Not By Works

[FollowHisSteps]

I can't recall you asking me the first question.
Further more you ask questions of me.
Obviously you do not know me and have not read my posts of past as you are new here.

But if you had done then I'm sure you would not have asked those questions.

Hi Bill, sorry it read wrong, I was asking anyone, do you believe Jesus can transform you into His likeness?

It seems rather than a resounding, ofcourse, He died and rose again that I might be like Him, the
answer is no.

I wonder how many know this form of theology, as put forward by the Nazarene church pietist movement.
Is it dangerous to believe God can do what He promised and make us perfect so we can enter heaven?

Or is this only after we die, sinner to saint? Normally people say yes after we die, but partly before.
Seems like even this idea of some work is a bridge too far.

Has the idea of obedience become earning salvation so embedded, it is the enemy?
I ask simply because I can, and the Lord has blessed me so much, I rejoice in His blessing, Praise the Lord.

 

[VCO]

GodsGrace101 said:

Could you please post some scripture that says we are to fall at Jesus feet instead of being transformed into His likeness?



Matthew 2:11 (KJV)
11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped Him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.

Job 1:20 (ASV)
20 Then Job arose, and rent his robe, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped;


2 Chronicles 29:27-29 (NJB)
27 Hezekiah ordered the burnt offering to be presented on the altar. And as the burnt offering began, the hymns of Yahweh began too, and the trumpets sounded, to the accompaniment of the instruments of David king of Israel,
28 while the whole congregation worshipped, the singers singing and the trumpeters sounding the trumpets, continuously until the burnt offering was over.
29 When the burnt offering was finished, the king and all those present with him fell to their knees and worshipped.

Mark 5:33-34 (NIV)
33 Then the woman, knowing what had happened to her, came and fell at his feet and, trembling with fear, told him the whole truth.
34 He said to her, "Daughter, your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be freed from your suffering."

Mark 5:5-8 (KJV)
5 And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones.
6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,
7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.
8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.

Revelation 5:13-14 (ASV)
13 And every created thing which is in the heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and all things are in them, heard I saying, Unto him that sitteth on the throne, and unto the Lamb, be the blessing, and the honor, and the glory, and the dominion, for ever and ever.
14 And the four living creatures said, Amen. And the elders fell down and worshipped.

Revelation 7:11 (ASV)
11 And all the angels were standing round about the throne, and about the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

Revelation 11:16 (ASV)
16 And the four and twenty elders, who sit before God on their thrones, fell upon their faces and worshipped God,

Revelation 19:4 (ASV)
4 And the four and twenty elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshipped God that sitteth on the throne, saying, Amen; Hallelujah.

Judith 6:18-19 (NJB)
18 At this the people fell to the ground and worshipped God.
19 ‘Lord God of heaven,' they cried, ‘take notice of their arrogance and have pity on the humiliation of our race. Look kindly today on those who are consecrated to you.'


So now you have decided it is beneath your dignity or you are too proud, to fall down and worship GOD.


AMAZING.

 

[UnderGrace]

Jesus says this about us in revelation

To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.
Rev 3:21

Dear UnderGrace, If Jesus says we who overcome will sit with Him on His throne, do you not know Him.

It is sad to hear you believe for Jesus to make us like Him is heresy. It is His promise of heaven.

There heresy is thinking that your flesh is being redeemed and you are being made perfect.....smh

 

[GodsGrace101]

If you are not perfect like Jesus then you have a problem.

“A little leaven leavens the whole lump.” (Gal. 5:9)

The whole of the Law has been fulfilled we live in and through Him, it is internal now, not external.

Human effort for salvation is self-righteousness and the antithesis and contrary to grace.

Now to him who WORKS, the wages are NOT counted as grace but as DEBT! But to him who does NOT work but BELIEVES in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness.” (Rom. 4:3-5, NKJV)

Romans 4:3-5
4Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
5But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,


Please notice that verse 5 states that those that do not work but BELIEVE in HIM
WHO JUSTIFIES the UNGODLY.......

This is what I've been saying all along....

1. We must believe in HIM (God) who JUSTIFIES the ungodly....

When we are still ungodly....GOD JUSTIFIES US.
This is a work of God in which we have no part.
He restores our relationship by HIS decree, by JUSTIFYING us.

You have a problem with what happens AFTER Justification.

 

[UnderGrace]

I know and I am absolutely convinced one cannot live a life of victory if they think being a follower is for salvation.

The above seems to be saying, Jesus cannot help us to victory.

Not what I stated.

 

[GodsGrace101]

GodsGrace101 said:

Could you please post some scripture that says we are to fall at Jesus feet instead of being transformed into His likeness?



Matthew 2:11 (KJV)
11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped Him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.

Job 1:20 (ASV)
20 Then Job arose, and rent his robe, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped;


2 Chronicles 29:27-29 (NJB)
27 Hezekiah ordered the burnt offering to be presented on the altar. And as the burnt offering began, the hymns of Yahweh began too, and the trumpets sounded, to the accompaniment of the instruments of David king of Israel,
28 while the whole congregation worshipped, the singers singing and the trumpeters sounding the trumpets, continuously until the burnt offering was over.
29 When the burnt offering was finished, the king and all those present with him fell to their knees and worshipped.

Mark 5:33-34 (NIV)
33 Then the woman, knowing what had happened to her, came and fell at his feet and, trembling with fear, told him the whole truth.
34 He said to her, "Daughter, your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be freed from your suffering."

Mark 5:5-8 (KJV)
5 And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones.
6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,
7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.
8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.

Revelation 5:13-14 (ASV)
13 And every created thing which is in the heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and all things are in them, heard I saying, Unto him that sitteth on the throne, and unto the Lamb, be the blessing, and the honor, and the glory, and the dominion, for ever and ever.
14 And the four living creatures said, Amen. And the elders fell down and worshipped.

Revelation 7:11 (ASV)
11 And all the angels were standing round about the throne, and about the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

Revelation 11:16 (ASV)
16 And the four and twenty elders, who sit before God on their thrones, fell upon their faces and worshipped God,

Revelation 19:4 (ASV)
4 And the four and twenty elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshipped God that sitteth on the throne, saying, Amen; Hallelujah.

Judith 6:18-19 (NJB)
18 At this the people fell to the ground and worshipped God.
19 ‘Lord God of heaven,' they cried, ‘take notice of their arrogance and have pity on the humiliation of our race. Look kindly today on those who are consecrated to you.'


So now you have decided it is beneath your dignity or you are too proud, to fall down and worship GOD.


AMAZING.

Does God want us to fall at His feet...
or does He want us to become a changed person.
That was the choice.

The above is speaking about worshipping God.
If we worship God,,,,does that mean that we also emulate Him?
Or not?

That's a one-word answer...which I know won't be forthcoming.

 

[UnderGrace]

Thank you, you obviously have more patience than me at this moment to find and post them!!

GodsGrace101 said:

Could you please post some scripture that says we are to fall at Jesus feet instead of being transformed into His likeness?



Matthew 2:11 (KJV)
11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped Him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.

Job 1:20 (ASV)
20 Then Job arose, and rent his robe, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped;


2 Chronicles 29:27-29 (NJB)
27 Hezekiah ordered the burnt offering to be presented on the altar. And as the burnt offering began, the hymns of Yahweh began too, and the trumpets sounded, to the accompaniment of the instruments of David king of Israel,
28 while the whole congregation worshipped, the singers singing and the trumpeters sounding the trumpets, continuously until the burnt offering was over.
29 When the burnt offering was finished, the king and all those present with him fell to their knees and worshipped.

Mark 5:33-34 (NIV)
33 Then the woman, knowing what had happened to her, came and fell at his feet and, trembling with fear, told him the whole truth.
34 He said to her, "Daughter, your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be freed from your suffering."

Mark 5:5-8 (KJV)
5 And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones.
6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,
7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.
8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.

Revelation 5:13-14 (ASV)
13 And every created thing which is in the heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and all things are in them, heard I saying, Unto him that sitteth on the throne, and unto the Lamb, be the blessing, and the honor, and the glory, and the dominion, for ever and ever.
14 And the four living creatures said, Amen. And the elders fell down and worshipped.

Revelation 7:11 (ASV)
11 And all the angels were standing round about the throne, and about the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

Revelation 11:16 (ASV)
16 And the four and twenty elders, who sit before God on their thrones, fell upon their faces and worshipped God,

Revelation 19:4 (ASV)
4 And the four and twenty elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshipped God that sitteth on the throne, saying, Amen; Hallelujah.

Judith 6:18-19 (NJB)
18 At this the people fell to the ground and worshipped God.
19 ‘Lord God of heaven,' they cried, ‘take notice of their arrogance and have pity on the humiliation of our race. Look kindly today on those who are consecrated to you.'


So now you have decided it is beneath your dignity or you are too proud, to fall down and worship GOD.


AMAZING.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

There heresy is thinking that your flesh is being redeemed and you are being made perfect.....smh

So my soul, who I am cannot be redeemed? Are you separating our physical reality from our essence or spirit?
I can conceive of this idea, but we appear to be 100% physical beings with a spirit and soul, so it is a job lot.

Gnostics think of a duality, and some do have this kind of faith, where their body is replaced with a different
physicality, rather than a upgrade. I go with the upgrade approach.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Are people saying in heaven we are not going to be like Jesus, perfect, transformed and rejoicing?

I am looking for the vote for transformation to a new state in heaven.
I am then looking for how transformative are we on earth.

The apostles seemed to be hoping for full perfection on earth as far as we can, so we can be described
as holy, pure and blameless.

The last question would then be how.

Salvation effects this, because the theories of body, soul, spirit earth and heaven present effect the
ideas about transformation, when and how. You literally cannot separate them as one flows through
to the other.

Lastly if Jesus meant if you believe in the Son, it meant He can make you into His likeness,
then to be an unbeliever is to compromise on this transformation.

This is heavy stuff, but also liberating. I rejoice that God promises to change me, because I am not
a happy person staying as I am. Are you?

 

[UnderGrace]

Actually it you that has the problem with what happens after justification.

In your dogma justification is not enough for salvation, which is completely absurd.

Romans 5:9
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Romans 4:3-5
4Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
5But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,


Please notice that verse 5 states that those that do not work but BELIEVE in HIM
WHO JUSTIFIES the UNGODLY.......

This is what I've been saying all along....

1. We must believe in HIM (God) who JUSTIFIES the ungodly....

When we are still ungodly....GOD JUSTIFIES US.
This is a work of God in which we have no part.
He restores our relationship by HIS decree, by JUSTIFYING us.

You have a problem with what happens AFTER Justification.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Thank you, you obviously have more patience than me at this moment to find and post them!!

He's been answered...
check it out.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Actually it you that has the problem with what happens after justification.

In your dogma justification is not enough for salvation, which is completely absurd.

Romans 5:9
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

I don't have a problem with obeying God.
YOU do.
A worrisome condition indeed.

 

[mailmandan]

1. I agree that we are not yet glorified. You and I are still alive.

2. As to being saved from the penalty of sin....OK...this is one of the atonement theories (Substitution)...I like all of them, I think they're all valid in one way or another.

3. Being saved from the power of sin: Agreed.
Maybe we can get some verses on this?:

We were saved:
Romans 8:24
Ephesians 2:5-8

We are being saved:
1 Corinthians 1:8
2 Corinthians 2:15
Philippians 2:12

We will be saved:
Romans 5:9-10
1 Corinthians 3:12-15

We are also told to work out our salvation:
Philippians 2:12

And to confidently hope in the promise of Jesus.
Romans 5:2
2 Timothy 2:11-13

4. Yes. I believe, and Christian doctrine (in every denomination I know of) teaches that we are saved by faith and not by any self-righteous works. Jesus said we must be born from above. John 3:3
This is an act of God....by grace through faith...and we have no part in it except to believe.

And Yes to the second part of your question except I would remove the word you used "merit".
God doesn't need us. What could we possibly merit? God wants our heart...

I think Proverbs 23:26 says it all:
My son, give me thine heart, and let thine eyes observe my ways.

WE give our heart to God and then we observe HIS ways and do what HE would want us to do and follow His commandments.

The visible change in us and our love for God will be the demonstration that the Holy Spirit is dwelling within us.

I would go so far as to say that if there is no change...I would question the validity of the "acceptance" of Jesus as Lord and Savior.

5. Your last questions are rather silly and I won't reply to them.
How MUCH FAITH do YOU need to get saved???? (see...they make no sense).

You made some valid points that I agree with in this post. In regards to my last questions, how are they silly? If salvation was based on the merits of our performance, then there must be a line drawn in the sand on how well we must perform or in other words, what is the passing grade?

Since God’s standard is perfection, there is only one way to obtain the righteousness that is needed to obtain salvation (Romans 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9).

In regards to faith, it’s about the object of our faith/having the right kind of faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation? We must trust 100% in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. (Romans 3:22-28)

 

[UnderGrace]

I don't have a problem with obeying God.
YOU do.
A worrisome condition indeed.

Wrong again.

You obey God from compulsion, for fear you will loose salvation.

If an action is for gain, then it is not free and it is not of love!

You cannot have it both ways.

 

[GodsGrace101]

You made some valid points that I agree with in this post. In regards to my last questions, how are they silly? If salvation was based on the merits of our performance, then there must be a line drawn in the sand on how well we must perform or in other words, what is the passing grade?

Since God’s standard is perfection, there is only one way to obtain the righteousness that is needed to obtain salvation (Romans 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9).

In regards to faith, it’s about the object of our faith/having the right kind of faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation? We must trust 100% in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. (Romans 3:22-28)

They're silly Dan, because I don't know WHERE in the N.T. it states we have to be perfect.
You know very well that in Mathew 5:48 Jesus didn't mean that we're to be perfect like Father...only God is perfect. Jesus was talking about loving others.. He wants us to love others as God loves us. We're made in God's image and we should live out this image. If we love others, it covers all the commandments, as Jesus taught in the Two Great Commandments.

I don't know if this is a strawman argument since I'm not sure what it means....but it's some kind of fallacy, that's for sure. I am NOT required to be perfect. Even under the law man was not perfect and yet they were saved by faith....and I am NOT under the law but under grace.

If you insist that God's standard is perfection....please post some scripture so I could address it. I don't know of any.

Just answered UG regarding Romans 4:5-6
4Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
5But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

This is speaking to Justification. The ungodly cannot earn salvation, it is a work of God ONLY...
So, the faith of the ungodly justifies him. Faith saved in the O.T. and it saves in the N.T.

The line in the sand? This is silly. Here's what I like to say:
We do our best....
Jesus does the rest.

I asked you how much faith saves to show how silly it is to ask how many works save. Same thing.
Faith as a mustard seed...

I don't know what you mean by the "right" kind of faith.
You have faith in Jesus
or you don't.
Faith is faith.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Wrong again.

You obey God from compulsion, for fear you will loose salvation.

If an action is for gain, then it is not free and it is not of love!

You cannot have it both ways.

How do you know why I obey God?
How do you know if I fear Him?

If I were you,,,,I'd have fear simply because I think you don't like obeying God or you wouldn't speak as you do.

I thank you for leaving my personal life out of these discussions and stick to talking about scripture.

 

[Argueless]

you sound REMARKABLY like these guys!:

Romans 3:8 New King James Version (NKJV)
8 And why not say, “Let us do evil that good may come”?—as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their [a]condemnation is just.

It's all over this thread. The deception is very obvious

Paul was worried that some of them may be deceived just like eve was deceived.

...But I AM AFRAID that just as Eve was DECEIVED by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be LED ASTRAY from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 2 Corinthians 11:3

The truth is that the deceiver has been deceiving from the beginning until now.

These deceivers will REJECT and NULLIFY the Word and believe the deceiving spirits.(Isaiah 5:20-24, Mark 7:6-13)

...while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 2 Timothy 3:13

...THE SPIRIT CLEARLY SAYS that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through HYPOCRITICAL LIARS, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 1 Timothy 4:1-2

How would we know who were the ones that were deceived?

We know that Eve was deceived when she believed the deceiver and disobeyed God's command.

Who are the deceivers and who were deceived?

..But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18 They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19 These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.

...At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. Matthew 24:10‭-‬14‭, ‬24

...For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve. 2 Corinthians 11:13‭-‬15

And those that were deceived believed in the deceivers mentioned above and disobeyed God's commands because they were made to believe that they would not surely die, IOW, "always saved". But scriptures warn us not to be deceived;

...Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them. Ephesians 5:6‭-‬7

...Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?” The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’ ” “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”... Genesis 3:1‭-‬19

Just think what could have happened if Eve did not believe the serpents deception but OBEYED God instead. ...NO NEED TO DISCUSS SALVATION FOR SURE because no one needs to be saved.

The truth is that Adam and Eve were created according to the image of God's righteousness and holiness and they BELIEVE and OBEY God until they got DECEIVED and disobeyed God. If they were deceived, why can't you?

Did God warn us about the deception? If He did, then why refuse to take heed of them?

So who would say now that OBEDIENCE TO GOD HAS NO BEARING IN SALVATION?

 

[GodsGrace101]

You made some valid points that I agree with in this post. In regards to my last questions, how are they silly? If salvation was based on the merits of our performance, then there must be a line drawn in the sand on how well we must perform or in other words, what is the passing grade?

Since God’s standard is perfection, there is only one way to obtain the righteousness that is needed to obtain salvation (Romans 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9).

In regards to faith, it’s about the object of our faith/having the right kind of faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation? We must trust 100% in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. (Romans 3:22-28)

I forgot about Romans 3:22-28
Just quick...
1. It's speaking about justification.
2. It's speaking about the WORKS OF THE LAW....The Mosaic Law...613 laws.

 

[UnderGrace]

How do you know why I obey God?
How do you know if I fear Him?

If I were you,,,,I'd have fear simply because I think you don't like obeying God or you wouldn't speak as you do.

I thank you for leaving my personal life out of these discussions and stick to talking about scripture.

I made no mention of your personal life. I simply pointed out the difference between your view and mine.

You still believe salvation can be lost right?

 

[GodsGrace101]

I made no mention of your personal life. I simply pointed out the difference between your view and mine.

You still believe salvation can be lost right?

You pointed out WHY I obey God.
You don't KNOW why I obey God...
You can only now what I say on these threads...and I don't speak about myself personally.