Rapture

[Absolutely]

So you believe rapture after antichrist but before tribulation?

Right at the start of ac and trib.
One of the the 4 horsemen is the ac

 

[Absolutely]

Correct, except that the great tribulation is now and the faithfuls are being slaughtered right now - it has been since the 1st century and will go on until the end of age basically until their predetermined number is accomplished as per the scriptures.

The number is fulfilled at the start of the gt.
We are not yet there.
One of the 4 horsemen is the ac.
The church age will be over at the pretrib rapture and his AC's slaughter of left behind christians refusing the mark.

The gt is Jacobs/Israel's trouble.
The bride is gentile
She is harvested.
The Lord now turns to the Jew.
144k are firstfruit Jews.
Those harvested in rev 14 are "second fruits" Jews. Messianic Jews.

All to the marriage supper. In heaven

 

[Absolutely]

Am going to start one called RESURRECTION. I will just write one word and let people go on for pages and pages about it.

Why doesnt everyone do this? Lol

No death,no resurrection

 

[Absolutely]

I am not sure If Paul baptizing the dead. What is the reason baptizing for the dead.

It may, happen, the same people that do not believe in resurection, but they baptizing the death.

Paul may only say those people inconsistance, not believe in resurection but baptizing the death.

Ok,Paul is only saying they Did that.
(Right or wrong is not addressed) but the context is CORRECTION,or maybe they do it erroneously, and not under heaven's approval. No teaching supports baptism of the dead by proxy

Paul is saying " what is the point?"
IOW, water baptism depicts resurrection. So therefore there IS A RESURRECTION.

 

[Noose]

The number is fulfilled at the start of the gt- not possible, it is through the gt that the number of killed is achieved.
We are not yet there- Oh yes, we are right in the storm
One of the 4 horsemen is the ac- No, the antichrist is not even a man because the fight is against principalities and powers and not flesh and blood.
The church age will be over at the pretrib rapture and his AC's slaughter of left behind christians refusing the mark- Rev 14:13 says those things started at around 1st century and not future.

The gt is Jacobs/Israel's trouble- Yeah but Jacob's trouble means Church's trouble because the word Jew is defined in Rom 2:28
The bride is gentile-there's neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female
She is harvested- Harvest means death (Rev 14:14), painful death/sharp sickle
The Lord now turns to the Jew-there's neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female
144k are firstfruit Jews-Definition of a Jew- Rom 2:28
Those harvested in rev 14 are "second fruits" Jews. Messianic Jews- there's neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female

All to the marriage supper. In heaven- heaven is actually on earth (Heb 12:18-24)

 

[Noose]

Ok,Paul is only saying they Did that.
(Right or wrong is not addressed) but the context is CORRECTION,or maybe they do it erroneously, and not under heaven's approval. No teaching supports baptism of the dead by proxy

Paul is saying " what is the point?"
IOW, water baptism depicts resurrection. So therefore there IS A RESURRECTION.

Paul doesn't use an erroneous practice to support the fact of resurrection, so the underlying belief for the baptism for the dead was true and that's why Paul used it for his resurrection argument. Baptism for the dead doesn't mean baptism of proxies. It is up to you to realign your beliefs about resurrection to the scripture and not throw out parts of the scriptures so that your beliefs become true.

 

[Lanolin]

Am waiting for my resurrection thread to be raised to life.

 

[garee]

Am waiting for my resurrection thread to be raised to life.

Must be still taking a nap.LOL

 

[Jackson123]

Right at the start of ac and trib.
One of the the 4 horsemen is the ac

I believe These verse say after tribulation, or in the end of tribulation

Matthew 24:29-30 King James Version (KJV)
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

[Absolutely]

I believe These verse say after tribulation, or in the end of tribulation

Matthew 24:29-30 King James Version (KJV)
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

He does come back after the trib.
That is not the rapture
We see in the dialog of the last supper that we are going to homes in heaven.
He takes his bride to heaven.
Those embracing a post trib rapture model believe the church NEVER goes to heaven.
Yet another post trib rapture misconception.

 

[Absolutely]

Paul doesn't use an erroneous practice to support the fact of resurrection, so the underlying belief for the baptism for the dead was true and that's why Paul used it for his resurrection argument. Baptism for the dead doesn't mean baptism of proxies. It is up to you to realign your beliefs about resurrection to the scripture and not throw out parts of the scriptures so that your beliefs become true.

Ok,show me the doctrine of baptism for the dead.

 

[Noose]

Ok,show me the doctrine of baptism for the dead.

Don't you know Catholics baptize for the dead? They baptize children and give them new names adopted from dead saints, like saint Peter/ saint Paul/ saint John blah blah blah. And they base their baptism doctrine on:

2 Peter 1:12So I will always remind you of these things, even though you know them and are firmly established in the truth you now have. 13I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body,14because I know that I will soon put it aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. 15And I will make every effort to see that after my departure you will always be able to remember these things.

Peter was saying that his efforts go beyond the grave because the real doctrine of resurrection is that the resurrected believers indwell the living believers.


Paul taught the same thing here:

2 Cor 4:
12So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you.

13It is written: “I believed; therefore I have spoken.” b Since we have that same spirit of c faith, we also believe and therefore speak, 14because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you to himself. 15All this is for your benefit, so that the grace that is reaching more and more people may cause thanksgiving to overflow to the glory of God.

 

[Jackson123]

He does come back after the trib.
That is not the rapture
We see in the dialog of the last supper that we are going to homes in heaven.
He takes his bride to heaven.
Those embracing a post trib rapture model believe the church NEVER goes to heaven.
Yet another post trib rapture misconception.

When the rapture happen He is oN the cloud

And matt 24 talk about He is in the cloud

If you believe matt 24 is second coming and 2thes rapture than Jesus come oN the cloud twice.

I believe matt is rapture and second coming, they are happen in the same time

2 Thessalonians 2 King James Version (KJV)
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

 

[Jackson123]

Ok,Paul is only saying they Did that.
(Right or wrong is not addressed) but the context is CORRECTION,or maybe they do it erroneously, and not under heaven's approval. No teaching supports baptism of the dead by proxy

Paul is saying " what is the point?"
IOW, water baptism depicts resurrection. So therefore there IS A RESURRECTION.

Yep, Paul not teach to baptized the death

 

[Absolutely]

When the rapture happen He is oN the cloud

And matt 24 talk about He is in the cloud

If you believe matt 24 is second coming and 2thes rapture than Jesus come oN the cloud twice.

I believe matt is rapture and second coming, they are happen in the same time

2 Thessalonians 2 King James Version (KJV)
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

The rapture is the gathering of the bride.
But besides that,we see another rapture in rev 14. By one (Jesus) on a cloud.
That alone destroys postrib,because the dead rise first. ( you cant have a second rapture at the end of the trib,and call it 1 thes 4)

 

[Absolutely]

And, Paul in defending his teachings of resurrection uses a first century practice of 'baptizing for the dead' which according to him is totally ok because of the underlying belief. Paul asks:

1 Cor 15:29 Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour?

We can easily tell that this group's practice does not stem from the idea that resurrection is miles in the future (21st century and counting), they believed that resurrection was first approaching and in their life time (before they died) and they baptised people in the name of old saints like Abraham/ Jacob/ Isaac/Moses believing that these saints will resurrect and indwell and guide them - more like Catholics, only difference is that Catholics baptize young ones.

And Paul is asking, if there's no resurrection, what will they do? they were just wasting there time if there was no resurrection. Paul is saying, they did not waste their time because resurrection is a fact, not a future fact but a continuous one from some point in the late 1st century.

Oh wait.
Are you trying to make a preterist case in the baptism for the dead idea?
If so,that really makes it out in left field as preterism should have died long ago.

 

[Jackson123]

The rapture is the gathering of the bride.
But besides that,we see another rapture in rev 14. By one (Jesus) on a cloud.
That alone destroys postrib,because the dead rise first. ( you cant have a second rapture at the end of the trib,and call it 1 thes 4)

How The dead rise first post trib?

Both the rise of the dead and rapture of the living can happen after tribulation.

 

[ewq1938]

How The dead rise first post trib?

Both the rise of the dead and rapture of the living can happen after tribulation.

Yes that is accurate according to Paul:

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: (the second coming) and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)

Since the resurrection only happens at the second coming and that we have the rapture happening AFTER the resurrection and second coming means these two verses decisively prove the pre-trib rapture to be false.

 

[Absolutely]

How The dead rise first post trib?

Both the rise of the dead and rapture of the living can happen after tribulation.

Only if rev 14 is removed grom the bible.
Post trib rapture REQUIRES the dead to rise AFTER the living.

 

[Absolutely]

Yes that is accurate according to Paul:

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: (the second coming) and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)

Since the resurrection only happens at the second coming and that we have the rapture happening AFTER the resurrection and second coming means these two verses decisively prove the pre-trib rapture to be false.

Well,remove rev 14 and .....poooof! Your deal has traction.
Well,actually,i can prove post trib false wothout rev 14.
Rev 14 so decisively destroys post trib rapture,it takes all the fun out.