So if Joel 1:15 and Joel 2:1 says the "day of the Lord is at hand" then Jesus second coming was in the 8th,9th century bc?
Jesus is not coming back. He already did in 70 A.D.
- Thread starter Roku23
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I think I've mentioned to you in our past discussions, that I don't have a problem with this because I see those words (you are pointing out in blue/bold) as pertaining to the "I fell at His feet as dead" (like Daniel did, when receiving a certain "vision" in Daniel 10:4-9), and his instruction to "WRITE," so that these words (you are pointing out in blue/bold) refer specifically John receiving this particular prophecy ("[The] Revelation of Jesus Christ, which GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [Jesus], TO SHEW UNTO His servants [comp. 7:3] things which must come to pass [comp. 4:1] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"), and that of his (John's) "writing" of it: verse 1:19 "WRITE"
([things] "hast seen" ..."are"...and "shall be HEREAFTER")
lol,I like the way it words it here https://biblehub.com/interlinear/joel/2-1.htm it makes it sound as if it's without delay(must be how God sees time from an eternal point of view)...
Agree with the point you are making here. This is how "prophecy" works (as I see it).
The issue is this ,,,
If someone receives the mark in Revelation 13:14-18 and worships the image then they are "spiritually dead" but will "physically be killed" in Revelation 19:21,,,
In Revelation 13:15 those who worship the image are not killed but are spiritually dead until Revelation 19:21 but those who don't worship the image are physically killed by the beast. So they are physically(literally) killed by the beast for not worshiping the image.
So from the scriptures it explains it's self that the mark and the image is not an spiritual implication by showing that the beast himself will physically kill those that dont worship the image and that the ones who do will be physically killed in Rev.19:21(it's literal not spiritual)...
If someone receives the mark in Revelation 13:14-18 and worships the image then they are "spiritually dead" but will "physically be killed" in Revelation 19:21,,,
In Revelation 13:15 those who worship the image are not killed but are spiritually dead until Revelation 19:21 but those who don't worship the image are physically killed by the beast. So they are physically(literally) killed by the beast for not worshiping the image.
So from the scriptures it explains it's self that the mark and the image is not an spiritual implication by showing that the beast himself will physically kill those that dont worship the image and that the ones who do will be physically killed in Rev.19:21(it's literal not spiritual)...
Jesus says in Rev 3:9 that the Jews were a synagogue of Satan. In the gospels He said their father was the devil to the Pharisees and Sadducees. We know that Satan gave His power to the beast. The beast is portrayed as Rome but is also portrayed as individuals like Nero (and perhaps others) in the book of Revelation.
We also see that Mystery Babylon - Jerusalem - rides the beast which is Rome. Using it's power to persecute the Christians and kill some of them including Jesus.
If the Jews father was the devil then they worshiped the beast too since the devil gave His power to the beast. Yes, the Jews revolted. The book of Revelation tells us that lots of lying spirits went out to deceive and gather them for the battle of "Armageddon". That is a spiritual battle in Revelation to destroy all God's enemies. That means the principaliies and powers, the devil, and the Jews to name a few.
Read Ezekiel 8 and 9 about the first temple destruction. Ezekiel is shown a vision with lots of abominations which led to the first temples destruction. I am sure something similar happened in 65-70 A.D. The Abomination of Desolation.
Once again, I would recommend not getting hung up on every detail that you can't explain and neither can I. The time framework that follows makes things clear:
1. Dan 9 gives us the 70 weeks prophecy. This is all the time left for the Jews and their holy city. Dan 10, 11, 12 gives us details that will happen during that 70 weeks and Daniel 12 is the end of that 70 weeks that ends with the coming of the messiah and the destruction of the city and temple.
2. Dan 12: 1 is the sister text to Matt 24: 21. This is the Great Tribulation in the mid to late 60's A.D.
3. Dan 12: 2 is the resurrection and judgment. The sister text is Matt 24: 30-31 and Matt 25: 31-46. Jesus says all the things in Matt 24 & 25 would happen in His generation in Matt 24: 34.
4. Rev 1: 1,3 and Rev 22: 6,7,10,12 and 20 tell you a total of 7 times these things will shortly come to pass. That means everything in the book. Rev 22: 6 didn't say "some" things but "these things". The only fair, exegetical way to read that is that it means everything in the book.
5. Luke 21: 31-32 says that when you see these things know that the kingdom of God is near and Jesus restricts it to His generation. That kingdom is the new heavens and new earth. Christ's kingdom which He brought with Him in 70 A.D. The new heavens and new earth is not a literal place. Read Isa 65: 1-16. God is complaining about apostate Israel and getting rid of them and calling His servants by a new name. This is the context of Isa 65: 17-18. The new heavens and earth is the New Jerusalem and her people who are a joy. That is what you see described also in Rev 21 & 22.
6. Matt 16: 27-28 say Jesus will return in His generation and will reward everyone according to their works. That is the judgment and resurrection. The parallel texts are Mark 8: 38-9:1 and Luke 9: 26-27.
7. Matt 10: 17-23 talks about Him coming back in His generation as well. Some of the details in that passage are about after the gospel has already gone to the Gentiles so it can't be Jesus just following behind the disciples as futurists try to claim. The things described in this passage are after His ascension and are referring to His return with the kingdom.
This post is too long so I will stop here. Hopefully this is helpful.
Matthew 24:3 uses strongs #165 "age" in the specific question ask. A Jewish person in 1st century ad much like their fathers before them used the Hebrew calendar, (hence this is 5779) because they are counting off the 6000 years(six days) from Genesis 2:4(tolodot/tolodoth) or six ages/generations.(So Matthew 24:34 is a direct answer to Matthew 24:3) hence,"...and the end of this age/ this generation/age shall not end till.." https://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/24-3.htm
This is why the Jews wrote about the millennialism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennialism in their writings befre and after the 1st century. It is like saying "cool" in ad70 meant it was'nt hot but today cool means something different. In the same the Jewish and Christians wrote many writings and used this tolodot/millenialsm concept of age=millennial=generation=aeon so how they would have seen "age" or "generation" in the Olivet discourse is whats important and not how we apply it today(meaning 40's 50's 60's generation) ect.
You didn't address wars 2, Jewish revolt coins ect...
Right out of the gate you mis-quote Revelation 3:9 to say that "the Jews were a synagogue of Satan," but the text actually states that "those who SAY/DECLARING THEMSELVES to be Jews and ARE NOT, but DO LIE" (this tells me that those "SAYING/DECLARING THEMSELVES to be Jews but ARE NOT" has to be some who do not agree with God's definition of "Jews" [i.e. how we see Scripture itself defining it]).
John's statements regarding the mark etc are quite enigmatic - consider:
Rev 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
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Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
John states Babylon is fallen and the statement follows with the worshipers of the beasty receiving "the mark".
If we accept that Babylon is 1st century Jerusalem that fell then this places those receiving the mark of the beast in that time frame as it logically follows whether or not we can identify the mark or the beast or make head nor tail of what John says in regards to them.
Did you happen to see my question (regarding this ^ ) I posed to Roku23/OP-poster, in my Post #341 (top of pg 18) of this thread? How would you address that question?
[not to mention, do you happen to see my Posts #290 and #296, also
]"Fair"? Verses 1:1 and 22:6 both use the NOUN "IN QUICKNESS" ("shortly" is an ADVERB, NOT a NOUN). Then, the phrase "things which must come to pass" (v.1) is speaking of that which ALSO 4:1 speaks of (that is, the "FUTURE" aspects of the Book)… THAT is the portion/aspect that must come to pass "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (not the other aspects of the Book, per Rev1:19). I.e. in the 7-yr period leading UP TO His Second Coming to the earth, and starting with SEAL #1, when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" ("man of sin be revealed," et al)
Mark & Luke's versions of the Olivet Discourse ask 2 questions: When will these things be? (Destruction of the temple buildings) and What is the sign it is about to take place? Are you saying Matthew's version contradicts Mark & Luke's?
The questions in Matthew 24: 3 that look like 3 questions - When will these things be? What is the sign of your coming? And the end of the age? - are the same 2 questions of Mark and Luke. Otherwise Scripture would contradict itself.
The first question is the same in all 3 synoptics: When will these things be? (destruction of the temple)
The second question in Mark & Luke: What is the SIGN it is about to be fulfilled? = The second and third question of Matt: What is the SIGN of your coming and the end of the age?
Christ's coming is the SIGN that the temple destruction is about to be fulfilled and end the Jewish age. Scripture is not contradicting itself. Matthew, Mark and Luke have the same 2 questions. The Jewish age ended with the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.
The destruction of the temple and Jerusalem was the end of the Old Covenant and the establishing of Christ's kingdom that He brought with Him from the Father.
The only thing that should matter is how Jesus used the word for "generation". All 22 times He used it in the Scriptures outside the Olivet Discourse He always applied it to His contemporaries. Any claim that is contrary to that is arguing against Scripture.
I gave good reasons in post #409 why the Jews worshiped the beast. They may not have worshiped the beast in the way that you want to see it but Scripture makes it clear they did on a spiritual level. They even said to Pontius Pilate, "We have no king but Caesar!"
They may have hated Rome but that evil generation of Jews hated everyone that wasn't them. That is perfectly in line with worshiping the devil and if they worshiped him then they worshiped the beast too since Satan gave his power to the beast.
I wouldn't invalidate a biblical timeline that says the same thing in dozens of Scriptures because we don't understand an apocalyptic verse in Revelation to our liking. We need to establish doctrine from the clear verses and try to figure out the ambiguous ones from there if we can.
^ Yeah, my Posts #290 and #296 (mentioned at the bottom of my last post) speaks to the chronology/sequence issues of the Olivet Discourse. When the disciples asked Him the Q in Matt24:3 (re: "the end [singular] of the age [singular]"), He had already spoken to them about that in Matthew 13:24,30,39,40,49-50 (when the angels will "REAP" [wheat harvest, etc]). And He had already referred to "the age [singular] to come" in the previous chpt, in 12:32, which they RIGHTLY understood to be meaning [what WE call] their "promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom"... they understood WHAT it was, they just did not understand the TIMING of it (per their Q of Him even after His "40 days" of being seen of them [and "speaking to them" of same] FOLLOWING His resurrection, per Acts 1:3,6)
This is somewhat erroneous, John's "which must shortly come to pass" is related to "the things which shall be hereafter"
Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;