Not By Works

[dcontroversal]

Here again you confuse matters.

You said what the member wrote is ignorant....
Could you explain why please. Again,,,I don't see the word "saved" anywhere...just wheat and tares.
Here's what the other member said: (@Argueless

Who will the angels WEED OUT of GOD'S KINGDOM? Aren't they supposed to belong to GOD'S kingdom first before they can be weeded out of it?


Seems to me like he's right. The field represents the world. The wheat and the tares are growing together. Jesus did speak a lot about the Kingdom of God being on earth. So if one is a tare and in the Kingdom of God....he will be weeded out.

Please explain your position better.

Are you really that dense or contentious..............I mean this is getting beyond stupid..........get some honesty or don't address me......EVER.........

 

[stonesoffire]

I'm just a babe who should probably be eating meat after 19 years of rebirth, but i would have to wonder then, why Christ would plainly state in his prayer that he DOES NOT pray for the world, but for those who the Father has given him out of the world. Help me out please.

I read some of your posts. I wouldn't call you a babe.

Scripture speaks of the called, chosen, and faithful. Then whosoevers....

I see this but I don't have a set opinion yet. And it's why I asked.

But, wasn't His prayer that we would be one with Him as He is with Father? That's not for anyone but His body.

 

[dcontroversal]

Good post...wish you did more of this.

I just want to say that we all sin...
David repented...he was sorry for his sin.

Isn't this the difference between Peter and Judas?

I do it all the time, you just don't listen and or remain blind to what I post because of your religious bias and or opinion Fran

and JUDAS was never saved.........get that through your head FRAN.....JUDAS NEVER believed............and was NEVER clean according to JESUS....start believing him over the priests and false teachers you listen to.

 

[dcontroversal]

GOOD POST!

Praise God for saving us! Can you mention some psalms were David's physical ailments are evidenced in?

Many of these works salvationists make the mistake of counting God out of the equation completely!

I have a little work to do outside and when I get back in will post a few.......if I don't forget hahaha as this thread moves like the speed of sound HAHH

 

[mailmandan]

I always use genuine faith as you know.

The reason being is that there are some on here who believe that we do not know what faith means and what it entails.

I made this point yesterday concerning belief.
I have friends who believe Jesus is an historical figure, therefore a belief of Jesus.
Yet it stops there. I even know a few who hope their good works will outweigh the bad ones, and then compare themselves against others.

Which is different from someone who believes in and upon Jesus for salvation, and that alone.

Now when we say that then we are accused of using that as an excuse to sin, sit back and do nothing and get into heaven.

Even though the term genuine faith is not used a faith that is genuine will bear fruit.

Amen! Well said. I’ve had discussions with such people whose belief/faith falls short of believing in/trusting in/placing faith in/upon Jesus Christ alone for salvation. There are many people who believe “mental assent” in the existence of Jesus and also in historical facts about Jesus, yet they fail to trust in Jesus as the all sufficient means of their salvation and instead trust in works for salvation.

 

[dcontroversal]

Do you think things would have been different for David had he rejected Nathan the prophet and refuse to repent?

Personally, the way the Psalms testify of his conviction, I believe God would have laid in on him so heavy that the end result would have been the same...WHY...because he was a man after God's own heart, plus it would be from his lineage the Lion of JUDAH would come..........and the fact that God had already prepared a sacrifice....the new born innocent son........

Regardless.........even if God would have killed him or had him killed under the law, he would not have lost his salvation.........

 

[heavenhelpimtired]

Exactly!!

Conversely how many works prove supposed "genuine faith?"

Every time I read scripture I read "faith" not genuine faith?

Faith is either something that person exercises or not, how does someone exercise something that is not genuine?

Can someone lose their faith?

 

[stonesoffire]

There is a difference between Godly sorrow and worldly sorrow.
What I don't understand about Judas is this:
He was so sorry for what he did that he killed himself...be it from the tree or from the bridge,,we really can't know.

When he realized what he did to Jesus, he just couldn't live with it.
Could you imagine having a best friend that you shared your life with for 3 years killed because of something you did?

I'm not a determinist in any way, shape or form....
however, I do believe that God is sovereign and He could have chosen special persons for special reasons....Mary, for instance.

I know that Judas HAD to betray Jesus...Jesus said it would have been better had he never been born because of the reputation he'd have to bear all throughout history and also because of the abandonment he'd feel (from God and the other Apostles).

However, he also went freely to the Sanhedrin...or did he?
We can't know everything about God.

But that God is deterministic should not be accepted.
It would mean that God caused the holocaust...
He caused all the murders that happened yesterday...
He causes sin and floods and hurricanes, etc.

This cannot be true of a loving God.

If satan entered Judas, and scripture says he did, don't you think he could of been driven by torment to kill himself?

 

[BillG]

Amen! Well said. I’ve had discussions with such people whose belief/faith falls short of believing in/trusting in/placing faith in/upon Jesus Christ alone for salvation. There are many people who believe “mental assent” in the existence of Jesus and also in historical facts about Jesus, yet they fail to trust in Jesus as the all sufficient means of their salvation and instead trust in works for salvation.

What I don't understand and maybe I'm being simple here.

But if I come to genuine faith in Jesus (sorry UG) but then rely on my works to save me then do I not negate faith in and upon Jesus for salvation.
It's like the cross was not sufficient and I have to add to it.
How can I do that?
I can't do it, if I could I would and if Jesus said I could he would have to us we could.

If we assume we could then would Jesus needed to have died in the cross?

 

[mailmandan]

What I don't understand and maybe I'm being simple here.

But if I come to genuine faith in Jesus (sorry UG) but then rely on my works to save me then do I not negate faith in and upon Jesus for salvation.
It's like the cross was not sufficient and I have to add to it.
How can I do that?
I can't do it, if I could I would and if Jesus said I could he would have to us we could.

If we assume we could then would Jesus needed to have died in the cross?

Amen! Christ’s finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed. (Romans 3:24-28)

 

[VCO]

What if the person does nothing are they still saved?

We as a NEW CREATION IN CHRIST, WILL produce some of the Fruit of the SPIRIT. It is second nature of our Born Again human spirit to respond in LOVE, to the needs of others. Haven't you ever bought a Sandwich for beggar on a street, simply because the LORD put it on your heart to do so, or helped a Neighbor in need, or sat with a senior extra long, because you sensed they just needed to talk. Those are the kind of things that CHRIST, considers to be ministering to others. I used make it a habit when the LORD put it on my heart, when I saw a particular type of needy people begging for food, of buying them a large size Hogue, so they can get 3 meals out of it. And when they went to thank me for it, I would tell them, "NO, Jesus told me to buy that for you, so you thank HIM."



Matthew 25:34-46 (HCSB)
34 Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you took care of Me; I was in prison and you visited Me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You something to drink?
38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or without clothes and clothe You?
39 When did we see You sick, or in prison, and visit You?’
40 “And the King will answer them, ‘I assure you: Whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.’
41 Then He will also say to those on the left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his angels!
42 For I was hungry and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty and you gave Me nothing to drink;
43 I was a stranger and you didn’t take Me in; I was naked and you didn’t clothe Me, sick and in prison and you didn’t take care of Me.’
44 “Then they too will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or without clothes, or sick, or in prison, and not help You?’
45 “Then He will answer them, ‘I assure you: Whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for Me either.’
46 “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

I do not see anyone with NO Fruit of the Spirit, being saved. Do YOU ? ? ?


Matthew 13:18-23 (HCSB)
18 “You, then, listen to the parable of the sower:
19 When anyone hears the word about the kingdom and doesn’t understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the one sown along the path.
20 And the one sown on rocky ground—this is one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy.
21 Yet he has no root in himself, but is short-lived. When pressure or persecution comes because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
22 Now the one sown among the thorns—this is one who hears the word, but the worries of this age and the seduction of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.
23 But the one sown on the good ground—this is one who hears and understands the word, who does bear fruit and yields: some 100, some 60, some 30 times ⌊what was sown⌋.”

My take on the Parable of the Sower, is UNFRUITFULLNESS, equates to NOT BORN AGAIN. I think that is why the Parable of the GATES, say that only a FEW enter in the right GATE, and a little lower in Mat Chapter 7, HE implies that the reason the MANY do not KNOW HIM, is they have NEVER established a Personal Relationship with Him.

Another related portion of Scripture is: 1 John 3:14-19. I do not see a CHRISTIAN without GODLY LOVE flowing out of HIM.

1 John 3:14-19 (HCSB)
14 We know that we have passed from death to life because we love our brothers. The one who does not love remains in death.
15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.
16 This is how we have come to know love: He laid down His life for us. We should also lay down our lives for our brothers.
17 If anyone has this world’s goods and sees his brother in need but closes his eyes to his ⌊need⌋—how can God’s love reside in him?
18 Little children, we must not love with word or speech, but with truth and action.
19 This is how we will know we belong to the truth and will convince our conscience in His presence,

 

[BillG]

Isaiah 55:1-4

An Invitation to Abundant Life
1 “Ho! Everyone who thirsts,
Come to the waters;
And you who have no money,
Come, buy and eat.
Yes, come, buy wine and milk
Without money and without price.
2 Why do you spend money for what is not bread,
And your wages for what does not satisfy?
Listen carefully to Me, and eat what is good,
And let your soul delight itself in abundance.
3 Incline your ear, and come to Me.
Hear, and your soul shall live;
And I will make an everlasting covenant with you—
The sure mercies of David.
4 Indeed I have given him as a witness to the people,
A leader and commander for the people.

Wine and milk are symbols of complete satisfaction (v. 2). Not only does God’s salvation supply what is necessary for life, but it also provides what brings joy. You who have no money … buy expresses that salvation cannot be bought, but is a free gift for those who desire it (52:3; Deut. 8:3; Rom. 6:23).

 

[BillG]

I'm just a babe who should probably be eating meat after 19 years of rebirth, but i would have to wonder then, why Christ would plainly state in his prayer that he DOES NOT pray for the world, but for those who the Father has given him out of the world. Help me out please.

Firstly don't put yourself down.
There are many on here who will jump at the opportunity to do so.

We know that for God so loved the world that he gave his only son so that those who believe in him will be saved.

Now given the question you ask is it possible that

Jesus was actually praying specifically for his disciples . It does not implicate that He did not love the rest of the world, but He knew what was ahead for the disciples and was praying for extra strength for them.

So we know God so loved the world, God in the flesh came for the whole world.
So Jesus prayed for those given to him for the 3 years Jesus was on earth.
So he prayed for them knowing that he was going to ask them to go out to the world to preach the Gospel

 

[BillG]

If satan entered Judas, and scripture says he did, don't you think he could of been driven by torment to kill himself?

Hmm very interesting indeed.
Never thought about it this way.

I would like to ask the question though.

Can satan enter a believer?
We know he can deceive a believer, gain a foothold but enter one?

 

[posthuman]

The Bible teaches imo its a sin to be unemployed.

"If a man does not work, neither should he eat" <-

It says the same thing in the OT too, the principle is clear.

I WOULD LOVE TO BE WRONG ON THIS THOUGH. So bring it on brother Bill, make me feel better

if you are trying to find work, but haven't been able to -- would it still be sin?
that's not the same as sitting on your bum not even looking.

there's an interesting parallel: if we try to do good, but find ourselves unable to? if we repent in our hearts, but struggle in the flesh?

 

[posthuman]

My wife and many others have suggested unfortunately these forums take up too much time
with too little benefit. Maybe the focus we have is in the wrong place, and we waste too
much of our lives on things that are not significant.

I know 30 minutes can just go answering just one point, to be read by 2 people. Is that a good
thing or a foolish thing?

how long would a good shepherd spend seeking out one lost sheep?

 

[Hevosmies]

how long would a good shepherd spend seeking out one lost sheep?

Jesus is the best shepherd!

I love Jesus!

Some of these guys take God out the picture completely! It becomes just man doing this and not doing that. I believe its best to look at it from God's point of view!

 

[GodsGrace101]

You are excused this once for trying to use a "loving God would not" argument. Anyone who reads the Bible knows a lovign God WOULD indeed cast countless to hell, would indeed destroy the entire population of the earth save Noah's family etc.
Next time I respond to this argument I will type the same with even more !!!! marks. Be ready

The holocaust was started by wicked men. Out of the heart of man comes wickedness as Jesus teaches.
The Bible teaches God predestining things btw, so this isnt so much an argument with me, but with God. Did you know that God predestined a violent death for His own son? And im GLAD He did!

Acts 4:26-28
The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers were gathered together, against the Lord and against his Anointed’—
for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,
to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.

A loving God WOULD as we see above, and in Genesis 50:20! Dont let 21st century soft-christianity affect you!

Do you believe in original sin? Sin nature, whatever you wish to call it? If you do, then humans DONT NEED any "assistance" from any outside source to do evil, they are perfectly capable of doing it already.

You haven't answered my question or you don't understand it.

Let's try again:

1. God predestinates EVERYTHING.
2. Man has no free will,,,at least, not libertarian free will.
3. The holocaust happens.

If God predestinates EVERYTHING...doesn't He predestinate the holocaust?
If not, why not?

You said wicked men caused the holocaust....
God predestined these men to be wicked and to create the war ......

If God predesinates everything....

Everything means everything.

What is difficult to understand?
I'm not an emotional person when speaking theology.
You like Romans 8:29....

Go for it....

 

[GodsGrace101]

The field is the world.....FRAN....if yo cannot be honest with what is said and what Christ said himself, quit addressing me....I am sick to death of your complete dishonesty and stupid accusations like above!

Did I say it wasn't? Jesus clearly says it is. I always believe what Jesus says.
You're always in attack mode.
I hope everyone here sees this in you.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I am not even going to engage you any more on this set of verses other than to say....If you are too DENSE to deduce that they were never saved to begin with based upon JESUS saying HE NEVER KNEW THEM and or TOO dense to deduce and realize they were RELIGIOUSLY LOST MEN AND WOMEN BASED UPON and by their USE of LORD twice and the fact they have done MANY wonderful works in his name.......you really do not know as much as you think or you are as dishonest as they come........

Yeah.
I guess it's difficult to address the truth...

Some just listen to your empty words....
I, on the other hand,,,require some explanation..
which is never forthcoming from you.

When persons that know they're wrong are put up against a wall,
they go into attack mode.

That would be you right now.