Retire the Ten Commandments?

Grandpa · Feb 24, 2019

You don't understand the scripture?

2 Corinthians 3:14-15
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

Do you understand what this is saying?

safswan · Feb 24, 2019

preston39 said:

Whereas some,like the pastor above,erroneously ascribe the law to Israel only,the scriptures and logical reasoning deny this.

“For there is no respect of persons with God.For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.”(Romans 2:11-13)

How could God give this law to His people whom he loved so much and which some claim they could not keep but then preclude Gentiles from this law as some claim?This neither scriptural nor logical and many over the years in recognizing this have taught that the ten commandment law is to be observed and is an essential part of Christian doctrine.Here are some views about the law and ten commandments:

"We believe that the law of God is the eternal and imperishable rule of His moral government."
—Baptist Church Manual.

"The first four commandments set forth man's obligations directly toward God.... The fourth commandment sets forth God's claim on man's time and thought.... Not one of the ten words [commandments] is of merely racial significance.... The Sabbath was established originally [long before Moses] in no special connection with the Hebrews, but as an institution for all mankind, in commemoration of God's rest after six days of creation. It was designed for all the descendants of Adam."
—Adult Quarterly, Southern Baptist Convention series, Aug. 15, 1937.

Q. 46. What did God at first reveal to man for the rule of his obedience?
A. The rule which God at first revealed to man for his obedience was the moral law. (Rom. 2:14,15; 5:13,14)
Q. 47. Where is the moral law summarily comprehended?
A. The moral law is summarily comprehended in the Ten Commandments. (Deut. 10:4; Matt. 19:17)
Q. 48. What is the sum of the Ten Commandments?
A. The sum of the Ten Commandments is, to love the Lord our God, with all our heart, with all our soul, with all our strength, and with all our mind; and our neighbor as ourselves. (Matt. 22:36-40; Mark 12:28-33)
Q. 49. What is the preface to the Ten Commandments?
A. The preface to the Ten Commandments is, "I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage." (Exodus 20:2)
Q. 50. What does the preface to the Ten Commandments teach us?
A. The preface to the Ten Commandments teaches us, that because God is the Lord, and our God and Redeemer, therefore we are bound to keep all His commandments. (Deut 11:1)
—Benjamin Keach's Catechism, 1677

The moral law doth for ever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof, and that not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it; neither doth Christ in the Gospel any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.
—1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith, Chapter 19, Section 5

Q. (36) What is sin?
A. It is a transgression of the law. I Jn. iii. 4.
Q. (37) A transgression of what law?
A. Of the law of our nature, and of the law of the ten commandments as written in the holy scriptures. Ro. ii. 12-15. Ex. xx,
Q. (38) When doth one sin against the law of nature?
A. When you do anything that your conscience tells you is a transgression against God or man. Ru. ii. 14, 15.
Q. (39) When do we sin against the law as written in the ten commandments?
A. When you do anything that they forbid, although you be ignorant of it. Ps. xix. 12.
Q. (40) How many ways are there to sin against this law?
A. Three: by sinful thoughts, by sinful words, and also by sinful actions. Ro. vii. 7; ii. 6. Mat. v. 28; xii. 37.
Q. (41) What if we sin but against one of the ten commandments?
A. Whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all; ?For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now, if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.? Ja. ii. 10, 11.
—John Bunyan's Catechism

Of John Smyth:
He believed that 'the Magistrates should cause all men to worship the true God'and enforce both tables of the Ten Commandments. (THEOLOGICAL POSITIONS OF JOHN SMYTH)

These are just a few of the comments, from chiefly one denomination, which show the way the ten commandments were viewed. The problems which developed later in time was as a result of how the Sabbath was to be treated. Was there a new Sabbath instituted in Sunday or was the Sabbath now converted to the Lord’s Day or is the Sabbath now in Christ since He is our rest? These varying views, I believe led to many speaking against the law in general in order to eliminate this dilemma and have led to many divorcing themselves from the ten commandments in order to “escape” from the Sabbath.When confronted about why they observe nine of the ten they say:

“There are many places in the New Testament that make it clear that murder is a sin even if the Old Testament had never been written….I am one who claims to keep nine out of ten, and it's because I can find in the New Testament where it clearly tells me that nine of them are commanded for me, as a Christian, to keep. In fact, five of them are spoken by Jesus in Matt 19.”

The fact is, the early believers were more accurate and sincere in their beliefs and about the law and ten commandments and some did see the truth about the Sabbath while others simply stuck to what was traditional and which did not cause contention and upheaval in their systems of belief. However we need to be honest with the scriptures and ourselves and let the chips fall where they will and then deal with the consequences of the same.

safswan · Feb 24, 2019

Grandpa said:

THE MINISTRATION OF DEATH

The apostle Paul wrote:"But if the ministration of death written and engraven on stones,was glorious,...which glory was to be done away;"[II Corinthians 3:7]

Without careful and proper study of the word of God(Isaiah 28:9,10),the above passage of scripture may be used to say the ten commandments was a ministration of death which is now done away with.This would be in severe contradiction to other statements by the apostle Paul.

He teaches that the breaking of the ten commandments is a sin and contrary to sound doctrine.[I Timothy 1:8-11]

He teaches that observing the ten commandments will allow us to fulfill the command to love.[Romans 13:8-10]

He enjoins the keeping of a particular commandment as the first with a promise,implying that the others are to be observed also.[Ephesians 6:1-3]

He says the doers of the law "shall be justified" and the context indicates this is a reference to the ten commandments.[Romans 2:13,20-23]

He says this law shows what is sin.[Romans 7:7]

He states boldly, he is under the law to Christ.[I Corinthians 9:21]

If we are not subject to this law then Paul says we are carnal.[Romans 8:7]

Is it really the ten commandments which minister death?This seems to be the teaching of many persons today.Their theory is;get rid of the ten commandments and if there is no law, there will be no sin.

Then, we would not really need a Saviour and we would not need to repent of any thing.[Romans 4:15] The preaching of the apostles against sin, would be completely unnecessary.How ridiculous!

The apostle Paul in a parallel passage explains what was the true cause of death and how it should be treated.

As in II Corinthians 3,in Romans 7, Paul discusses the difference between the old and new covenants.[II Corinthians 3:6,14;Romans 7:6]

As this comparison is done, the term used to describe the old covenant is;the ministration or service which produces death or that we were dead wherein we were held.[Romans 7;6]

How did the old covenant produce death and condemnation?

(i) A penalty for breaking the ten commandments was death.[See, John :8:3-5;Leviticus 20:10;Exodus 21:22-25;23:18-20;Numbers 15:32-36]

(ii)The sacrifices for sin could not truly remove the penalty for sin which is death.[Deuteronomy 27:26;Galatians 3:10;Hebrews 10;1-4;Romans 6:23]

A superficial view of the situation would cause some to believe the problem was the ten commandments.This is not so ,Paul explains:

"For when we were in the flesh,the motions of sin,which were by the law,did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death."[Romans 7:5]

Sin works by the law to produce death.Should we get rid of the law to get rid of sin or stop sinning and so remove the threat of death?Paul continues:

"But now we are delivered from the law,that being dead wherein we were held;that we should serve in the newness of spirit(ministration of the spirit),and not in the oldness of the letter(ministration of death)."[Romans 7:6]

Does this mean we are delivered from keeping the law or delivered from the death penalty if we have the law in our hearts and walk in obedience to it,while trusting in Christ to be the propitiation for our sins.[I John 2:1,2]Let us see:

"What shall we say then? Is the law sin?(ie. Is it a bad thing which we should get rid of?)God forbid.Nay,I had not known sin,but by the law;for I had not known lust except the law had said,thou shalt not covet."[Romans 7:7]

Hence Paul emphatically states that the problem was not the ten commandments but:

"...sin taking occasion by the commandment.... the commandment which was ordained to life,I found to be unto death.For sin,taking occasion by the commandment,deceived me and by it slew me."[Romans 7:8-11]

He states that the commandments ministered death,not because they were faulty,but sin was the true culprit.

"Wherefore the law is holy,and just ,and good."[Romans 7:12]

He emphasizes:

"Was then that which is good(the law) made death unto me?(ie.is the ten commandments really that which ministered death?)God forbid but sin..."[Romans 7:13]

Paul goes on to explain how we escape from the problem of sin and death which the old covenant ministered:

We do so through Jesus Christ who took the punishment we should have received for our sins.Through Him we have forgiveness of our sins and His love for us i.e.His grace motivates us to forsake sin and live Godly.[See,Romans 7:24,25;8:1-3;II Corinthians 5:14,15;Titus 2:11,12;I John 2:1,2]

To be led by the Spirit of God means the righteousness of the law will be fulfilled in(done by) us and we are no longer carnal but subject to the law of God which is spiritual.[Romans 7:14,8:4,7]

CONCLUSION

We cannot get rid of sin by removing the ten commandments.Our only hope is to depend on Christ by faith to forgive us our sins and to keep us from continuing to break the commandments.[John 8:1-11]This is the ministration of the spirit,which brings life.This is what remains and is glorious.

seed_time_harvest · Feb 24, 2019

preston39 said:

You need to study the Bible...I see.

We are not saved while on this earth. After repentance, baptism and committed to a righteous life we are ..."born again".
After we die and are judged by G-d for a righteous life and He pronounces us ..."saved"...then we are saved and no one can take that from us.

I doubt He appreciates us concluding that we are saved before......do you?

You see what foolishness sounds like?

FollowHisSteps · Feb 24, 2019

Grandpa said:

Here is Pauls perspective

We know that the law is good if one uses it properly.
We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers--and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine
1 Timothy 1:8-10

Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law
Romans 13:10

The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself.'
Galatians 5:14

So in Christ, walking in His ways is fulfilling the law. So where is the sense the law was given just to show
us Jesus? Nowhere. It is an invented idea by sinners who find themselves trapped in sin and condemnation
and incapable of following Jesus because they have not experienced true liberation and freedom in Him.

I could share reasons why, issues that lead to failure, perspectives that change us, but I would be told I am
being unspiritual, worldly and evil. But this is strange, that those who have the words are not prepared to
listen to Jesus and find a way to victory and overcoming. But in overcoming we reign with Christ, co-heirs
with Him on His throne. But what do you want? A compromised flawed life or a life like Jesus and His example?

Do you believe the cross? Do you believe you are forgiven and real change can take place?

Grandpa · Feb 24, 2019

safswan said:

THE MINISTRATION OF DEATH

The apostle Paul wrote:"But if the ministration of death written and engraven on stones,was glorious,...which glory was to be done away;"[II Corinthians 3:7]

Without careful and proper study of the word of God(Isaiah 28:9,10),the above passage of scripture may be used to say the ten commandments was a ministration of death which is now done away with.This would be in severe contradiction to other statements by the apostle Paul.

He teaches that the breaking of the ten commandments is a sin and contrary to sound doctrine.[I Timothy 1:8-11]

He teaches that observing the ten commandments will allow us to fulfill the command to love.[Romans 13:8-10]

He enjoins the keeping of a particular commandment as the first with a promise,implying that the others are to be observed also.[Ephesians 6:1-3]

He says the doers of the law "shall be justified" and the context indicates this is a reference to the ten commandments.[Romans 2:13,20-23]

He says this law shows what is sin.[Romans 7:7]

He states boldly, he is under the law to Christ.[I Corinthians 9:21]

If we are not subject to this law then Paul says we are carnal.[Romans 8:7]

Is it really the ten commandments which minister death?This seems to be the teaching of many persons today.Their theory is;get rid of the ten commandments and if there is no law, there will be no sin.

Then, we would not really need a Saviour and we would not need to repent of any thing.[Romans 4:15] The preaching of the apostles against sin, would be completely unnecessary.How ridiculous!

The apostle Paul in a parallel passage explains what was the true cause of death and how it should be treated.

As in II Corinthians 3,in Romans 7, Paul discusses the difference between the old and new covenants.[II Corinthians 3:6,14;Romans 7:6]

As this comparison is done, the term used to describe the old covenant is;the ministration or service which produces death or that we were dead wherein we were held.[Romans 7;6]

How did the old covenant produce death and condemnation?

(i) A penalty for breaking the ten commandments was death.[See, John :8:3-5;Leviticus 20:10;Exodus 21:22-25;23:18-20;Numbers 15:32-36]

(ii)The sacrifices for sin could not truly remove the penalty for sin which is death.[Deuteronomy 27:26;Galatians 3:10;Hebrews 10;1-4;Romans 6:23]

A superficial view of the situation would cause some to believe the problem was the ten commandments.This is not so ,Paul explains:

"For when we were in the flesh,the motions of sin,which were by the law,did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death."[Romans 7:5]

Sin works by the law to produce death.Should we get rid of the law to get rid of sin or stop sinning and so remove the threat of death?Paul continues:

"But now we are delivered from the law,that being dead wherein we were held;that we should serve in the newness of spirit(ministration of the spirit),and not in the oldness of the letter(ministration of death)."[Romans 7:6]

Does this mean we are delivered from keeping the law or delivered from the death penalty if we have the law in our hearts and walk in obedience to it,while trusting in Christ to be the propitiation for our sins.[I John 2:1,2]Let us see:

"What shall we say then? Is the law sin?(ie. Is it a bad thing which we should get rid of?)God forbid.Nay,I had not known sin,but by the law;for I had not known lust except the law had said,thou shalt not covet."[Romans 7:7]

Hence Paul emphatically states that the problem was not the ten commandments but:

"...sin taking occasion by the commandment.... the commandment which was ordained to life,I found to be unto death.For sin,taking occasion by the commandment,deceived me and by it slew me."[Romans 7:8-11]

He states that the commandments ministered death,not because they were faulty,but sin was the true culprit.

"Wherefore the law is holy,and just ,and good."[Romans 7:12]

He emphasizes:

"Was then that which is good(the law) made death unto me?(ie.is the ten commandments really that which ministered death?)God forbid but sin..."[Romans 7:13]

Paul goes on to explain how we escape from the problem of sin and death which the old covenant ministered:

We do so through Jesus Christ who took the punishment we should have received for our sins.Through Him we have forgiveness of our sins and His love for us i.e.His grace motivates us to forsake sin and live Godly.[See,Romans 7:24,25;8:1-3;II Corinthians 5:14,15;Titus 2:11,12;I John 2:1,2]

To be led by the Spirit of God means the righteousness of the law will be fulfilled in(done by) us and we are no longer carnal but subject to the law of God which is spiritual.[Romans 7:14,8:4,7]

CONCLUSION

We cannot get rid of sin by removing the ten commandments.Our only hope is to depend on Christ by faith to forgive us our sins and to keep us from continuing to break the commandments.[John 8:1-11]This is the ministration of the spirit,which brings life.This is what remains and is glorious.

Paul wouldn't have called the 10 commandments the Ministration of Death and Condemnation if it was something other than the 10 commandments that was the Ministration of Death and Condemnation.

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

No one gets rid of sin. The choice is to keep working at the law which constantly shows sin and therefore Condemnation and Death or Christ in whom is no Condemnation and Eternal Life.

Christians choose Christ. Christians die to the law and live toward God.

Galatians 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

Grandpa · Feb 24, 2019

FollowHisSteps said:

Invented idea???

Galatians 3:23-25
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Romans 10:3-4
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

FollowHisSteps · Feb 24, 2019

Grandpa said:

Here is the problem. The law and obedience to it does not bring us righteousness.
Righteousness or a right relationship with God comes through repentance and faith.
And Jesus is the final, full expression of this.

Paul is describing he knew the law, which just told him he failed, but did not bring him to repentance.
It is like the difference between those trying to pass an exam while not having the ability to pass, against
those who have the ability and the right approach, who pass the exam and do not even have to sit it.

In Christ Jesus we fulfil the law, because in the Spirit, walking by the Lords commands and His transformation
of us, we are no longer law breakers, because we are slaves to righteousness, simply we do not want to sin.

So if I share about my faith, and how others come across I am not sinning.
But I will be told I am lying, and slandering, which is itself the very thing I am being accused of.
The idea anyone from their hearts can truly walk as Jesus walked is thought of as impossible.

Yet how many can actually articulate Jesus's walk. And I mean not the miracles but His approach,
His meekness, His patience, His kindness, His humbleness, His understanding, His courage, His victory,
His empathy, His desire for prayer. Is this so impossible, or is it in truth, the price to walk His way is too
high even for those who claim He is their saviour and they believe Him. I would suggest if one says it
is too high, one has not died to self and lived to Jesus and do not believe He is the Son of God.

safswan · Feb 24, 2019

"And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?"(Exodus 16:28)

I agree that he was not referring to every commandment and law but this was at least in reference to the Sabbath commandment.The exact time that had elapsed since Israel had left Egypt is debatable but there are several reasons why God's question about how long,could not be in reference to the short time they had been out of Egypt.It was a reference to what Israel specifically should have been doing while in Egypt and a hint of what the human race in general should have been doing.

There are several practices seen in scripture of which we do not see an initial command concerning them but we know that God must have given such commands.For example:

How did Cain and Able know they should make offerings to the Lord?(Genesis 4:3-5)

How did Noah know the difference between clean and unclean beasts?When was this distinction made?(Genesis 7:1,2)

Why did Cain attempt to hide the death of Abel from the Lord?Did the Lord punish him for something, which he was not aware of as being wrong?(Genesis 4:8-13)

What caused Noah to be viewed as righteous while the world which was destroyed,called evil and wicked?(Genesis 6:5-8;7:1)

All these and more, points to commands and instructions being given, which were not recorded by the writers of scripture.To argue that;"These commandments had not been given to anyone prior to this time", would be an argument from silence, which, based on the above examples,would not be a proper way to study the scriptures.

It is clear that Abraham received commandments and laws which he was to teach his children and hence these could not be commands specific to Abraham.(Genesis 18:19;26:3-5)

The covenant made with Israel at Sinai was based on the promises God made to Abraham and his descendants and was not only for those there at the time but was also for all who would serve God acceptably.

"These are the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.....Keep therefore the words of this covenant, and do them, that ye may prosper in all that ye do.Ye stand this day all of you before the LORD your God; your captains of your tribes, your elders, and your officers, with all the men of Israel,Your little ones, your wives, and thy stranger that is in thy camp, from the hewer of thy wood unto the drawer of thy water:That thou shouldest enter into covenant with the LORD thy God, and into his oath, which the LORD thy God maketh with thee this day:That he may establish thee to day for a people unto himself, and that he may be unto thee a God, as he hath said unto thee, and as he hath sworn unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.Neither with you only do I make this covenant and this oath;But with him that standeth here with us this day before the LORD our God, and also with him that is not here with us this day:"(Deuteronomy 29:1,9-15)

The laws given at Sinai or Horeb were as a result of the continuance of the requirements and promises of the covenant made with Abraham.(Psalm 105:6-10,42-45)

Israel in Egypt was expected to continue in the way of the Lord but instead Joshua said:"..and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood,and in Egypt;and serve ye the Lord."(Joshua 24:14)

Careful reading of the events leading up to Sinai shows that some of Israel did know the way of the Lord and were even appointed judges of the people.(Exodus 18:13-16,20-22;1:17)

Hence the complaint in Exodus 16:28,was about Israel serving other gods and not keeping the Sabbath and other commands while they were in Egypt and even now they were out.

This is why God had to speak to them from Sinai so they would believe Moses.(Exodus 19:9)Yes there were new commands being introduced but many were being taught from what should have been handed down according to the example of Abraham.

Again careful reading of events before Sinai show that actions contrary to the ten commandments were considered to be sinful.

1)Abraham's father and those in Egypt did wrong in serving other gods.(Joshua 24:1,2,14)

2)The strange gods in their hands were images which the people served and they could not go up to Bethel until they got rid of them.(Genesis 35:1-4)

3)The oath taken by the name of the Lord God of heaven was serious and one had to carry out the oath sworn in order not to be guilty of taking the Lord's name in vain.(Genesis 24:1-4,37-41)

4)Man was created just before the creation of the Sabbath.The sabbath was blessed and hallowed at that time.How could man not be required to observe it from that time?Jesus helps to reinforce this as he said the Sabbath was made for man ie.for his benefit and use.The events prior to Sinai also show it was known before God spoke it there.When had the Lord declared the seventh day the Sabbath?(Genesis 2:1-3;Mark 2:27;Exodus 16;2327)

5)The action of Ham was disrespectful to his father.The curse on his son shows the action of not honouring his parent was wrong.(Genesis 9:20-26)

6)The anger of Cain towards his brother drove him to kill him and because of this a curse came upon him.(Genesis 4:1-13;I John 3:12-15)

7)Men before the time of Moses knew it was wrong to take another man's wife.(Genesis 20:1-9;26:6-11)

8)Jacob pronounced a curse on the one who had stolen Laban's images.(Genesis 31:19,30-35)

9)Jacob lied to his father and knew it was wrong as he anticipated a curse.(Genesis 27:6-13,19)

10)God was also displeased with the state of men's hearts not only their actions.The evil intent would also include covetousness.(Genesis 6:1-6;Mark 7:21-23;James 1:14,15)

The reason why these laws had to be taught to Israel again is because as in other times they had lost the knowledge of them for the most part.(II Chronicles 34:8-33;Nehemiah 8:1-8)

For any person to serve God acceptably they must learn the righteous ways of Israel.(Jeremiah 12:14-17)

The promise of a new covenant was to Israel first and then to the Gentile and the laws of God are to be written in our hearts.Which laws would these be?(Hebrews 8:7-10;Romans 1:16;Ephesians 2:11-13,19-22)

Contrary to popular belief God's standard of love always existed and still continues today.It only because of misunderstandings why many do not realise that the ten commandments are simply an expansion/explanation of love and that just as the nine commonly "observed" by many is not a burden neither is the one commonly ignored.(II John 5:1-3;Romans 13:9,10)

seed_time_harvest · Feb 24, 2019

preston39 said:

I see you are putting your trust In the flesh,a part of me Is 100% saved,a part of me Is wall to wall Holy ghost.

safswan · Feb 24, 2019

mailmandan said:

Herein lies your problem.You ignore the scriptures which place the elements discussed by Paul in the passage in the proper context.Let me repeat:

"From the above we see that Jesus by His death on the cross has caused our sins to be forgiven.This happened because His death caused the handwriting of ordinances which were against us to be blotted out.But what are these handwriting of ordinances?"

Paul goes on to proscribe these ordinances when he says:

"Let no man therefore judge you in meat,or in drink,or in respect of an holy day,or of the new moon,or of the Sabbath days:which are a shadow of things to come;but the body is of Christ."[Colossians 2:16,17]

It is the book of Hebrews which explains the nature of these ordinances and shadows:

"For the law having a shadow of good things to come and not the very image of the things,can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect....For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats should take away sins."[Hebrews 10:1-4]

And:

"Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us."[Hebrews 9:9-12]

These scriptures explain what the shadows are and even that the meat and drink refer to offerings made at those occasions and were not a reference to any eating or drinking(of which I know none)laws.

Even without this testimony however it is clear the passage refers to an action of Christ which caused forgiveness of sin which replaces these "handwriting of ordinances".

There is nothing in the old covenant which portrayed the 7th day Sabbath as having anything to do with the forgiveness of sins.The yearly festivals however held this connotation.

safswan · Feb 24, 2019

mailmandan said:

I am not sure which translation you are using but in the one I use,your "pattern" is not as you want to claim.You say:

"Yearly, monthly, weekly pattern proves it is the weekly sabbath."

And:

"1 Chronicles 23:31 - Yearly (fixed festivals), monthly (new moons), weekly (Sabbaths)"
The passages actually read:

1Ch 23:31 And to offer all burnt sacrifices unto the LORD in the sabbaths, in the new moons, and on the set feasts, by number, .....:

2Ch 2:4 Behold, I build an house to the name of the LORD my God, to dedicate it to him, and to burn before him sweet incense, and for the continual shewbread, and for the burnt offerings morning and evening, on the sabbaths, and on the new moons, and on the solemn feasts of the LORD our God........

2Ch 8:13 Even after a certain rate every day, offering according to the commandment of Moses, on the sabbaths, and on the new moons, and on the solemn feasts,.....

Gal 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.

2 Chronicles 31:3,Nehemiah 10:33,Ezek 46:1-11, are the same as the above.However here is another departure from your "pattern"(which doesn't really exist for the most part):

Isa 1:13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting. Isa 1:14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: ....

Conforming to your "pattern":

Eze 45:17 And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths,....

A conundrum which your misleading "pattern" makes even more pronounced:

Hos 2:11 I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts.

You have obviously used material from another source without even checking to see if it really said what it claimed to say.If not,then this is a poor attempt to mislead.Rather than believe Paul is using a particular pattern I believe he is emphasizing that not only are the feast days redundant but so are the Sabbaths which are associated with these feasts.

mailmandan said:

Post # 209 Explains and responds to your misunderstanding above.

mailmandan said:

You emphasize,"3 The Lord did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, those who are here today, all of us who are alive."

Are you saying ,only those who were there and alive were a part of the covenant?So what happened when they died?No more covenant?

The fact is although the passages say the covenant was made with Israel it nowhere says in scripture that it was only for them.So too,where the Sabbath is concerned.It sad when we claim to be proclaiming God's word and are so careless in handling the same.Look at the very Sabbath command:

"But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:"(Exodus 20:10)

A prophetic word:

"Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD,to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;"

Do you understand who is a stranger?Contrary to your opinion the Sabbath was made for all mankind.

Blik · Feb 24, 2019

Grandpa said:

When we die to sin through Christ and live again with Christ in the law, here are some other things scripture tells us about that law. It is wonderful, gives understanding, they are good, they preserve life, they are trustworthy, give freedom and comfort, they are more precious than a thousand pieces of silver and gold, they are righteous, a light to our path, a joy to our heart, they bring peace, and God established them to last forever.

We are told to obey them, enjoy them, meditate on them, praise God for them, give God thanks for them, love them, gain wisdom and understanding from them, and never forget them even though we are lowly. It is wicked to forsake the law.

Blik · Feb 24, 2019

safswan said:

Herein lies your problem.You ignore the scriptures which place the elements discussed by Paul in the passage in the proper context.Let me repeat:

"From the above we see that Jesus by His death on the cross has caused our sins to be forgiven.This happened because His death caused the handwriting of ordinances which were against us to be blotted out.But what are these handwriting of ordinances?"

Paul goes on to proscribe these ordinances when he says:

"Let no man therefore judge you in meat,or in drink,or in respect of an holy day,or of the new moon,or of the Sabbath days:which are a shadow of things to come;but the body is of Christ."[Colossians 2:16,17]

It is the book of Hebrews which explains the nature of these ordinances and shadows:

"For the law having a shadow of good things to come and not the very image of the things,can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect....For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats should take away sins."[Hebrews 10:1-4]

And:

"Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us."[Hebrews 9:9-12]

These scriptures explain what the shadows are and even that the meat and drink refer to offerings made at those occasions and were not a reference to any eating or drinking(of which I know none)laws.

Even without this testimony however it is clear the passage refers to an action of Christ which caused forgiveness of sin which replaces these "handwriting of ordinances".

There is nothing in the old covenant which portrayed the 7th day Sabbath as having anything to do with the forgiveness of sins.The yearly festivals however held this connotation.

You are forgetting the nature of shadows. They are an accurate outline of what they shadow, an outline only missing the details.

FollowHisSteps · Feb 24, 2019

Blik said:

One believer said they felt condemned by reading the law, and could not imagine anyone enjoying it.
Their implication was only legalists could enjoy the law.

David loved the law because it showed who God was and how much He cared.

No civilisation in human history created a law like that in scripture, with limitations on every aspect
of life from mold, fungus, food and behaviour that fitted real life and ran a whole nation.

Cynics claim it was all invented, when the background culture had nothing like this as they were into
child sacrifice, orgies and wild abandonment. Even Israel coming out of Egypt wanted a golden calf
and to let rip. But then unbelievers cannot accept God the creator could actually bring real revelation
into the world and care at such a fundamental level. They would just blast man away, and take all he
had, so they simply cannot relate to a God who wants us to actually know Him and walk with Him.

Endoscopy · Feb 24, 2019

As j

Blik said:

As James stated "You can see my faith by my works." True faith produces works. Jesus stated about wolves in sheep's clothing by their fruit (works) you shall know them. For example a minister's works is largely what is spoken in the pulpit. Does he just give a nice homily or include the gospel message. The former work is a wolf in sheep's clothing.

Endoscopy · Feb 24, 2019

safswan said:

THE MINISTRATION OF DEATH

The apostle Paul wrote:"But if the ministration of death written and engraven on stones,was glorious,...which glory was to be done away;"[II Corinthians 3:7]

Without careful and proper study of the word of God(Isaiah 28:9,10),the above passage of scripture may be used to say the ten commandments was a ministration of death which is now done away with.This would be in severe contradiction to other statements by the apostle Paul.

He teaches that the breaking of the ten commandments is a sin and contrary to sound doctrine.[I Timothy 1:8-11]

He teaches that observing the ten commandments will allow us to fulfill the command to love.[Romans 13:8-10]

He enjoins the keeping of a particular commandment as the first with a promise,implying that the others are to be observed also.[Ephesians 6:1-3]

He says the doers of the law "shall be justified" and the context indicates this is a reference to the ten commandments.[Romans 2:13,20-23]

He says this law shows what is sin.[Romans 7:7]

He states boldly, he is under the law to Christ.[I Corinthians 9:21]

If we are not subject to this law then Paul says we are carnal.[Romans 8:7]

Is it really the ten commandments which minister death?This seems to be the teaching of many persons today.Their theory is;get rid of the ten commandments and if there is no law, there will be no sin.

Then, we would not really need a Saviour and we would not need to repent of any thing.[Romans 4:15] The preaching of the apostles against sin, would be completely unnecessary.How ridiculous!

The apostle Paul in a parallel passage explains what was the true cause of death and how it should be treated.

As in II Corinthians 3,in Romans 7, Paul discusses the difference between the old and new covenants.[II Corinthians 3:6,14;Romans 7:6]

As this comparison is done, the term used to describe the old covenant is;the ministration or service which produces death or that we were dead wherein we were held.[Romans 7;6]

How did the old covenant produce death and condemnation?

(i) A penalty for breaking the ten commandments was death.[See, John :8:3-5;Leviticus 20:10;Exodus 21:22-25;23:18-20;Numbers 15:32-36]

(ii)The sacrifices for sin could not truly remove the penalty for sin which is death.[Deuteronomy 27:26;Galatians 3:10;Hebrews 10;1-4;Romans 6:23]

A superficial view of the situation would cause some to believe the problem was the ten commandments.This is not so ,Paul explains:

"For when we were in the flesh,the motions of sin,which were by the law,did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death."[Romans 7:5]

Sin works by the law to produce death.Should we get rid of the law to get rid of sin or stop sinning and so remove the threat of death?Paul continues:

"But now we are delivered from the law,that being dead wherein we were held;that we should serve in the newness of spirit(ministration of the spirit),and not in the oldness of the letter(ministration of death)."[Romans 7:6]

Does this mean we are delivered from keeping the law or delivered from the death penalty if we have the law in our hearts and walk in obedience to it,while trusting in Christ to be the propitiation for our sins.[I John 2:1,2]Let us see:

"What shall we say then? Is the law sin?(ie. Is it a bad thing which we should get rid of?)God forbid.Nay,I had not known sin,but by the law;for I had not known lust except the law had said,thou shalt not covet."[Romans 7:7]

Hence Paul emphatically states that the problem was not the ten commandments but:

"...sin taking occasion by the commandment.... the commandment which was ordained to life,I found to be unto death.For sin,taking occasion by the commandment,deceived me and by it slew me."[Romans 7:8-11]

He states that the commandments ministered death,not because they were faulty,but sin was the true culprit.

"Wherefore the law is holy,and just ,and good."[Romans 7:12]

He emphasizes:

"Was then that which is good(the law) made death unto me?(ie.is the ten commandments really that which ministered death?)God forbid but sin..."[Romans 7:13]

Paul goes on to explain how we escape from the problem of sin and death which the old covenant ministered:

We do so through Jesus Christ who took the punishment we should have received for our sins.Through Him we have forgiveness of our sins and His love for us i.e.His grace motivates us to forsake sin and live Godly.[See,Romans 7:24,25;8:1-3;II Corinthians 5:14,15;Titus 2:11,12;I John 2:1,2]

To be led by the Spirit of God means the righteousness of the law will be fulfilled in(done by) us and we are no longer carnal but subject to the law of God which is spiritual.[Romans 7:14,8:4,7]

CONCLUSION

We cannot get rid of sin by removing the ten commandments.Our only hope is to depend on Christ by faith to forgive us our sins and to keep us from continuing to break the commandments.[John 8:1-11]This is the ministration of the spirit,which brings life.This is what remains and is glorious.

There are 613 laws scattered through the Torah.

In addition to the 10 commandments there are the laws scattered through the Torah. Maimonides counted and documented them. No one has found any more.

The 613 laws of God.
https://www.gospeloutreach.net/613laws.html

Discussion of the 613 laws of God
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_commandments

No one can keep all of these laws. Thus we need the grace through faith in Jesus.

Blik · Feb 24, 2019

Endoscopy said:

Many believe we should toss all 613 laws out because these were given to a people living in a culture thousands of years ago, laws not understood today and relate to a time of the temple.

God is our eternal God, one without the limitations of time. I think we should listen to God and try to understand the times the law was written in, I think the spirit of the law is eternal.

preston39 · Feb 24, 2019

seed_time_harvest said:

Not at all.
If you are saved....then please explain why G-d will pass judgement on our righteous life...after we die a physical death?

mailmandan · Feb 25, 2019

safswan said:

You are confused.

safswan said:

The pattern is exactly what I shared with you, regardless of which translation. It truly amazes me so see how everything I shared with you in post #199 just went right over your head. For further study see links below:

http://www.sabbatismos.com/the-sabbath/the-sabbath-in-colossians/#sthash.4KpkgGMH.dpbs
http://www.letusreason.org/7thAd24.htm

Deuteronomy 5:3 clearly states that.

The covenant was made and established with the Israelites who were alive that day and not with their fathers/ancestors is the point. Of course, once they died the covenant with Israel continued.

I've noticed how careless you are in handling God's word in multiple threads. Look at the Sabbath command in Exodus 35:1-3. Then Moses assembled all the congregation of the sons of Israel, and said to them, “These are the things that the Lord has commanded you to do: 2 “For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day you shall have a holy day, a sabbath of complete rest to the Lord; whoever does any work on it shall be put to death. 3 You shall not kindle a fire in any of your dwellings on the sabbath day.”

Nor they stranger that is within thy gates. This still does not negate the fact that this covenant was made with Israel.

That join themselves to the LORD.

I understand who the stranger is and it's not contrary to the Sabbath was made for man and not all mankind. I also thoroughly explained Mark 2:27 to you in context as well in post #199, but apparently that also just went right over your head.

In an effort to prove that keeping the Sabbath is binding on Gentile Christians today, Seventh Day Adventists claim that the "sons of the foreigner (Gentiles) in Isaiah 56:6 were mentioned as keeping the Sabbath. They claim God's people of all nationalities, whether Jew or Gentile, were duty bound to observe the Sabbath. But using that logic, we could ALSO say God's people of all nationalities, whether Jew or Gentile, were bound to observe the law of circumcision. Exodus 12:48 God said: "And when a stranger dwells with you and wants to keep the Passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as a native of the land. For no uncircumcised person shall eat it."

What did the "sons of the foreigner (stranger)" mentioned in Isaiah 56:6 have to do to be eligible for Sabbath keeping? They had to "join themselves to the Lord;" and "love the name of the Lord;" and "be his servants;" and "take hold of God's covenant." The old covenant. But to do this they had to be circumcised, for God said: "No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel" (Ezekiel 44:9). When Gentiles thus "joined themselves to the Lord" they CEASED BEING GENTILES and became proselytes to the Jewish religion. They kept the Sabbath AS JEWS, NOT as Gentiles.

But WHERE IS ANY GENTILE as a Gentile ever commanded to keep the Sabbath? Furthermore, if the Sabbath was of universal application, why were the Gentiles called "strangers?" The apostle Paul, speaking of the Gentiles during the Jewish age, says they were "strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world?" (Ephesians 2:12). And when God gave the Sabbath commandment at Sinai, why did he make it binding ONLY on "the stranger that is within your gates?" (Exodus 20:10). Where is the passage that proves the Sabbath was binding on the Gentile OUTSIDE the gates? All this shows the Sabbath was NOT universally applied. If it had been, there would have been no "strangers from the covenants of promise."

END OF PART 1

Retire the Ten Commandments?

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