Not By Works

[GodsGrace101]

What about the Sabbath? I dont see Paul list that. Paul lists all other of those commandments except the sabbath in Romans somewhere, cant remember where, romans 13:9

There's a problem with the Sabbath.....

The Sabbath is one of the 10 commandments which is why the 7th Day Adventists keep the Sabbath.
They keep this Saturday because they wish to follow the 10 commandments.

Other Christians prefer to celebrate on the 1st day of the week, Sunday, because that's the day that Jesus rose from the dead and they wish to remember this important day.

The 7th day keepers believe we are constantly breaking one of the commandments.
OTOH, we believe that Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath and that the Apostles celebrated on Sunday.

As I've said many times....I don't believe our doctrine will save us but our belief in Jesus....whichever day we choose to celebrate will be accepted by God...He is a loving and merciful and just God and as long as we do our best we will be saved through His mercy.

Would you agree?

 

[mailmandan]

You said the magic word MMD...
PREREQUISITE.

Unfortunately, AFTER salvation,,,there is plenty that Paul taught us....
Have you not read all of the N.T.?

Romans 13:5-14
5Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience’ sake.
6For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing.
7Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.

8Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
9For this, “YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”
10Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

11Do this, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed.
12The night is almost gone, and the day is near. Therefore let us lay aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light.
13Let us behave properly as in the day, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual promiscuity and sensuality, not in strife and jealousy.
14But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh in regard to its lusts.

1. Is this what you mean by prescriptive?
It still means that it is what we're supposed to do.

2. Notice that Paul says we have not obtained salvation yet....but that it is only nearer than when we first believed. This is because we cannot know till our death if we have CONTINUED in the faith.

We have not yet been saved from the PRESENCE OF SIN (glorification) but believers have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification - Romans 5:1)

Remember, there are three tenses to salvation that must not get mixed up. 1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification) 2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification) 3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification)

Do you believe that we are merely "initially" saved by grace through faith, then afterwards, salvation is maintained based on the merits of our performance?

Have you perfectly obeyed everything that you are supposed to do according to all those passages of scripture that you cited? Is that what you are trusting in for salvation? Where do you draw the line in the sand? What is your passing grade?

 

[dcontroversal]

Oy vey!

hahahhaha

 

[NoNameMcgee]

i not only said as far as i can tell or maybe im confused.... they also both gave me a positive reaction....

only trying to keep peace between my brothers

(not that i am needed)

also if you take those verses as Jesus implying you must behave more righteously than the pharisee to be accepted into heaven... youre very mistaken


pay attention to what Jesus says next

He is showing how being blameless before man is not being blameless before Him


(God can see our hearts... these men who thought they were upright according to laws and traditions... had dirty hearts... they needed Jesus and if YOU are seeking for your works to save you... you better not have on blemish on your heart because He sees all)

 

[GodsGrace101]

Did I say we could transform them?
If so then that was not my intent.

My intent was to say that we should be like Jesus.

Not sure why you would bring up no transformation, no salvation.

As I said



Missed out "see" between 'will, transformation'

You obviously did not read correctly.
But FYI, you/me can be part of that transformation.
By being like Jesus.

So why add "No transformation?
As what you said has no bearing on what I posted.

Yes Bill...
The word "see" made the difference!
Sorry, I took it to mean that we would make some difference.

As to transformation and no salvation.
I believe we could see a transformation in persons that have come to know Jesus.

Paul said this:

Galatians 5:22.......
These are the fruit of Holy Spirit.
If we have the Holy Spirit dwelling with us...we will demonstrate these fruit...

22But the fruit of the Spirit is
love,
joy,
peace,
patience,
kindness,
goodness,
faithfulness,23
gentleness,
self-control;
against such things there is no law. 24Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

If there is no demonstration of the Holy Spirit's work...
can we say a person is saved? Paul does not think so.

 

[GodsGrace101]

also if you take those verses as Jesus implying you must behave more righteously than the pharisee to be accepted into heaven... youre very mistaken


pay attention to what Jesus says next

He is showing how being blameless before man is not being blameless before Him

Don't tell me what I think.
I know what Jesus meant.

What do YOU think He meant?

Mathew 5:23

 

[mailmandan]

He believes he keeps the law, obeys the commandments and meets God standards by helping Jesus in his "salvation"

None of us will be justified by the law and none of us have perfectly obeyed all of the commandments and met God’s perfect standard. Christ’s finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Don't tell me what I think.
I know what Jesus meant.

What do YOU think He meant?

Mathew 5:23

If fran....

if...

i am not bestowing you with beliefs you dont own

if it sounded like i did im sorry

but you seem too bitter towards me today

im sorry i corrected what you seemed to imply UG thought in a way that was less than perfect


take a step back and if you want to go over ALL of matthew 5 we can when i have the time

pretty sure i did a break down of matthew 5 6 7 and 8 last year in this thread with benhur (been here lol)

but these stand alone verses or individual words arent something i am willing to go back and forth with you over

leads down rabbit holes and straight into you belittling me (usually) and telling me to read a bible or to study

 

[NoNameMcgee]

If fran....

if...

i am not bestowing you with beliefs you dont own

if it sounded like i did im sorry

but you seem too bitter towards me today

im sorry i corrected what you seemed to imply UG thought in a way that was less than perfect


take a step back and if you want to go over ALL of matthew 5 we can when i have the time

pretty sure i did a break down of matthew 5 6 7 and 8 last year in this thread with benhur (been here lol)

but these stand alone verses or individual words arent something i am willing to go back and forth with you over

leads down rabbit holes and straight into you belittling me (usually) and telling me to read a bible or to study

(we will get to 5:23 after 1-22 lol im sure we will disagree before then)

 

[UnderGrace]

leads down rabbit holes and straight into you belittling me (usually) and telling me to read a bible or to study

Yup.....at least we all are treated the same LOL

 

[Hevosmies]

@Hevosmies is 100% right.....

Marking this one down!

 

[UnderGrace]

None of us will be justified by the law and none of us have perfectly obeyed all of the commandments and met God’s perfect standard. Christ’s finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed.

Amen!!!

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Seriously!!!

We will never be like Him, wow, I guess instead of falling at His feet you prefer to stand up right beside Him!!!

This such heresy, I can no longer respond to you.

Jesus says this about us in revelation

To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.
Rev 3:21

Dear UnderGrace, If Jesus says we who overcome will sit with Him on His throne, do you not know Him.

It is sad to hear you believe for Jesus to make us like Him is heresy. It is His promise of heaven.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

First....my eternal life(salvation) is dependent on the completed work of Jesus on the cross and His resurrection, because of His victory, salvation is assured and cannot be lost.

Second do not confuse sanctification with justification.

Sanctification is living out our justification.

It is quite simple really.

Sad you make it all so complicated.

I am done now, why, because I know your mind is made up and you refuse to see,

I know and I am absolutely convinced one cannot live a life of victory if they think being a follower is for salvation.

I know and I am absolutely convinced one cannot live a life of victory if they think being a follower is for salvation.

The above seems to be saying, Jesus cannot help us to victory.

 

[GodsGrace101]

We have not yet been saved from the PRESENCE OF SIN (glorification) but believers have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification - Romans 5:1)

Remember, there are three tenses to salvation that must not get mixed up. 1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification) 2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification) 3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification)

Do you believe that we are merely "initially" saved by grace through faith, then afterwards, salvation is maintained based on the merits of our performance?

Have you perfectly obeyed everything that you are supposed to do according to all those passages of scripture that you cited? Is that what you are trusting in for salvation? Where do you draw the line in the sand? What is your passing grade?

1. I agree that we are not yet glorified. You and I are still alive.

2. As to being saved from the penalty of sin....OK...this is one of the atonement theories (Substitution)...I like all of them, I think they're all valid in one way or another.

3. Being saved from the power of sin: Agreed.
Maybe we can get some verses on this?:

We were saved:
Romans 8:24
Ephesians 2:5-8

We are being saved:
1 Corinthians 1:8
2 Corinthians 2:15
Philippians 2:12

We will be saved:
Romans 5:9-10
1 Corinthians 3:12-15

We are also told to work out our salvation:
Philippians 2:12

And to confidently hope in the promise of Jesus.
Romans 5:2
2 Timothy 2:11-13


4. Yes. I believe, and Christian doctrine (in every denomination I know of) teaches that we are saved by faith and not by any self-righteous works. Jesus said we must be born from above. John 3:3
This is an act of God....by grace through faith...and we have no part in it except to believe.

And Yes to the second part of your question except I would remove the word you used "merit".
God doesn't need us. What could we possibly merit? God wants our heart...

I think Proverbs 23:26 says it all:
My son, give me thine heart, and let thine eyes observe my ways.

WE give our heart to God and then we observe HIS ways and do what HE would want us to do and follow His commandments.

The visible change in us and our love for God will be the demonstration that the Holy Spirit is dwelling within us.

I would go so far as to say that if there is no change...I would question the validity of the "acceptance" of Jesus as Lord and Savior.


5. Your last questions are rather silly and I won't reply to them.
How MUCH FAITH do YOU need to get saved???? (see...they make no sense).

 

[FollowHisSteps]

I really was not reading his posts before, but now I really know, yes I agree, dangerous ideas.

It is dangerous to believe Jesus can make us like himself, in thought, word and deed.

To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.
"He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth."
When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly.
1 Peter 2:21-23

The way of Jesus is obviously being rejected, yet this way is the way of being a believer.
Now if one is not being a believer, there is no security and no eternal life.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Jesus says this about us in revelation

To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.
Rev 3:21

Dear UnderGrace, If Jesus says we who overcome will sit with Him on His throne, do you not know Him.

It is sad to hear you believe for Jesus to make us like Him is heresy. It is His promise of heaven.

Agreed!
It is sad indeed.

I wonder if @UnderGrace knows all the atonement theories....
One of them is the Moral Influence Theory. There are 6 or 7, if not more.
Here it is:


#1 The Moral Influence Theory
One of the earliest theories for the atonement is the Moral Influence theory, which simply taught that Jesus Christ came and died in order to bring about a positive change to humanity. This moral change comes through the teachings of Jesus alongside His example and actions. The most notable name here is that of Augustine from the 4th century, whose influence has almost single-handedly had the greatest impact upon Western Christianity. He affirmed the Moral Influence theory as the main theory of the Atonement (alongside the Ransom theory as well).

Within this theory the death of Christ is understood as a catalyst to reform society, inspiring men and women to follow His example and live good moral lives of love. In this theory the Holy Spirit comes to help Christians produce this moral change. Logically, in this theory the Eschatological development too becomes about morality, where it is taught that after death the human race will be judged by their conduct in life. This in turn creates a strong emphasis on free will as the human response to follow Jesus’ example. Although Augustine himself differs here in that he did not teach free will, but instead that human beings are incapable of change themselves, and require God to radically alter their lives sovereignly through the Holy Spirit.

This theory focuses on not just the death of Jesus Christ, but on His entire life. This sees the saving work of Jesus not only in the event of the crucifixion, but also in all the words He has spoken, and the example He has set. In this theory the cross is merely a ramification of the moral life of Jesus. He is crucified as a martyr due to the radical nature of His moral example. In this way the Moral Influence theory emphasizes Jesus Christ as our teacher, our example, our founder and leader, and ultimately, as a result, our first martyr.

 

[PennEd]

...Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” These men are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage. A Call to Persevere But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit. Jude 1:14-19

Going back to verse 4 of this chaprer we will see who these things are referred to, the people who DIVIDE you by saying that FAITH ALONE saves even though James clearly said that it is not by FAITH ALONE(James 2:24) and Jesus with all the apostles who heard and preached OBEDIENCE as He instructed them to do (Matthew 28:18-20).

...For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, WHO CHANGE THE GRACE OF GOD INTO A LICENSE FOR IMMORALITY and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. Jude 1:4

Who are those who change the grace of God into a license for immorality? They are the ones WHO DIVIDE YOU, who do not have the Spirit because if they do, the Spirit will surely lead them to desire to OBEY GOD.

you sound REMARKABLY like these guys!:

Romans 3:8 New King James Version (NKJV)
8 And why not say, “Let us do evil that good may come”?—as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their [a]condemnation is just.

 

[UnderGrace]

Nobody said anything about keeping anything perfectly.

If you are not perfect like Jesus then you have a problem.

“A little leaven leavens the whole lump.” (Gal. 5:9)

The whole of the Law has been fulfilled we live in and through Him, it is internal now, not external.

Human effort for salvation is self-righteousness and the antithesis and contrary to grace.

Now to him who WORKS, the wages are NOT counted as grace but as DEBT! But to him who does NOT work but BELIEVES in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness.” (Rom. 4:3-5, NKJV)

 

[GodsGrace101]

Seriously!!!

We will never be like Him, wow, I guess instead of falling at His feet you prefer to stand up right beside Him!!!

This such heresy, I can no longer respond to you.

You might want to read this UG.
It's one of the atonement theories. I do wonder which one you believe in, but no matter...


#1 The Moral Influence Theory
One of the earliest theories for the atonement is the Moral Influence theory, which simply taught that Jesus Christ came and died in order to bring about a positive change to humanity. This moral change comes through the teachings of Jesus alongside His example and actions. The most notable name here is that of Augustine from the 4th century, whose influence has almost single-handedly had the greatest impact upon Western Christianity. He affirmed the Moral Influence theory as the main theory of the Atonement (alongside the Ransom theory as well).

Within this theory the death of Christ is understood as a catalyst to reform society, inspiring men and women to follow His example and live good moral lives of love. In this theory the Holy Spirit comes to help Christians produce this moral change. Logically, in this theory the Eschatological development too becomes about morality, where it is taught that after death the human race will be judged by their conduct in life. This in turn creates a strong emphasis on free will as the human response to follow Jesus’ example. Although Augustine himself differs here in that he did not teach free will, but instead that human beings are incapable of change themselves, and require God to radically alter their lives sovereignly through the Holy Spirit.

This theory focuses on not just the death of Jesus Christ, but on His entire life. This sees the saving work of Jesus not only in the event of the crucifixion, but also in all the words He has spoken, and the example He has set. In this theory the cross is merely a ramification of the moral life of Jesus. He is crucified as a martyr due to the radical nature of His moral example. In this way the Moral Influence theory emphasizes Jesus Christ as our teacher, our example, our founder and leader, and ultimately, as a result, our first martyr.