Not By Works

dcontroversal · Feb 23, 2019

@heavenhelpimtired

North Carolina......man I would love to come to England and go book hunting....I've ordered from there online

I have a book for you......an 1832 Watson's Theological Dictionary in very good condition......

stillness · Feb 23, 2019

We all lack wisdom, someone just said Jesus is not the one going after the lost Sheep, He uses His disciples. Is Jesus separate from His disciples, "Behold I am with you always even to the end of the world." "Its no longer I that lives but Christ that lives in me." "As much as you have done it to the least of my disciples, you have done it to me." Even the disciple reaching the lost is Jesus going after members of His body. "I will search for my lost ones who strayed away, and I will bring them safely home again. I will bandage the injured and strengthen the weak. But I will destroy those who are fat and powerful. I will feed them, yes--feed them justice!"

gb9 · Feb 23, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:

ahem....

the next time you want to tell me I am harsh and mean, 1 of us put a picture of a dead sheep on one of their posts.

one of us has not.

BillG · Feb 23, 2019

justpassinthrough said:

If he he wanders and is in danger of eternal death how does he repent.
Given what you say above he repents when a brother seeks him out.
We are an called to tend to the lost sheep.

If that's the case then we carry them back as such.
So I hope you agree that if a sheep has gone astray then it needs a shepherd to bring them back.

So a shepherd will always look and search for a lost sheep.

posthuman · Feb 23, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:

The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field. When a man found it, he hid it again, and then in his joy went and sold all he had and bought that field.

Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant looking for fine pearls. When he found one of great value, he went away and sold everything he had and bought it.

Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away.

(Matthew 13:44-48)

all three of these go together ((note the 'again' and the 'once again'))

suppose Christ is the treasure & the pearl and we are the man. then we find Him, and hide Him again, and then joyfully give everything we have to purchase Him - not only Him but 'the whole field.' then, in the 3rd part of the triptych, we catch all kinds of Him, and later we sort through & throw out the bad parts of Him.

does that make sense? is salvation 'bought' by us? does Christ have both good & bad in Him to be weeded through?

suppose we are the treasure, and the pearl, and Christ is the man. then He finds us, he hides us again, and joyfully gave all He had to purchase us - not only us but the whole world, or, on another level, not only that in us that He considered treasure, but every part of us, redeemed: 'the whole field.' then, in the 3rd panel of the triptych, He has caught al kinds of people, and the angels will sort through and divide the righteous from the wicked at the end of the age. and, on another level, He purges from within all those He has redeemed every wicked thing in us, removing as it were, the heart of stone, and replacing it with an heart of flesh, renewing all that is evil in us to goodness.

does that make sense? is He the one who has 'bought' ? does the gospel go out and the church fill with both wheat and tares, and even each one of us find within us both good to be cultivated and bad to be weeded out?

if i take the first understanding -- which is certainly the majority view -- then i have to completely separate the third part of what appears to me to be three brief parables intentionally linked together. and i have to consider myself as having 'purchased' Christ, as though i 'own' the gospel, as though i can 'buy' it somehow. this is clue #1 to me that this is not the right interpretation.

clue #2 is that i can find scripture which corroborates that Jesus is the one who bought us, with His blood, 'selling everything He had' setting aside His glory and taking the form of a servant, even laying down His life, that He did so for the joy set before Him, that we belong to Him, that He 'hides us' in Himself, and so on. i'll dig up references if you need them but i think you know scripture well enough to think of most of them yourself

clue #3 is that in the third part, as well as in the parables of the sower and of the weeds ((same chapter)), Christ is the active participant, the one sowing the seeds, and the one drawing the net, catching the fish. so i have these two sayings about the pearl and the treasure bracketed by parables in which Jesus is clearly the one in the active role. i have also the parable of the woman putting a little leaven into her dough - this is less clear, perhaps, but it is readily understood as Christ putting in us something - a measure of faith, a teaspoon of grace, a pinch of true knowledge of Him - that works its way into our whole beings, redeeming us. leaven, we should mention, is not always prohibited in the Law. the thanksgiving / peace offering actually requires leavened bread! Leviticus 7:13.. one may argue as well, of course, from the standpoint that leaven = evil, that what He is saying is that the kingdom of heaven is like a dough that is polluted by leaven being introduced to it, and working its way through. the woman, in that case, would be either the church herself become reprobate, or the world. in either case though -- it's not the individuals being saved who are the active participants in this parable either; it's either Christ Himself once again ((in the first case)) or it's outside, evil forces acting on the otherwise pure church.
so all throughout this context Jesus is the one acting, and we are the ones receiving His actions. this supports the second view of the treasure and the pearl: that His own sheep are that pearl & treasure, and this Good Shepherd is the one who purchases them, at all costs.

.. ok this is getting to be a long post ..

does it make more sense now? what my perspective here is? to me, the context of the chapter & the typology is much more solidly on the side of Jesus being the one who finds us and gives all to secure us as His own possession. i realize of course, it's harder to use this to drum up 'tithes and offerings' in a sermon if you preach it that way tho hahaha

mailmandan · Feb 23, 2019

justpassinthrough said:

It’s actually 1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

I presume that you believe "depart from the faith" means that born again believers depart from saving faith in Christ and lose their salvation. The words "the faith" (Gr. tês pisteôs) in this context means the apostolic faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines. Some who are in a state of professing adherence to the apostolic faith, nevertheless will in both doctrine and practice depart from it, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons.

Some "nominal" Christians will abandon the Christian faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines for cults or false religions. That does not prove they were previously born again. In 1 John 2:19, we read - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

I believe the beginning of such a major departing from the apostolic faith was evidenced as the Roman Catholic church began to come into existence in the early 4th century, which forbids it's clergy to marry. This same church has other demonic doctrines such as transubstantiation, purgatory, indulgences, papal infallibility, Mary's perpetual virginity etc..

BillG · Feb 23, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:

Sleep well.

Sorry if I misunderstood?

What is there to misunderstand?

After am in talking to a female

GodsGrace101 · Feb 23, 2019

gb9 said:

Why is that mean?
Did I say someone here is like a dead sheep?

Sheep are found dead many times.
(in real life)

posthuman · Feb 23, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:

keep in mind we're talking about the good shepherd vs. the worthless ones here, in re: Zechariah 11

i'm glad you're putting thought into it

GodsGrace101 · Feb 23, 2019

BillG said:

Shaw. But it's you guys that make life SO DIFFICULT!
Just think....
No guy...no shirts to iron!
(but we love you anyway)

Tomorrow.

BillG · Feb 23, 2019

dcontroversal said:

Hmm not sure on that one.

I can get a Beano comic for you

GodsGrace101 · Feb 23, 2019

posthuman said:

Oh my gosh PH,,,
I was talking about REAL shepherding !!!
I got mixed up with real life around here.
Sorry....

heavenhelpimtired · Feb 23, 2019

UnderGrace said:

......... God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Romans 12:3 KJV

Do you think this means that everyone
Has faih?? Even an atheist....like maybe he has faith and doesn't know it

gb9 · Feb 23, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:

I know that.

I just do not think that putting pictures of dead animals to illustrate a point is necessary.

but, whatever. you know everything, including word definitions that not one other place defines that way.

GodsGrace101 · Feb 23, 2019

posthuman · Feb 23, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:

i got that now, still, it's useful

i mean, if it wasn't a useful analogy, why would Jesus be talking about these things using these analogies? i think He wants us to look at what we know from reality and see how to put it together with what He says about spiritual things. i just meant to say, we have to keep in mind that when we put Him in the analogy, He's not like ordinary people. so for example, like Nicodemus asking about being born again, saying what in the world?? climb back into my mother's womb or something?? we reach a point where there is absurdity - which doesn't necessarily mean that the analogy breaks, but possibly that here is where Christ in this role departs from where a human in that role peaks. it's still useful; Nicodemus' comment for example, brings to light that being reborn is not something that a person can accomplish for themselves; it has to be the action of God, from without, not the action of mankind from within.

heavenhelpimtired · Feb 23, 2019

dcontroversal said:

Wow...if it's leather bound I'd love to have one ...... I collect the old writers

posthuman · Feb 23, 2019

heavenhelpimtired said:

"For by the grace given me I say to every one of you" -- same verse.

is Paul addressing unbelievers, believers, or both at this point in the book? i think, clearly believers only. from Romans 1:7, he's writing to the church teaching doctrine, not evangelizing to people who reject Christ. "To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be his holy people"

need more evidence? "you faithless and perverse generation!" -- Matthew 17:17 -- Q.E.D.

heavenhelpimtired · Feb 23, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:

Good night ????? It's only 5:50 pm

posthuman · Feb 23, 2019

heavenhelpimtired said:

she's in Italy; it's midnight

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