Not By Works

[Argueless]

Nice try. But being here, conversing with people, discussing the Bible, is the OPPOSITE of keeping away. The post was directed specifically at the originator of this thread.

So not only has FollowHisSteps, and anyone else accusing him and others of being these people;
"I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. KEEP AWAY FROM THEM.
For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people."
Rom 16:17-18

But he, and perhaps you, not only refuse to KEEP AWAY FROM THEM, but actually seek them out to cause division and strife. So WHO really does that verse apply to?

...Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” These men are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage. A Call to Persevere But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit. Jude 1:14-19

Going back to verse 4 of this chaprer we will see who these things are referred to, the people who DIVIDE you by saying that FAITH ALONE saves even though James clearly said that it is not by FAITH ALONE(James 2:24) and Jesus with all the apostles who heard and preached OBEDIENCE as He instructed them to do (Matthew 28:18-20).

...For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, WHO CHANGE THE GRACE OF GOD INTO A LICENSE FOR IMMORALITY and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. Jude 1:4

Who are those who change the grace of God into a license for immorality? They are the ones WHO DIVIDE YOU, who do not have the Spirit because if they do, the Spirit will surely lead them to desire to OBEY GOD.

 

[Hevosmies]

And what are the commandments......there are 613.....do you even know all 613? How can you keep them if you do not even know them........? Point being.....NO ONE KEEPS THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD....because in order to make that claim....one must have kept ALL APPPICABLE commandments 24/7/365 their whole life from birth to death......only 1 has done that and JustpassingthroughpretendingtokeepthecommandmentsofGod ain't the 1!

If we say that we have no sin we are deceived and the truth is not in us <- does this sounds like one who keeps the law??

i dont think he means the 613 thats a different covenant. but rather the ones mentioned in the NT like love your neighbor, love God, dont steal etc.

If nobody keeps the commandments, then nobody has the truth in them, and everyone is a liar according to

1 John 2:4
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Amen! The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). To “believe” the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

The gospel is a message of grace to be received through faith. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. The gospel is not salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works or a magicians power source to make it possible to save yourself only after you become like Jesus.

You said the magic word MMD...
PREREQUISITE.

Unfortunately, AFTER salvation,,,there is plenty that Paul taught us....
Have you not read all of the N.T.?

Romans 13:5-14
5Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience’ sake.
6For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing.
7Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.

8Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
9For this, “YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”
10Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.


11Do this, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed.
12The night is almost gone, and the day is near. Therefore let us lay aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light.
13Let us behave properly as in the day, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual promiscuity and sensuality, not in strife and jealousy.
14But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh in regard to its lusts.


1. Is this what you mean by prescriptive?
It still means that it is what we're supposed to do.

2. Notice that Paul says we have not obtained salvation yet....but that it is only nearer than when we first believed. This is because we cannot know till our death if we have CONTINUED in the faith.

 

[dcontroversal]

and , here you are, STILL obsessing about how long it takes for one to bear fruit, judging away, sinning away, we are told not to judge.

so, no one is talking about time frames for you, mr. judgemental fruit checker.

judging fruit is God's place, not ours.

Amen.....is he still going on about that with his drivel.......wow.....thank the good mods for the ignore button...keeps me from getting banned or having a stroke......!!!

 

[NoNameMcgee]

And what are the commandments......there are 613.....do you even know all 613? How can you keep them if you do not even know them........? Point being.....NO ONE KEEPS THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD....because in order to make that claim....one must have kept ALL APPPICABLE commandments 24/7/365 their whole life from birth to death......only 1 has done that and JustpassingthroughpretendingtokeepthecommandmentsofGod ain't the 1!

If we say that we have no sin we are deceived and the truth is not in us <- does this sounds like one who keeps the law??

i believe hevo would agree we dont keep them perfectly brother and wouldnt need to in order to be saved

though through the mighty power of God working in us we sons and daughters all do keep them

(in the sense it is the manifestation of Him working in us.. how fruitful we are... some 30 some 60 some 100)

(maybe i am confused but that is how i understood his post)

​

 

[dcontroversal]

What do YOU believe the gospel IS and what do YOU believe it means to "believe" the gospel? (Romans 1:16)

He believes he keeps the law, obeys the commandments and meets God standards by helping Jesus in his "salvation"

 

[NoNameMcgee]

i dont think he means the 613 thats a different covenant. but rather the ones mentioned in the NT like love your neighbor, love God, dont steal etc.

If nobody keeps the commandments, then nobody has the truth in them, and everyone is a liar according to

1 John 2:4
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

◄ 5083. téreó ►

Strong's Concordance

téreó: to watch over, to guard​

Original Word: τηρέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: téreó
Phonetic Spelling: (tay-reh'-o)
Definition: to watch over, to guard
Usage: I keep, guard, observe, watch over

i believe you and dcon are having an issue with semantics

he is speaking of perfectly keeping them as to be justified by your actions

you are speaking of the sanctification which God works in us while we are yet on earth​

 

[UnderGrace]

Exactly, I was speaking to humility!!

Being transformed to His image is far different than believing we can be perfect like Him in love, justice, mercy etc.,
Who among us has born the sins of the world
Without humility, transformation would be difficult I would think.

Thank you!!

you made the mistake of adding to UGs post
...

she never said she is not driven to conform to Gods will and not the world
she said instead of trying to prop yourself up as His equal you should fall to His feet

(from my understanding)

much like when i said Jesus keeps us saved and not works

then you claimed i am against works

 

[dcontroversal]

i believe hevo would agree we dont keep them perfectly brother and wouldnt need to in order to be saved

though through the mighty power of God working in us we sons and daughters all do keep them

(in the sense it is the manifestation of Him working in us.. how fruitful we are... some 30 some 60 some 100)

(maybe i am confused but that is how i understood his post)

​

The righteousness of Christ WITHOUT the law is imputed by faith to our account.....and they have been condensed to 2 then 1........

 

[Argueless]

And what are the commandments......there are 613.....do you even know all 613? How can you keep them if you do not even know them........? Point being.....NO ONE KEEPS THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD....because in order to make that claim....one must have kept ALL APPPICABLE commandments 24/7/365 their whole life from birth to death......only 1 has done that and JustpassingthroughpretendingtokeepthecommandmentsofGod ain't the 1!

If we say that we have no sin we are deceived and the truth is not in us <- does this sounds like one who keeps the law??

Paul was worried that some of them may be deceived just like eve was deceived.

...But I AM AFRAID that just as Eve was DECEIVED by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be LED ASTRAY from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 2 Corinthians 11:3

The truth is that the deceiver has been deceiving from the beginning until now.

These deceivers will REJECT and NULLIFY the Word and believe the deceiving spirits.(Isaiah 5:20-24, Mark 7:6-13)

...while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 2 Timothy 3:13

...THE SPIRIT CLEARLY SAYS that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through HYPOCRITICAL LIARS, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 1 Timothy 4:1-2

How would we know who were the ones that were deceived?

We know that Eve was deceived when she believed the deceiver and disobeyed God's command.

Who are the deceivers and who were deceived?

..But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18 They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19 These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.

...At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. Matthew 24:10‭-‬14‭, ‬24

...For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve. 2 Corinthians 11:13‭-‬15

And those that were deceived believed in the deceivers mentioned above and disobeyed God's commands because they were made to believe that they would not surely die, IOW, "always saved". But scriptures warn us not to be deceived;

...Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them. Ephesians 5:6‭-‬7

...Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?” The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’ ” “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”... Genesis 3:1‭-‬19

Just think what could have happened if Eve did not believe the serpents deception but OBEYED God instead. ...NO NEED TO DISCUSS SALVATION FOR SURE because no one needs to be saved.

The truth is that Adam and Eve were created according to the image of God's righteousness and holiness and they BELIEVE and OBEY God until they got DECEIVED and disobeyed God. If they were deceived, why can't you?

Did God warn us about the deception? If He did, then why refuse to take heed of them?

So who would say now that OBEDIENCE TO GOD HAS NO BEARING IN SALVATION?

 

[dcontroversal]

Let me answer this with what Jesus said to the rich young man

Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"
"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
"Which ones?" the man inquired.
Jesus replied, "'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'"
"All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?"
Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
Matt 19:16-20

The rich young man said, "All these I have kept". Keeping commandments is not a problem

Paul says he was
"as for legalistic righteousness, faultless" Phil 3:6

So anyone who says keeping the commandments is impossible are not being biblical.
They are testifying to their own rebellion and their own failed capabilities and desire merely to condemn
others.

yeah....Jesus was born, lived and died UNDER THE LAW which ratified the NEW COVENANT.......I do not expect you to grasp that truth Petey.....

 

[Rosemaryx]

I do not know the language that best describe such things.
Paul talks of grace, freedom from ceremonies, food, religious practises, while talking of slavery to righteousness,
loving others, fulfilling the law through the Spirit, sowing to the Spirit, dying to sinful nature.

What I am aware of is some repress fear, fear of rejection, fear of failure and make the eternal present today and
secure beyond that which we know. Fear is not sin, but part of keeping us alive. Without fear the risks we would
take would kill us. Fear is healthy, excessive fear paralyzing. A man of courage takes his fear and does things
despite it rather than not having it.

So the language of security is about fear, not freedom, insecurity and the fear of betrayal, not knowledge of being
known and loved through the cross. The cross is our security in Christ, it is His statement of eternal commitment
to His people to never leave or forsake Him. Our response is to believe He can change us.

Do you believe this?

God says we are not to fear or be dismayed , fear is not healthy , it leads us to a petrified sate...
We must put our trust in the LORD , fear is from the evil one...xox...

 

[dcontroversal]

Remember the adage "do not make a parable walk on all fours. You are making the same mistake GB9, DC, made

For example, take the parable of the wheat and tares. Can all that that parable symbolizes occur in seven or eight months? (The amount of time it takes for wheat to grow?"

Apparently, since it takes a tree years to produce fruit, it also is seven or eight months from the time the seeds of the Gospel are planted TO THE END OF THE AGE.

I don't know also, tell me. Do farmers plant grain without plowing?

And the semipelagian thing is based on definition. Semipelagian teaches that the beginning of faith is an act of free will...I believe God initiates and completes the work in us. If you disagree, that's your right.

Also, what does the soil in the parable represent? Jesus explains that part.

Are you still bloviating about this.....have you patented those plants yet that produce immediately upon sprouting......probably not....!!!

 

[GodsGrace101]

i dont think he means the 613 thats a different covenant. but rather the ones mentioned in the NT like love your neighbor, love God, dont steal etc.

If nobody keeps the commandments, then nobody has the truth in them, and everyone is a liar according to

1 John 2:4
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Perhaps, one day, @dcontroversal will learn that Jesus did indeed abolish two of the three types of LAW.

1. The Civil Law
2. The Ceremonial Law



BUT the 3rd type of LAW...the MORAL LAW will NEVER be abolished...this is because GOD HIMSELF is morallity,,,,His very being is love and morality and justice...God cannot be separated from the Moral Law.

THIS law we must obey or be lost.

This is an interesting article:

Jesus Came Not to Abolish But to Fulfill
Jesus said in Matthew 5:17, “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill.”

Does this mean that all of the Old Testament Law applies to us? Most evangelical theologians would say that there are three aspects to the Old Testament Law: ceremonial, civil or judicial, and moral.

The ceremonial law is clearly fulfilled in Christ. God’s people no longer sacrifice in the Temple because Christ’s sacrifice has been offered once for all of us.4Old Testament dietary restrictions such as clean or unclean foods no longer apply to us because Jesus has “declared all foods clean.”5

Note also the vision of the sheets given to Peter, where God repeatedly says to Peter’s objection about eating unclean animals “what God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy.”6 These and other ceremonial laws are fulfilled in Christ.

Secondly, most theologians agree that civil or judicial law is fulfilled in Christ. Christians can learn principles of justice from God’s provisions there, but do not need to directly apply it today. Calvin argued that the judicial law was God’s application of the principles of justice—for that time and place.7

However, the moral laws such as the Ten Commandments are normally held to be fully in effect now. Jesus said that to neglect even the least of the commands has serious consequences.8

source: https://tifwe.org/resource/moral-law-and-the-ten-commandments/

 

[dcontroversal]

I never once judged anyone, just talked Bible. You are the one with an untamed tongue calling people names like legalist and such just because they don't agree with your bank exegesis

I never put any time frame, you and DC did. And you use bad exegesis that if applied to the parable of the wheat and the end of the the age happened seven or eight months after Jesus' Ascension

A. Trees take years to bear fruit, so apply the same to believers as trees

B. Wheat takes seven or eight months, so apply that to the wheat and tares parable

Doesn't work. Therefore you cannot use your made up principle consistently, lol

Good exegesis, buddy

Blah blah blah.............they sell diapers at Walmart......and miracle grow as well...helps gardens grow and produce more

 

[BillG]

I don't believe we can transform anyone.

We could lead them to Jesus and then HE'LL transform them....
If there's no transformation...there's no salvation.

Romans 12:2
Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.


2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

Did I say we could transform them?
If so then that was not my intent.

My intent was to say that we should be like Jesus.

Not sure why you would bring up no transformation, no salvation.

As I said

Lives are transformed by love and acceptance.
When they see and experience that, the love God has for them, then we will transformation and trust.

Missed out "see" between 'will, transformation'

You obviously did not read correctly.
But FYI, you/me can be part of that transformation.
By being like Jesus.

So why add "No transformation?
As what you said has no bearing on what I posted.

 

[Hevosmies]

However, the moral laws such as the Ten Commandments are normally held to be fully in effect now. Jesus said that to neglect even the least of the commands has serious consequences.8

source: https://tifwe.org/resource/moral-law-and-the-ten-commandments/

What about the Sabbath? I dont see Paul list that. Paul lists all other of those commandments except the sabbath in Romans somewhere, cant remember where, romans 13:9

 

[dcontroversal]

Perhaps, one day, @dcontroversal will learn that Jesus did indeed abolish two of the three types of LAW.

1. The Civil Law
2. The Ceremonial Law



BUT the 3rd type of LAW...the MORAL LAW will NEVER be abolished...this is because GOD HIMSELF is morallity,,,,His very being is love and morality and justice...God cannot be separated from the Moral Law.

THIS law we must obey or be lost.

This is an interesting article:

Jesus Came Not to Abolish But to Fulfill
Jesus said in Matthew 5:17, “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill.”

Does this mean that all of the Old Testament Law applies to us? Most evangelical theologians would say that there are three aspects to the Old Testament Law: ceremonial, civil or judicial, and moral.

The ceremonial law is clearly fulfilled in Christ. God’s people no longer sacrifice in the Temple because Christ’s sacrifice has been offered once for all of us.4Old Testament dietary restrictions such as clean or unclean foods no longer apply to us because Jesus has “declared all foods clean.”5

Note also the vision of the sheets given to Peter, where God repeatedly says to Peter’s objection about eating unclean animals “what God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy.”6 These and other ceremonial laws are fulfilled in Christ.

Secondly, most theologians agree that civil or judicial law is fulfilled in Christ. Christians can learn principles of justice from God’s provisions there, but do not need to directly apply it today. Calvin argued that the judicial law was God’s application of the principles of justice—for that time and place.7

However, the moral laws such as the Ten Commandments are normally held to be fully in effect now. Jesus said that to neglect even the least of the commands has serious consequences.8

source: https://tifwe.org/resource/moral-law-and-the-ten-commandments/

Perhaps one day you will actully put your complete trust into Jesus, instead of yourself to keep yourself saved....highly unlikely though.....

 

[GodsGrace101]

◄ 5083. téreó ►

Strong's Concordance​

téreó: to watch over, to guard

Original Word: τηρέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: téreó
Phonetic Spelling: (tay-reh'-o)
Definition: to watch over, to guard
Usage: I keep, guard, observe, watch over

i believe you and dcon are having an issue with semantics

he is speaking of perfectly keeping them as to be justified by your actions

you are speaking of the sanctification which God works in us while we are yet on earth​

Nobody said anything about keeping anything perfectly.
YOU have said that and have put words into person's mouths.
Some here do what they accuse others of doing...


@Hevosmies is 100% right.....

You mention sanctification....what is sanctification but the keeping of God's MORAL LAW.

Study up and find out that the MORAL LAW MUST BE KEPT if we expect to see heaven.

The blind should not be leading others...one day we will pay for the mistakes we made in possibly causing some to lose their salvation.
James 3:1 Teaching is serious business and not for the faint of heart.

Jesus said He did not come to do away with the Law.
Mathew 5:17
Jesus said our righteousness YES,, OUR righteousness...the righteousness YOU SO FEAR....
must be GREATER than that of the pharisees.
Mathew 5:20

Study what that means.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Nobody said anything about keeping anything perfectly.
YOU have said that and have put words into person's mouths.
Some here do what they accuse others of doing...


@Hevosmies is 100% right.....

i not only said as far as i can tell or maybe im confused.... they also both gave me a positive reaction....

only trying to keep peace between my brothers

(not that i am needed)