praise in the earth.”

In this context the establishment of Jerusalem refers to a righteousness that is unwavering. See verse 1 “For Zion’s sake I will not hold My peace, And for Jerusalem’s sake I will not rest, Until her righteousness goes forth as brightness, And her salvation as a lamp that burns.”

He cannot rest until he establishes a righteousness that burns with brightness. FOR YOU.

The Bible tells us Jesus finally found His rest after He said “it is finished”. See John 19:30 “When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.” The word “bow” is the Greek is the same word “rest”.

He finally rested on the cross. Isaiah 62 tells us that God is relentless is His pursuit of our righteousness. It basically means God is interested in working for your righteousness and He will not rest until He finds it for you.

Our Lord Jesus finally did it. On the cross. He finally rested His head. He became you and you became Him. He became Sin. You became the righteousness of God. 2 Corinthians 5:21.

Jesus is now seated. He no longer stands. The work is done. He is now at rest. I hope this will be a more convincing interpretation of what Jesus was really saying in Luke 9:58.

And of course, you are free to reject it and continue to believe that Jesus was saying he is financially poor to fit your own beliefs. As that Deut passage I have used, we have to choose on our own.

 

[wolfwint]

You must be hopelessly confused. Are you not aware Galatians is in the NT and is written to the Gentile Church? What does 3:14 says to you?

Confused? The Galatians believers where jews and gentiles, otherwise the judaists which came down from jerusalem could not have influence to the believers and force them to follow the mosaic law. And bring so an other gospel to them: Jesus plus the law.

The thing is that we have different ways to lay out the bible.
You, it seems to me, take simply everything what is written and fix it together to an doctrine.
I ( and f.e. Angela) consider the text according certain hermeneutic rules. She explained this in this thread very well.
The problem you and this WOF defenders have is, that you teach something what is not coming true.
It sounds good, but the proof is very poor.

So it seems that God is not supporting your view.

If you compare the healing reports in the Gospels and Acts with your doctrine, then we find in the biblical reports that the healings came directly and it was open to recognize for the people on the places where their was taking place. For believers and mostly nonbelievers.
Where are all the multitude healed persons in the name it and claim it events? Why they have to wait for their physical healing if they are already healed spiritual?
This makes no sense.

Also is to note, that this teaching we cant find in the NT churches.
Came this teaching not along with the charismatic movements?

 

[Guojing]

Confused? The Galatians believers where jews and gentiles, otherwise the judaists which came down from jerusalem could not have influence to the believers and force them to follow the mosaic law. And bring so an other gospel to them: Jesus plus the law.

Strange enough, you are unwilling to quote the exact verse Gal 3:14 despite repeated prompting. Let me ask you the questions then:

1. What is the blessings of Abraham to you?
2. When Gentiles are blessed with the blessings of Abraham, do you think it includes health?
3. Was Abraham ever recorded to be sick?
4. Can you be the "heir of the world" if you are lying sick at your back?

 

[Angela53510]

Strange enough, you are unwilling to quote the exact verse Gal 3:14 despite repeated prompting. Let me ask you the questions then:

1. What is the blessings of Abraham to you?
2. When Gentiles are blessed with the blessings of Abraham, do you think it includes health?
3. Was Abraham ever recorded to be sick?
4. Can you be the "heir of the world" if you are lying sick at your back?

I can hardly believe how you can take a blessing like Genesis 12, and make it all about 21st healings which are not immediately evident. Because they are made up in the minds of those who are caught in the Word Faith cult.

"Now the Lord said to Abram,
“Go out from your country, your relatives, and your father’s household
to the land that I will show you.
2 Then I will make you into a great nation, and I will bless you,
and I will make your name great,
so that you will exemplify divine blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
but the one who treats you lightly I must curse,
and all the families of the earth will bless one another by your name.” Gen. 12:1-3

So, what exactly does this blessing imply? To make it short, the three cohortatives (vs 2a, 2b, "That I may," "Then I will," and "be a blessing" indicate God's ultimate purpose in calling and blessing Abraham. It would be hard to overestimate the value of this call and this divine plan for the theology of the Bible. Here begins God's plan to bring redemption to the world. The promises of Abraham will be turned into a covenant in Genesis 15 and 22, (with conditional promises!) and will then lead through the Bible to the work of the Messiah.

Absolutely nothing about healing. The blessing is salvation. That is the work of the atonement, and how Christ redeemed us. There have been many in the Bible who have been sick, including King Uzziah with leprosy, who still inherited the promise of Abraham. Your questions are simply not sustainable from any reading of the Bible! anywhere! In fact, the first "blessing" that comes to Abraham is famine, in Genesis 12:10:

"There was a famine in the land, so Abram went down to Egypt to stay for a while because the famine was severe." Gen. 1:10

The king of Egypt and his family were struck down with sickness "severe diseases" because of Abraham's lie about Sarai. Of course, all the disobedience.

As for Galatians 3:14, another verse you failed to post, what exactly is Galatians about? It is a book written to correct bad doctrine, some of it coming from the Judaziers. Let's look at the passage here:

'just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?

7 Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify[c] the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.”9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” 12 But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— 14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith." GAL. 3:6-14

So, what is this passage above about? It is about healing? NO!! It is about righteousness, or being right before God. In other words, following God, obeying him, and serving him. We can never be righteous in our own strength, but we are to believe for salvation.

In neither passage, Gen. 12:1-3, or Gal. 3:6-14 is healing mentioned. What you have done, is predefined the word "blessing" to mean healing. In fact, the blessing is that "JESUS THE MESSIAH WOULD COME TO SAVE HIS PEOPLE." And please don't post some Strong's definition of sozo. (σῳζω) Bauer - pages 982-983

1. to preserve, rescue, from natural dangers,
a) save from death
b) bring out safely
c) save/free from disease. (Used mostly by Matthew and a little by Luke)
d) keep/preserve in good condition
e) Passive - thrive, prosper, get on well. Something done to you.
2. Save or preserve from transcendent danger or destruction, save/preserve from eternal death. Positive sense of the Messiah bringing salvation
a) of persons who are mediators of divine salvation. Romans 11:14; 1 Cor. 9:22
b) qualities that lead to salvation Luke 7:50
3. Passive - be saved, attain salvation

I know what the definition is in Greek. I know know what the definition of blessing is in Greek! The word eulogia (ἡ εὐλογία) in Bauer (BDAG) pages 408-9 means:

1. act of speaking in favourable terms, praise Rev. 5:12; 7:12.
2."fine speaking" or words that are well chosen, but not true. False eloquence, flattery. Romans 16:18
3. act or benefit of blessing, James 3:10.
a) by which persons call down God's grace upon other person's.
b) of God's activity of blessing.
c) of God's activity in blessing
d. as benefit by God or Christ. Eph. 1:3, Hebrews 12:17
d) in a special sense of divine benefit bestowed in the Eucharist. 1 Cor. 10:16
e) As benefit brought by humans.
4. generous gift or bounty Hb. 6:7


I suggest that all you Word Faith people support your statements with in context Bible verses. I really doubt after reading some of posts here, like the one I have quoted, that most of you Word Faith people have even read the Bible through, let alone the verses you are referring to. Instead of believing lying Word Faith teachers, go back and read your Bible, and you will find out the truth of who God is, and what Jesus came to do. Jesus healed because he had compassion. But, his mission was to bring eternal life, by dying on the cross. That is what the atonement, or redemption is all about!

 

[wolfwint]

Strange enough, you are unwilling to quote the exact verse Gal 3:14 despite repeated prompting. Let me ask you the questions then:

1. What is the blessings of Abraham to you?
2. When Gentiles are blessed with the blessings of Abraham, do you think it includes health?
3. Was Abraham ever recorded to be sick?
4. Can you be the "heir of the world" if you are lying sick at your back?

To 1 : God made him righeousness
because of his faith. Because of
his faith God promissed him the
land of Israel and multitude on
progeny.
I hold more to ephesians
chapter one.
To 2 : In the time of the OT it could:
Yes
To 3: No
To 4: Yes

Btw. In Leviticus are many deseases recordet. And God gave instruction how to handle with.
Nowhere is mentioned that they can be freed from this deseases through faith. Ore that they dont get them because they are in the blessings of Abraham.

 

[wolfwint]

Strange enough, you are unwilling to quote the exact verse Gal 3:14 despite repeated prompting. Let me ask you the questions then:

1. What is the blessings of Abraham to you?
2. When Gentiles are blessed with the blessings of Abraham, do you think it includes health?
3. Was Abraham ever recorded to be sick?
4. Can you be the "heir of the world" if you are lying sick at your back?

Btw Angela has meanwhike already explained Galatians 3,14 better then I can 😊

 

[Guojing]

Absolutely nothing about healing. The blessing is salvation. That is the work of the atonement, and how Christ redeemed us. There have been many in the Bible who have been sick, including King Uzziah with leprosy, who still inherited the promise of Abraham. Your questions are simply not sustainable from any reading of the Bible! anywhere! In fact, the first "blessing" that comes to Abraham is famine, in Genesis 12:10:

You cannot seem to accept the fact that people will interpret "blessings of Abraham" differently from you. Your interpretation of it being ONLY salvation from sins, and "absolutely nothing" about physical healing is your own personal interpretation.

That is fine, all of us must ultimately choose what to believe in. If you choose to believe that healing is not included, you will still get to heaven after this life on Earth. Like I said earlier, its how you get to heaven that differs from others.

 

[Guojing]

Btw. In Leviticus are many deseases recordet. And God gave instruction how to handle with.
Nowhere is mentioned that they can be freed from this deseases through faith. Ore that they dont get them because they are in the blessings of Abraham.

Jesus did not die on the cross in Leviticus, my dear.

As for your answers, here are my replies

2: The Gentiles were not included in the covenant that God made with Abraham and the Jews
4: If you think lying sick with diseases is what God wants you to be, to make you an heir to the world, I rest my case

 

[Angela53510]

You cannot seem to accept the fact that people will interpret "blessings of Abraham" differently from you. Your interpretation of it being ONLY salvation from sins, and "absolutely nothing" about physical healing is your own personal interpretation.

That is fine, all of us must ultimately choose what to believe in. If you choose to believe that healing is not included, you will still get to heaven after this life on Earth. Like I said earlier, its how you get to heaven that differs from others.

This is not a matter of interpretation. This is about READING THE TEXT AS IT IS. It is not about making up stuff, and then claiming you are right, when you probably have not even read the passage in question. Let alone hermeneutically divided it correctly. I am NOT choosing to believe healing is not included. Instead, I have read all the passages, and found there is NO MENTION of healing in any of the passages you put up. Do you even read what you write? You certainly do not quote or understand the meaning of the Bible.

So, you choose to believe lies, that is your problem. I just pray one day you will wake up and read the Bible without interpreting it through the eyes of a doctrinal lie that is so huge that it has deceived millions!

 

[Guojing]

This is not a matter of interpretation. This is about READING THE TEXT AS IT IS. It is not about making up stuff, and then claiming you are right, when you probably have not even read the passage in question. Let alone hermeneutically divided it correctly. I am NOT choosing to believe healing is not included. Instead, I have read all the passages, and found there is NO MENTION of healing in any of the passages you put up. Do you even read what you write? You certainly do not quote or understand the meaning of the Bible.

So, you choose to believe lies, that is your problem. I just pray one day you will wake up and read the Bible without interpreting it through the eyes of a doctrinal lie that is so huge that it has deceived millions!

You really sound like the elder brother in the parable of the prodigal son. Does it really matter that much to you that there are some Christians who chose to believe that God has already healed them, that by Jesus stripes they were healed?

That they are able to believe that even though their bodies tell them otherwise, because they choose to put their trust in the Word of God that says they were healed? Do you really think God will look at them and say, "You are foolish and misled?"

 

[wolfwint]

Jesus did not die on the cross in Leviticus, my dear.

As for your answers, here are my replies

2: The Gentiles were not included in the covenant that God made with Abraham and the Jews
4: If you think lying sick with diseases is what God wants you to be, to make you an heir to the world, I rest my case

And he went not on cross in Deut 30,19.
2. You are shure? Then you should read genesis 12, 3.
4. Where do you live? Maby it is so that you dont know sick christians.
I know enough and also die with their cancer.
Do you realy believe a sick christian is an unwantet child in the eyes of God?
And it is only the question they belive they are spirituell healed to become their health back?
As children of God we are already made to inherits (Ephesians 1 f.e.) doesnt matter in which health condition we are.

And again and again. You miss to bring the proof that your doctrine which is not taught in the NT is from God.

You speaking from the green table, but in reality your claim doesnt work.

 

[KelbyofGod]

Hi All,

I'm not sure if I've commented in this thread already but regarding the title of this thread... I think it casts too broad of a net. In other words its not a pass/fail comment. It needs much clarification before a particular aspect is isolated.

However..... on the topic of whether healings are available in Jesus, I'll admit that I'm a bit annoyed.... Does it really matter if the woman who touched the hem of Jesus' robe had a RIGHT to be healed, or rather that she simply had resolute faith that if she could at least get that close, God loved her enough to heal her?

You're all welcome to debate why some people DON'T get healed (just like you can debate why some people don't get saved, don't acquire intelligence, or don't obtain any other good thing) but I'm much more interested in how someone DOES obtain good outcomes.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[Guojing]

Hi All,

However..... on the topic of whether healings are available in Jesus, I'll admit that I'm a bit annoyed.... Does it really matter if the woman who touched the hem of Jesus' robe had a RIGHT to be healed, or rather that she simply had resolute faith that if she could at least get that close, God loved her enough to heal her?

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

Interesting question, I want to ask you, when Jesus asked "Who touched me", do you think he

1. Knew who touched him but choose to ask to get her to admit it? Or
2. Jesus didn't know who touched him?

Your answer to this question will determine how you think she got healed.

 

[Guojing]

You speaking from the green table, but in reality your claim doesnt work.

Alright then, see you in heaven after we both fall asleep. Cheers

 

[Angela53510]

You really sound like the elder brother in the parable of the prodigal son. Does it really matter that much to you that there are some Christians who chose to believe that God has already healed them, that by Jesus stripes they were healed?

That they are able to believe that even though their bodies tell them otherwise, because they choose to put their trust in the Word of God that says they were healed? Do you really think God will look at them and say, "You are foolish and misled?"

You sound like the younger brother in the parable- gambling, buying prostitutes and then eating with the pigs.

I can make ridiculous comparisons that are nonsense, too!

Sample conversation between Angela and Guojing:

G: My opinion is this! I'm right because of one verse. (no verse actually quoted, let alone where it is found in the Bible)

A:xxxxxxxxxxxxcxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxcccccccccccccc Book, chapter and verse!

G: I know I'm right! I know! (Throws out part of a verse)

A: xxxxxxxxxxxxcxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Xxxxxxxxxxxxcxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
XxxxxxxxxxxxcxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxXxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Book, chapter, 5 verses

G: Don't you understand that I am right!?

A: xxxxxxxxxxxxcxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxcxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Book, chapter, the whole passage!

G: I can make up anything I want!

A: I've posted all the verses in context. None of them say you can command healing. Please post support for your opinion from the Bible.

G: No seriously, healing is found in all kinda of places. Like Jesus healed in the Bible.

A. Of course he did!

G: That means I can heal, as long as I believe in something that isn't real, one day healing will happen.

A: Show me the verse, in context, where believing in something that isn't real, will result in in happening!

G: I can believe what I want!!!

A: Ok, so no verses. Just a few partial verses that are out of context. With no reference, and no mention of healing. I think we are done here!

 

[Angela53510]

As to why I fightbtgis horrible lie - because I was told I had no faith by 2 Word Faith people when their prayers did not heal me. I was in horrific physical pain, and I was stabbed in the back, by my 2 closest friends, who got sucked into this cult of death! Death, because when the woman got breast cancer, instead of doing chemo and radiation, she claimed healing, and died a year later when the cancer metastasized. The other friend got rushed to emergency, almost dead, for surgery, when he claimed a healing that didn't work. He survived, thanks to the doctors and surgery.

As for me, I turned away from God, stopped reading my bible and going to church. I was hurt to the core of my being. But God brought me back. He told me to read 5 Psalms a day. I met real people there, who were suffering, hurting but praised God in the midst of the storm. I praised God once more, for who he is! Not who Word Faith want him to be, merely an example of what they will one day be! But the living God!

People DIE all the time, from this heretical doctrine. Especially cancer! Because:
A. It does not work
B. It is not Biblical
C. It is a lie, and people become selfish and do not grow in integrity, godly character or righteousness. They forget about sin. They confuse the gospel, thinking it means healing, instead of redemption!
D. People focus on themselves, their faith, their beliefs, their abilities, their status as little gods, instead of focusing on who God is. The sovereign Lord of all creation. The Almighty! The Saviour!

The gospel is about God, not what you get out of it.

And, I am sick to death of hearing this garbage which is hermeneutically unsound. It twists and distorts the message of the Bible. It gives people false hope, in exchange for money. It preys upon people. If it was a solid Biblical doctrine, I would go my way. But I am not going to let one person believe this lie from the pit of hell!

Oh yes, I believe God can heal, when he wants. But God cannot be commanded, forced to heal, or made a servant.

Do not say I don't believe in healing. I do! What I do not believe is the lie that is Word Faith, which is based on lies and bad interpreting of the Bible. As well as seducing desperate people, with this lie.

You have believed a lie. Isa. 53:5d is not about physical healing. It is about healing of sin sick souls. It is a prophecy the Messiah will be born, and bring redemption to not only Abraham's children, but to Gentiles whom God calls.

There is no biblical basis for healing being part of the atonement. That is why this doctrine must be fought, because people are not healed, they are driven from God, they become bitter and angry, thinking God has abandoned them in their hour of greatest need.

There is no more evil and insidious doctrine, than one which promises much, and doesn't deliver in it! That is what Word Faith is. It tells people to lie to themselves, say that they are healed. In fact, from any viewpoint, lying about who or what you are, is ungodly. It is unethical.

Think about what you are saying!! You are saying, if you believe something that is not true, somehow it will magically become true, someday. Faith is not in your ability to completely believe a lie! That is a lack of integrity. Faith is about who God is, faith in God, not what you believe.

 

[Guojing]

There is no biblical basis for healing being part of the atonement. That is why this doctrine must be fought, because people are not healed, they are driven from God, they become bitter and angry, thinking God has abandoned them in their hour of greatest need.

How do you know salvation is part of the atonement then? Can you prove to anyone out there that you are indeed saved?

 

[KelbyofGod]

Interesting question, I want to ask you, when Jesus asked "Who touched me", do you think he

1. Knew who touched him but choose to ask to get her to admit it? Or
2. Jesus didn't know who touched him?

Your answer to this question will determine how you think she got healed.

Guojing,

That's a thought-provoking choice. I'm actually not sure how to choose.

I think Jesus totally knew that someone had touched him in faith, as opposed to someone just bumping into him, because he felt the virtue flow from him into another, and knew what triggers that flow...a significant amount of Faith. And I believe he wanted that person to (voluntarily) present him/herself, making him/herself available for further comfort. But as to whether or not he knew specifically who it was at the time, I'm not sure. Believe it or not, I think either was possible. Allow me to explain...

I know that sometimes God will give a specific word to be spoken but not say who it is for...allowing us to operate by faith instead of by sight. Would God allow Jesus to operate this way on this occasion? Perhaps... but at this time I don't know the answer to that particular point.

Also, I will volunteer the "why" I think she was healed. She (regardless what any commandment, statute, or priest/scribe said was possible) believed that God loved her enough to heal HER if she were accounted worthy, and she set "touching the hem of his garment" as the signal/sign that she was indeed worthy (despite being 'unclean' due to her issue of blood)... Similar to how Jonathan set a sign as a trigger to believe that God would allow him and his armor-bearer to defeat the Philistines that would come against them, no matter how numerous. 1 Samuel 14:6-12. Once God allowed the fulfilling of her stipulation, she was able to let go of any remaining, hindering unbelief and "believe only".

Regardless of how people want to justify NOT receiving a healing or other miracle, I've learned that if we actually want to RECEIVE a healing/miracle it takes a resolute faith that no matter the odds, God will find a way. And THAT sometimes requires an intermediate step (as was the case with several miracles in the bible) to build the faith of the eventual recipient.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[Guojing]

Guojing,

That's a thought-provoking choice. I'm actually not sure how to choose.

I think Jesus totally knew that someone had touched him in faith, as opposed to someone just bumping into him, because he felt the virtue flow from him into another, and knew what triggers that flow...a significant amount of Faith. And I believe he wanted that person to (voluntarily) present him/herself, making him/herself available for further comfort. But as to whether or not he knew specifically who it was at the time, I'm not sure. Believe it or not, I think either was possible.
Kelby

Good answer, my perspective is that Jesus really did not know who touched him, but he knew that the person had the faith to draw the healing out from him.

That is what I deemed as the law of faith (Romans 3:27). Basically it breaks down to:

1. The woman heard of Jesus Mark 5:27 "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ" (Romans 10:17)
2. The woman believe and kept on speaking Mark 5:28 "For she kept saying, “If only I touch His clothes, I will be healed.” (2 Corinthians 4:13)
3. The woman took corresponding actions to reach out among the crowd to touch Jesus "Faith without works is dead" (James 2)

That, to me, is the law of faith.

 

[Angela53510]

How do you know salvation is part of the atonement then? Can you prove to anyone out there that you are indeed saved?

Are you really that dumb? The first prophecy of a coming Messiah is in Genesis 3. The last mention of Christ is in Revelation 22.

The entire OT is a prophecy about the coming Messiah. The NT even uses the name of Jesus to show he will bring salvation.

"She will give birth to a son and you will name him Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.” 22 This all happened so that what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet would be fulfilled: 23 “Look! The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will name him Emmanuel,” which means “God with us.” Matt 1:21-23

As for salvation being part of the atonement, there are many verses which prove this.

"My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin.) But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous One, 2 and he himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for our sins but also for the whole world.: 1 John 2:1-2


Now, as to if I am saved or not, that is between me and God. As for you, I have yet to see you post a single Bible verse in this entire thread. I know you have no Bible knowledge at all. I would urge you to get a Bible you can read, and read it from cover to cover, over and over. Three chapters of the OT daily and one chapter of the NT daily, will get you though the Bible in a year.

Again, I urge you to read the Bible. And learn who God is, and what the atonement is about. It is all right there, in the Bible. No need for YouTube videos, or strange teachins by false teachers.